Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

suicide_circus

TonyMaloney wrote: »

Have you got anyone credible for me?

as if anyone gives a fiddlers who you personally find credible.

paddyisreal

TonyMaloney wrote: »

No.

It's just that John McGuirk, that sports journalist and Ivan Yates are all renound for talking ****e, and it's no different in this instance.

Have you got anyone credible for me?

Just to humour you off the top of my head Paul moynagh

https://www.newstalk.com/news/no-evidence-lockdown-can-eliminate-coronavirus-1091759

TonyMaloney

suicide_circus wrote: »

as if anyone gives a fiddlers who you personally find credible.

Oh I'm sure you don't, but it must be a pain in the hole for yiz that the most prominent people that support your argument are a bunch of unqualified, widely disliked charlatans and weirdos.

normanoffside

TonyMaloney wrote: »

No.

It's just that John McGuirk, that sports journalist and Ivan Yates are all renound for talking ****e, and it's no different in this instance.

Have you got anyone credible for me?

You'll have to add Kieran Cuddihy to your list

https://twitter.com/NewstalkFM/status/1373033539739000835

suicide_circus

TonyMaloney wrote: »

Oh I'm sure you don't, but it must be a pain in the hole for yiz that the most prominent people that support your argument are a bunch of unqualified, widely disliked charlatans and weirdos.

Some of the best people i know are widely disliked

gozunda

Locotastic wrote: »

For those following the 5km rule it makes little sense that in built up areas you have people crowded into limited amenities.

For example I can't visit a normally isolated local amenity that's about 1.5km from my home as it is completely overrun with people. It wouldn't be like that usually and is only apparent during lockdown.

People are still visiting beauty spots, there is very little to stop people and some are willing to take the fine and go on their way.

I believe that is one of the drawbacks s of built up areas. That said gardai have limited access at busy times to some places. But I'd expect much of it is the majority of people all going at the same time to the nearest park or wherever rather than taking advantage of quite periods.

Funny thing is the majority seem to be observing the 5 km restriction. With a recent survey showing over 90% of people are observing it all / most of the time.

https://www.thejournal.ie/poll-are-you-still-adhering-to-the-level-5-restrictions-5382680-Mar2021/

paddyisreal

TonyMaloney wrote: »

Oh I'm sure you don't, but it must be a pain in the hole for yiz that the most prominent people that support your argument are a bunch of unqualified, widely disliked charlatans and weirdos.

Paul moynagh unqualified?
Cuddihy was a solicitor I think?
Yeats was minister of agriculture during the bse crisis so probably more qualified than most on dealing with emergency situations

You must do better if you are going to throw out sweeping statements.

suicide_circus

Consider this.

It's possible that lockdown is the best thing to do on paper and simultaneously for it to be progressively less and less effective.

ArthurDayne

TonyMaloney wrote: »

He bigs up the portuguese experience, neglecting to mention that they've had a truly punishing time in the last few months. Over 12,000 dead from covid since December. They're now among the very worst affected countries on the planet.
They had to seek international help for patients that needed ICU, flying doctors and equipment in from Germany, and sending patients to Austria.

To get things under control they had a far tougher lockdown than we've ever seen that lasted months.

He neglects all of this, and then goes on to misrepresent what the WHO said about lockdowns.

At this point I turned off the interview as he's not only just pointlessly angry, he's very dishonest.

If he had some reasonable point later on in the interview, by all means bring it to the table, but from what I can see he's just a shouty pillock.

It was John McGuirk's nonsense last week. This week it's an angry sports journalist. Slim pickings.

But Tony, do you not think though (by those numbers you quote from Portugal) — the very argument one can present in favour of lockdown can just as easily be used to to demonstrate its downside and, perhaps, even futility?

Portugal went for a strict lockdown early on and was lauded and indeed the Spain / Portugal dichotomy was held up as the bad practice / good practice dichotomy. So what did the lauded Portuguese strategy achieve? To analogise — they effectively built a massive dam, where the potential for a truly rapid spread of the virus grows and grows (both in terms of public morale and the fact that the virus has not run much of a course). But..the inevitable effect of lockdown (as we saw here and all over Europe), was that a jaded, depressed, lonely and frustrated population would seek some form of meaning and joy in life by at least getting home for Christmas or at least just seeing people — because that’s just what humans do. Like all policies, theirs was eventually susceptible to the imperfect (even selfish) but nonetheless inevitable imprint of human nature.

And so, we take the supposedly monstrous / eugenicist / senocidal / cold-hearted / ghoulish / ghastly / evil strategy employed in Sweden and we see something like just under 14,000 Covid deaths in 12 months . . . . . and then we look at Portugal which has almost emulated that (with a similar population) in what, 3 months? So yeah, to be honest I didn’t listen to that radio link or whatever it was, but it seems a little odd that you don’t seem to view the numbers you mention there as worthy of scrutiny (even if you just wanted to engage in a bit of good old Devil’s Advocacy.)

DTownD

TonyMaloney wrote: »

No.



Have you got anyone credible for me?

Dr Jack Lambert - infectious disease professor and consultant at the Mater Hospitlal.

paddyisreal

paddyisreal wrote: »

Just to humour you off the top of my head Paul moynagh

https://www.newstalk.com/news/no-evidence-lockdown-can-eliminate-coronavirus-1091759

Have you read the opinions of Paul Moynagh post October 2020? Lots of people believed they wouldn’t be required back then, who have since changed their view

DTownD

DTownD wrote: »

Dr Jack Lambert - infectious disease professor and consultant at the Mater Hospitlal.

Lamberts views are in fact far closer to the isag, than anything to be seen on this thread.

RobitTV

June is looking like a possible Level 3

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1372998233715269639

DTownD

Deleted User wrote: »

Lamberts views are in fact far closer to the isag, than anything to be seen on this thread.

Definitely not. Dr Lambert believes lockdowns don't work (he's said it hundreds of times) and we need a living with covid strategy.

To quote him - "the State should be “finding ways to keep the virus at bay, not to count the numbers and to threaten lockdown measures which cause further erosions to our already fragile society”.

This is what the reasonable anti lockdown people on this thread have been saying.

paddyisreal

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Have you read the opinions of Paul Moynagh post October 2020? Lots of people believed they wouldn’t be required back then, who have since changed their view

Yes, he also says the virus is more than likely seasonal and even yesterday he said pausing the astro zeneca was the wrong decision.

Don't Chute!

TonyMaloney wrote: »

He bigs up the portuguese experience, neglecting to mention that they've had a truly punishing time in the last few months. Over 12,000 dead from covid since December. They're now among the very worst affected countries on the planet.
They had to seek international help for patients that needed ICU, flying doctors and equipment in from Germany, and sending patients to Austria.

To get things under control they had a far tougher lockdown than we've ever seen that lasted months.

He neglects all of this, and then goes on to misrepresent what the WHO said about lockdowns.

At this point I turned off the interview as he's not only just pointlessly angry, he's very dishonest.

If he had some reasonable point later on in the interview, by all means bring it to the table, but from what I can see he's just a shouty pillock.

It was John McGuirk's nonsense last week. This week it's an angry sports journalist. Slim pickings.

You Boggles and Raind have been proving his point brilliantly all morning. Anyone with even a slightly alternative opinion is immediately shot down. Well done lads!

DTownD

DTownD wrote: »

Definitely not. Dr Lambert believes lockdowns don't work (he's said it hundreds of times) and we need a living with covid strategy.

To quote him - "the State should be “finding ways to keep the virus at bay, not to count the numbers and to threaten lockdown measures which cause further erosions to our already fragile society”.

This is what the reasonable anti lockdown people on this thread have been saying.

The reasonable anti lockdown people are becoming few and far between. The reasoned views looking for different way of achieving the same outcome that accord with lambert have disappeared

I feel for business owners who tried to do things by the book and put their own money into trying to keep going.
Hindsight is wonderful obviously and it turns out the best thing to do would have been to strip everything out and let the "business" go to the wall, be better off financially and just start over. Unfortunately plenty have probably put that money into keeping things afloat and won't have start-over money available.

DTownD

Deleted User wrote: »

The reasonable anti lockdown people are becoming few and far between. The reasoned views looking for different way of achieving the same outcome that accord with lambert have disappeared

Lambert and other experts like him predicted this frustration and fatigue when lockdowns are extended for long periods of time. They don't work and cause more harm than good.

Lambert has nothing in common with the ZeroCovid crowd and it's disingenuous to link him with ISAG.

The unreasonable thing is the restrictions we are under and the people who blindly support them.

BrianD3

Just saw this in the Indo
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/lifting-of-5km-exercise-limit-and-the-phased-reopening-of-building-activity-now-on-table-40218458.html

The National Public Health Emergency Team (Nphet) are also working on new guidelines for the so-called ‘cocooners’ who have been advised to stay at home for most of the past year.

It is understood new guidance will allow fully vaccinated over-70s, who are two weeks on from their second dose, to avail of the freedoms given to the wider population.

The terminology here is all wrong and I think shows how this nonsense is affecting people's thought process. A change in guidance for the over 70s group does not constitute "allowing" them to do something.

I thought we had gotten over the implication that cocooning was a requirement for the over 70s.

Are we going to see more spin from the government about easing restrictions that aren't actually restrictions to make it seem as as they are responding to people's concerns.

As for freedoms "given" to the wider population - so the prospect of being allowed to travel more than 5 km from my home for exercise is something that will/might be "given" to me is it? Woopee :rolleyes:

DTownD

https://twitter.com/temennuconsult/status/1373260428638310400?s=20

Interesting graph on increased mortality...particularly Sweden. Lockdowns work?

DTownD

DTownD wrote: »

Lambert and other experts like him predicted this frustration and fatigue when lockdowns are extended for long periods of time. They don't work and cause more harm than good.

Lambert has nothing in common with the ZeroCovid crowd and it's disingenuous to link him with ISAG.

The unreasonable thing is the restrictions we are under and the people who blindly support them.

He wants the same outcome. As few deaths as possible. He believes there was a different route that could have been taken. The thread wants everything open today.

Trouble is some take the reasonable opinions of the likes of lambert and moynagh and twist them into the rabid anti lockdown agenda. Lambert believes a system of chasing down the virus could have been implemented without lockdowns- a kind of Swedish/ Taiwan hybrid model maybe. Reasonable position, haven’t seen it anywhere though. Moynagh is expressing the view that the virus is seasonal, certainly will happen, Italian evidence suggests this may be premature however. For the virus to become a seasonal cold enough of the population need to have been exposed through vaccination or prior infection.

The arguments of Monaghan and Lambert are looking for a different way and represent the reasonable arguments with used to exist, not to open up everything immediately

RobitTV

Scenes from the London protest this afternoon

https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1373285285740576775
https://twitter.com/BreesAnna/status/1373283996176617476

RobitTV

This is the kind of turnout we have not seen in the past

https://twitter.com/jakepainter2/status/1373282285060030468
https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1373279298833022981

Dutchboy352

RobitTV wrote: »

Scenes from the London protest this afternoon

https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1373285285740576775
https://twitter.com/BreesAnna/status/1373283996176617476

More than a few bruised heads are needed there irresponsible stuff

BrianD3

BrianD3 wrote: »

Just saw this in the Indo
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/lifting-of-5km-exercise-limit-and-the-phased-reopening-of-building-activity-now-on-table-40218458.html


The terminology here is all wrong and I think shows how this nonsense is affecting people's thought process. A change in guidance for the over 70s group does not constitute "allowing" them to do something.

I thought we had gotten over the implication that cocooning was a requirement for the over 70s.

Are we going to see more spin from the government about easing restrictions that aren't actually restrictions to make it seem as as they are responding to people's concerns.

As for freedoms "given" to the wider population - so the prospect of being allowed to travel more than 5 km from my home for exercise is something that will/might be "given" to me is it? Woopee :rolleyes:

Guidance for over 70’s during level 5 is no different really, apart from being allowed to form support bubbles, so would suggest this is a journalist misunderstanding something rather than anything else

RobitTV

Germany

https://twitter.com/athmrva/status/1373283651442515969
https://twitter.com/TheInsiderPaper/status/1373289998976450560

RobitTV

Netherlands
https://twitter.com/TheInsiderPaper/status/1373271630772891648

DTownD

Deleted User wrote: »

He wants the same outcome. As few deaths as possible. He believes there was a different route that could have been taken. The thread wants everything open today.

Trouble is some take the reasonable opinions of the likes of lambert and moynagh and twist them into the rabid anti lockdown agenda. Lambert believes a system of chasing down the virus could have been implemented without lockdowns- a kind of Swedish/ Taiwan hybrid model maybe. Reasonable position, haven’t seen it anywhere though. Moynagh is expressing the view that the virus is seasonal, certainly will happen, Italian evidence suggests this may be premature however. For the virus to become a seasonal cold enough of the population need to have been exposed through vaccination or prior infection.

The arguments of Monaghan and Lambert are looking for a different way and represent the reasonable arguments with used to exist, not to open up everything immediately

Most people n the thread don't want to open up everything immediately. We just want a plan to ease out of one of the longest, strictest lockdowns in the world, step by step.

Then there's the extremists on both sides including those who want more lockdown, harder lockdown to prevent any future lockdowns!

Elessar

RobitTV wrote: »

Germany

https://twitter.com/athmrva/status/1373283651442515969
https://twitter.com/TheInsiderPaper/status/1373289998976450560

Fair play to those people across Europe today protesting. Most people seem to be protesting peacefully, of course the media will only focus on the few violent protestors.

I called this months ago that the people of Europe won't take harsh restrictions lying down and will exercise their right to protest, while us Irish will happily do whatever we're told.