Spin off from David gone dairying

wrangler

squinn2912 wrote: »

Congratulations a fantastic achievement! Best of luck with it all. Saw a fella Wilson on Ear to the Ground there this evening and it reminded me of this thread. Thanks for all the updates it’s been great reading about your journey.

Wilson is a neighbour , he is some worker he did all that building himself as well as working all over the place, he really has so little and yet so optimistic and proud of his herd, He works in the local grennans and it's lovely to listen to him.
Always think it's a good sign that he's not tractor mad ,that he actually likes farming for the stock.
Of course I think he's wasted to be thinking of farming.
He used to be feeding beef, but last january when he got his first cheque and only a few milking, he remarked that if he wanted that much money before he'd have to sell a bull, but this year he has the money and six or seven calves as well,
As i said before a lovely lad to talk to

morphy87

wrangler wrote: »

Wilson is a neighbour , he is some worker he did all that building himself as well as working all over the place, he really has so little and yet so optimistic and proud of his herd, He works in the local grennans and it's lovely to listen to him.
Always think it's a good sign that he's not tractor mad ,that he actually likes farming for the stock.
Of course I think he's wasted to be thinking of farming.
He used to be feeding beef, but last january when he got his first cheque and only a few milking, he remarked that if he wanted that much money before he'd have to sell a bull, but this year he has the money and six or seven calves as well,
As i said before a lovely lad to talk to

Saw him last night, I miss heard what he said, did he say he was milking 44 cows on 25 acres? It looked a fine setup for the money he spent, it was nice for a change to go and meet and talk to a small producer

wrangler

morphy87 wrote: »

Saw him last night, I miss heard what he said, did he say he was milking 44 cows on 25 acres? It looked a fine setup for the money he spent, it was nice for a change to go and meet and talk to a small producer

Yea, he's using a lot of meal and his uncle that was there is helping him with silage, I've no doubt he'll get a system for himself

Water John

Fair play to him, making his own choices. Think he said he aimed to get to 70 cows at some point. Really 70/80 cows should return a wage to a family. It is full time work for a family member plus.

Bass Reeves

Water John wrote: »

Fair play to him, making his own choices. Think he said he aimed to get to 70 cows at some point. Really 70/80 cows should return a wage to a family. It is full time work for a family member plus.

75 cows hitting 5500litres per head would leave a turnover of about 135k not Inc culls or calves. Say you managed to keep costs to 50k, it would leave 80k allowing you to take 20k out the side door, 20k for capital allowances investment and a 40k taxable Income. A land bank of 100+acres would be needed ideally a bit above that.

Water John

Bass Reeves wrote: »

75 cows hitting 5500litres per head would leave a turnover of about 135k not Inc culls or calves. Say you managed to keep costs to 50k, it would leave 80k allowing you to take 20k out the side door, 20k for capital allowances investment and a 40k taxable Income. A land bank of 100+acres would be needed ideally a bit above that.

Sorry Bass, not a chance of keeping costs to €0.125c/l Maybe make the €40K but no side door.

Mooooo

Bass Reeves wrote: »

75 cows hitting 5500litres per head would leave a turnover of about 135k not Inc culls or calves. Say you managed to keep costs to 50k, it would leave 80k allowing you to take 20k out the side door, 20k for capital allowances investment and a 40k taxable Income. A land bank of 100+acres would be needed ideally a bit above that.

Costs of 12c/ L??? Dreamland there I'm afraid....

Water John

€19/20c/l might be closer to the mark. I'm not criticising Bass who did put figures for discussion. An income around €35K.

Mooooo

Jjameson wrote: »

That’s all well and good but in a discussion it is courtesy to assert your argument with some figures. Talk in drystock terms. No land or self labour charge and Before capital expenses where is it at?

My costs, with no labour charge for myself or capital part of repayments were 26cent. Put in 40k wages it brings it to 30 cent. Capital portion of repayments would add another 3.5 to 4c and tax on top as they are post tax

Bass Reeves

Mooooo wrote: »

My costs, with no labour charge for myself or capital part of repayments were 26cent. Put in 40k wages it brings it to 30 cent. Capital portion of repayments would add another 3.5 to 4c and tax on top as they are post tax

I could nearly take 40k out of a 100acre drystock farm. I say that lad Wilson's costs are nearer 10c/L than 20c/L and they could be on the other side of 10c/L.
What is going out the side door

jaymla627

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I could nearly take 40k out of a 100acre drystock farm. I say that lad Wilson's costs are nearer 10c/L than 20c/L and they could be on the other side of 10c/L.
What is going out the side door

You may give Jack Kennedy back his calculator and get one that works

Water John

If Wilson is feeding high ration rates, his costs are high.

Say my name

Water John wrote: »

If Wilson is feeding high ration rates, his costs are high.

If Wilson is bringing in silage and zero grazing grass from his uncle's farm and carting out slurry, his costs are higher..

jntsnk

Time away from family and Working weekends . You’d want to be making more than 40k

grassroot1

Would 80 milking cows give you a take home income of 40k per annum?

morphy87

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I could nearly take 40k out of a 100acre drystock farm. I say that lad Wilson's costs are nearer 10c/L than 20c/L and they could be on the other side of 10c/L.
What is going out the side door

Would you mind me asking what do ye mean here by going out the side door?

richie123

Mooooo wrote: »

My costs, with no labour charge for myself or capital part of repayments were 26cent. Put in 40k wages it brings it to 30 cent. Capital portion of repayments would add another 3.5 to 4c and tax on top as they are post tax

Most dairy men i know are incorporated now.
You need a serious tax bill to even consider company status.
A serious tax bill means decent profits in the first place.

jaymla627

richie123 wrote: »

Most dairy men i know are incorporated now.
You need a serious tax bill to even consider company status.
A serious tax bill means decent profits in the first place.

Its lads jumping up from say 90 to 300 cows over a few years that are having to go company with stock relief been only at 25%, was blessed here that I got the five years of full stock relief before they brought in the 75k cap but if I hadn't of been able to get it I would of had crazy tax bills, say you go from 100 cows to 150 cows in one year if valued correctly 1300 ×50 is 65k less 25% leaves you with a on paper profit of 48k before you take a penny for yourself

Mooooo

richie123 wrote: »

Most dairy men i know are incorporated now.
You need a serious tax bill to even consider company status.
A serious tax bill means decent profits in the first place.

Was asked to give figures, gave mine. Thinking costs can be at 12c/ L is dreamland stuff. I'm sure lads are producing for lower costs than me but not 14c less. Re company status there is a lot more to take into account particularly if repayments etc are there to be made. Every farm would be at different stages.

straight

richie123 wrote: »

Most dairy men i know are incorporated now.
You need a serious tax bill to even consider company status.
A serious tax bill means decent profits in the first place.

That's profit before wages for yourself and loan repayments? Profit my hole.

Bass Reeves

morphy87 wrote: »

Would you mind me asking what do ye mean here by going out the side door?

Today I took the dog to the vet, the bill went on the farm account, the kids were paid wages that helped put them through college, there was 10k plus going out the side door at the time. I know a lad that wrote off 50 - 70% of a landscaping and doing up his drive.

That the side door similar to a lot of other businesses.

richie123

straight wrote: »

That's profit before wages for yourself and loan repayments? Profit my hole.

Yes it would be.

Hey u should try suckling or fattening cattle ...be some giving out done then

morphy87

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Today I took the dog to the vet, the bill went on the farm account, the kids were paid wages that helped put them through college, there was 10k plus going out the side door at the time. I know a lad that wrote off 50 - 70% of a landscaping and doing up his drive.

That the side door similar to a lot of other businesses.

I know what you mean now, like putting the expense of getting your car fixed or buying Tyres against your farm account

Bass Reeves

morphy87 wrote: »

I know what you mean now, like putting the expense of getting your car fixed or buying Tyres against your farm account

Some of them are allowable anyway but ya you are on the right track

kerryjack

jntsnk wrote: »

Time away from family and Working weekends . You’d want to be making more than 40k

Don't think you can say a lad working outside and in the milking parlour is time away from his family, like compare him to a man that's heading to dublin or London for a weeks work well that's a different story all together and if you are not happy with 40K a year you would want to have a look at your outgoings. I can live like a king on half that, I see it at work and lads chasing there tails for more hours more money, stressed to the limit paying massive mortgages and have serious out goings just to keep everything paid. These big houses you see scattered around the country are empty most of the day with 2 parents working and children in child care and all to pay for the big house and the 2 new cars. If that's progress I don't want to know about it.
Now to get back on topic great tread david great to see everything coming together for you.

K.G.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I could nearly take 40k out of a 100acre drystock farm. I say that lad Wilson's costs are nearer 10c/L than 20c/L and they could be on the other side of 10c/L.
What is going out the side door

Interested to hear the figures on 40 k from a 100 acres drystock farm.with the week we ve had i d consider changing

Siamsa Sessions

kerryjack wrote: »

Don't think you can say a lad working outside and in the milking parlour is time away from his family, like compare him to a man that's heading to dublin or London for a weeks work well that's a different story all together and if you are not happy with 40K a year you would want to have a look at your outgoings. I can live like a king on half that, I see it at work and lads chasing there tails for more hours more money, stressed to the limit paying massive mortgages and have serious out goings just to keep everything paid. These big houses you see scattered around the country are empty most of the day with 2 parents working and children in child care and all to pay for the big house and the 2 new cars. If that's progress I don't want to know about it.
Now to get back on topic great tread david great to see everything coming together for you.

Great post - agree 100%.

Big stress for a big house that’s empty all day and silent in the evening coz the kids and their parents have nothing in common apart from expensive phones

Bass Reeves

K.G. wrote: »

Interested to hear the figures on 40 k from a 100 acres drystock farm.with the week we ve had i d consider changing

I did not say I could take 40 k I said I could take nearly 40k. Last year on about 60 acres I got over 70 cattle off with a gross 12 month margin of 650 euro. Animals that went off grass were leaving an average net margin of 300 euro. I killed about 10 out of the shed half of them left nothing and the rest left an average of 200 ish. Any cattle left next year that will not finish within 6 weeks of being housed are going back out to grass the following spring.

As I have said here often feeding ration is break even at best. On a 100 acre farm if I could finish 100 cattle. Thats 30 k. I do not spend the day around marts but if I did I expect to squeeze the margin a bit more.

Feeding cattle in a shed is a waste of time. I know it and got caught this year as I made a few bob from it last year. The simple fact if a dairy farmer can only extract 4Ok from a 70-80 cow operation he be as well off in dry stock and finding a job.especially if on decent land.

I say it again feeding ration is losing money it as simple as f@@king that. If you turn cattle now you must go out and bid against summer grazer's to replace them. So you end up losing on winter finished cattle and buying overvalued cattle to replace them. You are being a busy f@@king idiot

tanko

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I did not say I could take 40 k I said I could take nearly 40k. Last year on about 60 acres I got over 70 cattle off with a gross 12 month margin of 650 euro. Animals that went off grass were leaving an average net margin of 300 euro. I killed about 10 out of the shed half of them left nothing and the rest left an average of 200 ish. Any cattle left next year that will not finish within 6 weeks of being housed are going back out to grass the following spring.

As I have said here often feeding ration is break even at best. On a 100 acre farm if I could finish 100 cattle. Thats 30 k. I do not spend the day around marts but if I did I expect to squeeze the margin a bit more.

Feeding cattle in a shed is a waste of time. I know it and got caught this year as I made a few bob from it last year. The simple fact if a dairy farmer can only extract 4Ok from a 70-80 cow operation he be as well off in dry stock and finding a job.especially if on decent land.

I say it again feeding ration is losing money it as simple as f@@king that. If you turn cattle now you must go out and bid against summer grazer's to replace them. So you end up losing on winter finished cattle and buying overvalued cattle to replace them. You are being a busy f@@king idiot

Can a separate thread be set up for this shyte???

Bass Reeves

tanko wrote: »

Can a separate thread be set up for this shyte???

No because there is 2-3 threads going at present on dairy type start ups. There is dairy farmers claiming that the net margin per cow is back down at 500/ cow or less. If you look my posting on both threads I am pointing out the pro and cons of both compared to drystock. Any decent dairy operation should be aiming toward a few hundred per cow more than that. David has the scale and numbers to make it pay. The lad Wilson is aiming for a scale that may make it pay as well running a low cost operation.

On the other hand if you are 50 cows or less or depending on numbers on a small platform it takes a certain skillset to manage these. A lot of these lads with smaller numbers would be as well off with a job and a drystock operation. Milking cows and working is not really sustainable with a family as in most cases the wife will be working as welll

squinn2912

tanko wrote: »

Can a separate thread be set up for this shyte???

No call for that it’s only the man’s opinion. I wanna hear more from David too though

richie123

tanko wrote: »

Can a separate thread be set up for this shyte???

Good man tanko great contribution.

blue5000

It has been suggested that some posts are off topic in the dairy setup thread so moving them here.

White Clover

BASS REEVES "Any cattle left next year that will not finish within 6 weeks of being housed are going back out to grass the following spring"

Bass, I struggle to get my head around statements like this.
To my mind, drawing meal out to cattle in fields in September and October is lunacy.
I cant see how cattle would thrive and lay down fat.
The grass is basically water at that time of year bar an Indian summer. The cattle will in general be unsettled due to waiting around for meal and often bad weather.
They will plough around troughs and it is highly dangerous.
What is wrong at housing finishing cattle on October 1st on good silage and 3kg meal. After 80 days the cattle are 100kg heavier. Fair enough they will eat 2 bales each but the increased thrive will offset a lot of the cost of that, the place isn't ploughed around troughs and there's no chance of being knocked and trampled while over and back to the jeep for bags of meal 3 or 4 times each day. The grass that these cattle haven't trampled is available for younger stock.

Dunedin

Water John wrote: »

€19/20c/l might be closer to the mark. I'm not criticising Bass who did put figures for discussion. An income around €35K.

As a matter of interest what costs are included in the 19/20c/l. Is it every single cost incurred on the farm from meal to diesel, insurance, depreciation, hedge cutting etc.

Genuine question as apart from relief milking 30 cows for a couple of neighbors 25 years ago, my €€ diary knowledge is limited

Water John

Dunedin, mine is too now. It varies quite a bit depending on each farm.
I can tell you the fella with 30 cows couldn't afford to pay you anything nowadays. Some lads I know are getting by with from 45 cows up, running tidy ops.

cute geoge

No way would 20 cent/litre cost cover any land rentel costs,machinery purchase ,building capital repayments or farm labour .20 cent might or might not cover every other costs

Mooooo

26 cent was all costs excluding a wage for myself or the capital portion of repayments. Fcukall out the side door as Bass puts it as well

Bass Reeves

White Clover wrote: »

BASS REEVES "Any cattle left next year that will not finish within 6 weeks of being housed are going back out to grass the following spring"

Bass, I struggle to get my head around statements like this.
To my mind, drawing meal out to cattle in fields in September and October is lunacy.
I cant see how cattle would thrive and lay down fat.
The grass is basically water at that time of year bar an Indian summer. The cattle will in general be unsettled due to waiting around for meal and often bad weather.
They will plough around troughs and it is highly dangerous.
What is wrong at housing finishing cattle on October 1st on good silage and 3kg meal. After 80 days the cattle are 100kg heavier. Fair enough they will eat 2 bales each but the increased thrive will offset a lot of the cost of that, the place isn't ploughed around troughs and there's no chance of being knocked and trampled while over and back to the jeep for bags of meal 3 or 4 times each day. The grass that these cattle haven't trampled is available for younger stock.

Ya there will be a certain amount that will finish. Problem is it is at best bullocks are converting at about 10-1/kg of DM some will be 13+-1. But at 10-1 with ration prices at 270/ton it costing 270 to put on a kg of LW. Even at 60%, conversion to DW it costing 450/kg of DW to produce. At a conversion rate of 13-1 and 55% DW conversion you are looking at over 6/kg of DW.

It's a mugs game finishing cattle indoors at present beef prices versus ration prices. The killer is if you need to replace these cattle in the spring to turn again in mid late summer. I aim to get some of those cattle onto ration earlier and kill off grass. Even throwing cattle into the shed in late September to finish before mid/late November is ok. But beyond that forget about it. Processor's are not paying a viable price for feeding cattle beyond that.

Definately there is no point in spending money buying those 500kg plus bullocks and heifers ......of any breed... And feeding them for 100+days is not viable. There is no margin in it. At present prices you need to be buying those nice Continental bullocks at 1.8-1.9/kg to leave a margin to winter finish them at present.

Siamsa Sessions

Apologies for the off-topic comment on this spin-off thread but I just watched that guy Wilson on Ear to the Ground on the RTE player.

It's him who should be on the front of the IFJ "Dairy Magazine". He's a man that knows every one of his cows and is a farmer rather than merely the owner of a "dairy business".

straight

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Apologies for the off-topic comment on this spin-off thread but I just watched that guy Wilson on Ear to the Ground on the RTE player.

It's him who should be on the front of the IFJ "Dairy Magazine". He's a man that knows every one of his cows and is a farmer rather than merely the owner of a "dairy business".

He was doing fine until he said he hopes to get by on 100 cows in the future. Too much work in 100 cows for just getting by.

K.G.

Mooooo wrote: »

26 cent was all costs excluding a wage for myself or the capital portion of repayments. Fcukall out the side door as Bass puts it as well

And this year theres a few nasty jumps in feed,fert and diesel to name a few..some seem to think that dairy lads on here are pretending theres no money on dairying but.the harsh reality is margin is dropping all the time and will continue to do so.its the pig game volume instead of margin.100 cows is the 30 cows of 20 years ago

straight

Jjameson wrote: »

During the drought of 18 while comparing notes with a dairy farming neighbour, I was feeding bullocks around 6 kg of meal to try get them out of the place. I was losining money. He was putting a little more into cows and getting around 3 times that in milk.
Milk isn’t easy money or big by any other standard but compared to any other farming enterprise it is the only show in town.

It's very expensive to get set up at the correct level for compliance, ease and comfort. Once you get that out of the way and you don't mind the work you will do fine. Alot easier ways to earn a living though so you would want to be into it.

jaymla627

Jjameson wrote: »

During the drought of 18 while comparing notes with a dairy farming neighbour, I was feeding bullocks around 6 kg of meal to try get them out of the place. I was losining money. He was putting a little more into cows and getting around 3 times that in milk.
Milk isn’t easy money or big by any other standard but compared to any other farming enterprise it is the only show in town.

Alot of men with the place mortgaged to the hilt in the hope of earning a bit the average industrial wage, while working twice the hours isn't the most attractive proposition in the world to be fair

cute geoge

Ye think there is no other cost in dairying beside fert. and meal .Any dairy man can tell you margin is getting smaller every year .Replacement cost of cows is a big cost overlooked by people on the outside another big one is contractor cost .The amount of soiled water to be collected and spread is massive not to mind it seems if you have concrete roadways you might have to collect this soiled water from now on and the list does go .For example I was talking to neighbour with 100 cows well set up no borrowings with newish tractor and tank ,he gets a young lad to drive tractor at slurry .Anyway it was always E80cash/handy day,this year he demanded E100/day as well as breaking a water trough .The Dairy man gave it to the young lad anyway but said he was working longer hours himself and he would not clear 100 himself every day!!!

mr.stonewall

cute geoge wrote: »

Ye think there is no other cost in dairying beside fert. and meal .Any dairy man can tell you margin is getting smaller every year .Replacement cost of cows is a big cost overlooked by people on the outside another big one is contractor cost .The amount of soiled water to be collected and spread is massive not to mind it seems if you have concrete roadways you might have to collect this soiled water from now on and the list does go .For example I was talking to neighbour with 100 cows well set up no borrowings with newish tractor and tank ,he gets a young lad to drive tractor at slurry .Anyway it was always E80cash/handy day,this year he demanded E100/day as well as breaking a water trough .The Dairy man gave it to the young lad anyway but said he was working longer hours himself and he would not clear 100 himself every day!!!

Can see a big rise coming with the contractor cost especially with silage having to be hauled larger distances back to yard. Could see see it coming on hourly charge for draws of over half a mile. The number of spfh harvester crews are dropping and the silage window is shorter

trg

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Apologies for the off-topic comment on this spin-off thread but I just watched that guy Wilson on Ear to the Ground on the RTE player.

It's him who should be on the front of the IFJ "Dairy Magazine". He's a man that knows every one of his cows and is a farmer rather than merely the owner of a "dairy business".

That's mighty condescending on your part.

Farming is a hobby for some, but for many it simply must be run as a business especially if you have bank commitments and you depend on your farm to put food on the table.

jaymla627

mr.stonewall wrote: »

Can see a big rise coming with the contractor cost especially with silage having to be hauled larger distances back to yard. Could see see it coming on hourly charge for draws of over half a mile. The number of spfh harvester crews are dropping and the silage window is shorter

Bought alot of gear here the past few years to take everything in house bar silage with a wagon and rake hired in, keep getting told I'm stone mad, but when you see the inflation year on year with machinery it's crazy, alot of my gear has appreciate in value

Siamsa Sessions

trg wrote: »

That's mighty condescending on your part.

Farming is a hobby for some, but for many it simply must be run as a business especially if you have bank commitments and you depend on your farm to put food on the table.

Sorry if you saw it like that. It wasn’t meant as a slight on farmers, whatever we call ourselves. What irks me is the official advice that we should look at farming as just another business.

Bass Reeves

K.G. wrote: »

And this year theres a few nasty jumps in feed,fert and diesel to name a few..some seem to think that dairy lads on here are pretending theres no money on dairying but.the harsh reality is margin is dropping all the time and will continue to do so.its the pig game volume instead of margin.100 cows is the 30 cows of 20 years ago

The dearer ration gets the better. We can grow grass relatively cheaply. A 40-50 euro a ton rise in grains is adding 50+c/head every day to costs in feedlots accross the world. Similar with milk this is hitting indoor milking more than NZ and ourselves. They will suffer with fertlizer costs every bit as much as us if not more. I hope it lasts 3-4 years. Looking at the figures for the Pallaskenry herd they are out on grass since start of Feb, diet is 9 kgs grass, 2 kgs silage and 3 kgs ration. On them figures they are probably feeding around 500 kgs/ year to each cow.

I think you are wrong about equating a lad with 30 cows 20 years to a hundred nowaday. I say the lad with 50-60 20 years ago was similar. Biggest problem is capital spend at present a lot of lads have expanded maybe a tad too fast. Too many lads have not done the figures on rented ground especially if it's far from the MP and they have not allow for labour costs when they are exceed 100 cows.

I still stand by my figures for a lad milking 80 cows on 100 acres owned in a block if he was operating similar to Wilson. The key is cost control. Most lads will not do a cost benefit analysis on any projects. They just plough ahead and specially if it's saving tax I'm the short term

jaymla627

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The dearer ration gets the better. We can grow grass relatively cheaply. A 40-50 euro a ton rise in grains is adding 50+c/ day to costs in feedlots accross the works. Similar with milk this is hitting indoor milking more than NZ and ourselves. They will suffer with fertlizer costs every bit as much as us. I hope it lasts 3-4 years. Looking at the figures for the Pallaskenry herd they are out on grass since start of Feb, diet is 9 kgs grass, 2 kgs silage and 3 kgs ration. On them figures they are probably feeding around 500 kgs/ year to each cow.

I think you are wrong about equating a lad with 30 cows 20 years to a hundred nowaday. I say the lad with 50-60 20 years ago was similar. Biggest problem is capital spend at present a lot of lads have expanded maybe a tad too fast. Too many lads have not done the figures on rented ground especially if it's far from the MP and they have not allow for labour costs when they are exceed 100 cows.

I still stand by my figures for a lad milking 80 cows on 100 acres. If he was operating similar to Wilson. The key is cost control. Most lads will not do a cost benefit analysis on any projects. They just plough ahead and specially if it's saving tax I'm the short term

I'd be taking anything the monks put out as been extremely economically with the truth, they probably easily have north of a million gone into the place the past two years also