Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

Boggles

Riodej1578 wrote: »

Is this a post defending the gov/NPHET for how they have performed to date?

It's factual information about the goals set out in this phase of reopening and which ones have been achieved.

Or would you prefer if we just call politicians and NPHET names?

francogarbanzo

Boggles wrote: »

Do you think if we were still admitting 100-150 a day into hospitals that sending 700,000 indoors kids plus staff and all the associated outside contacts that would generate would have happened?

Do you think non covid health would have resumed if there was 200 odd people in ICU?

Do think visitation to care homes would have went ahead if their was no vaccine program for that cohort.

None of those arbitrary, they all measured.

Why was non-covid healthcare stopped? It's not because there were "so many people in ICU that resources needed to be diverted to those recoveries." It's because they deemed certain procedures non-essential in order to slow the spread. So, yes is the answer.

Stormyteacup

Boggles wrote: »

Do you think if we were still admitting 100-150 a day into hospitals that sending 700,000 indoors kids plus staff and all the associated outside contacts that would generate would have happened?

Do you think non covid health would have resumed if there was 200 odd people in ICU?

Do you think visitation to care homes would have went ahead if their was no vaccine program for that cohort.

None of those arbitrary, they all measured they are all tied in.

Nope - not measured by any metric other than ‘as low as possible’. Vaccinate all care homes and allow visits should be a lauded decision by those on the big bucks? A child could come up with that policy.

the kelt

Dempo1 wrote: »

Sick to the teeth of this ongoing comparisons with what other countries are doing, achieving, also this S***** talk about being number this, number that on various graphs comparing numbers to other EU countries. Not that long ago when NPHET telling us we were brilliant, how did that end? Now they are back to the same S****.

Each country is very very different and we can hardly stand tall with our health systems abject failure, most notably the Vaccine Roll out and I'm not just referring to supply, antiquated IT systems, minimal work being done on Sundays and the shocking ineptitude of both Senior HSE management and a hapless "I know best Health Minister"

We are were we are, Vacinnes will eventually reach every cohort, patience, patience, patience is required.

Yep,

The funniest comparison with other countries is the one where "no point in comparing us to Sweden, we are too different etc etc"

And invariably a few posts later we get "but Brazil, look at Brazil, we could definitely be like them if we arent careful"

Boggles

francogarbanzo wrote: »

Why was non-covid healthcare stopped? It's not because there were "so many people in ICU that resources needed to be diverted to those recoveries." It's because they deemed certain procedures non-essential in order to slow the spread. So, yes is the answer.

So you would willingly have surgery if there was no critical care bed for you to recover in?

That's why doctors make that decision for you.

Boggles

Stormyteacup wrote: »

Nope - not measured by any metric other than ‘as low as possible’. Vaccinate all care homes and allow visits should be a lauded decision by those on the big bucks? A child could come up with that policy.

Of course it measured, the charge against NPHET is they are too conservative. Or are they a special type of erratic conservative?

The goals set out in this reopening phase have been achieved, that is an actual fact.

Isn't it?

Penfailed

Whatsisname wrote: »

Except over 50% of the adult population didn't have atleast one dose of protection then.

That's a different (but valid) point entirely.

francogarbanzo

Boggles wrote: »

So you would willingly have surgery if there was no critical care bed for you to recover in?

That's why doctors make that decision for you.

I have to recover in a critical care bed after a cancer screening?

FintanMcluskey

Klonker wrote: »

Some scutter posted here this morning.

Me driving my car more than 5km somehow leads to more spread of the virus.

Simple question of what percentage of hospitalised cases weren't admitted because of covid (eg admitted for something else and tested positive in hospital or picked it up in hospital and tested positive) and the answer giving is less than 1% of total cases as if that's anyway related to what was asked or in any way relevant. Might as well say than 0.001% of the worlds population picked up the virus in Irish hospitals.

There's no point even engaging with these posters.

In the same way an anti-vaccer follows science, someone who claims the 5km rule is beneficial is following a similar science.

Just like a minuscule number of people get serious side effects of vaccines, a minuscule number of cases were prevented by withholding people within 5km.

Vaccines are for the greater good and allowing people freedom past 5km of their homes is beneficial from a physical and mental health point of view.

It would be for the greater good

BlaktainPicard

Do you think this scenario is possible.
Imagine a new variant takes over that is less lethal than flu but a lot more transmissable.

This explodes next autumn - countries go into lockdown yes or no ?

I think yes as the momentum is with restrictions being so easy now, objectivity and actual danger won't come into it, they'll just obsess over "CASE NUMBERS" and the lunacy continues.

Stormyteacup

Boggles wrote: »

Of course it measured, the charge against NPHET is they are too conservative. Or are they a special type of erratic conservative?

The goals set out in this reopening phase have been achieved, that is an actual fact.

Isn't it?

They have. But not by any measured approach. They bungled their way to here with a ‘wait and see’ attitude as pressure mounted and they were forced into action.

And if compliance wasn’t dropping re distance restrictions, and pressure mounting there too - I guarantee they would keep 5km limit for six weeks after 5th April.

JRant

Russman wrote: »

I totally agree with you here. Likewise I live in the foothills of the Dublin mountains and could probably cycle 100km up there and meet less people than I would on a walk in Marlay Park which is maybe a km from me.
However government can't really legislate for every individual case can it ? If they wanted a distance restriction they had to pick a number, it could have been 2, it could have been 10, they picked 5.
People are on here saying everybody knows at this stage to keep their distance - if thats true, why the F are people not doing it ? I appreciate we can all slip up and be careless, but too many people (and not just to do with COVID either) think rules don't apply to them, or the natural reaction to a rule here isn't "how can I comply with that" its more often "how do I get round that".

I dunno, what's govt to do at the moment ? Going for harsh and strictly enforced rules isn't practical, going for light touch, trust the people, a la Sweden, wouldn't work here. They sort of went for a middle ground of harsh rules but not really policed at all, and hoping enough of the public buy into enough of the rules for long enough to hopefully let the vaccinations get a bit of a head of steam up.

I don't agree that it wouldn't necessarily work here. However, after being in level 5 lockdown for 5 of the last 6 months it creates a pent up demand for all types of services. What usually happens is there's an initial rush by people ( which is completely understandable) and the government wet the bed in panic and bring restrictions back in. Instead of seeing if measures will level of the rate of increase and maybe even bring them down again.

At this stage we are almost a perfect case study in how not to use lockdowns correctly. We are stuck in a continuous loop of using them because other measures haven't been given the opportunity to see if they actually work.

Penfailed

ypres5 wrote: »

you seem hellbent on downplaying the vaccine campaign in the uk. It's about the third post of yours I've seen knocking it. do you think the uks case and death numbers dropping in time with their vaccination programme ramping up are coincidental?

Sorry, what?! Can you quote me where I've downplayed the vaccine campaign in the UK? I've not knocked it. I've actually been supportive of it. No, it's not, to my knowledge, coincidental.

gozunda

SnuggyBear wrote: »

All hail the government of Ireland!

I hear North Korea is very nice ...

Boggles

francogarbanzo wrote: »

I have to recover in a critical care bed after a cancer screening?

No, but you would need a critical care bed if you had to have surgery for actual cancer, the vast vast vast majority of people screened don't actually have cancer.

The staff from screening were made focus their time on actual cancer patients, give the high prevalence of the disease in Health Care Workers the extra staff were required.

It was seen as the best solution to an all round bad situation.

But you know better do you?

Boggles

Stormyteacup wrote: »

They have. But not by any measured approach. They bungled their way to here with a ‘wait and see’ attitude as pressure mounted and they were forced into action.

And if compliance wasn’t dropping re distance restrictions, and pressure mounting there too - I guarantee they would keep 5km limit for six weeks after 5th April.

Hang on, the charge is NPHET are glacial and ultra conservative in their advice.

Now they are been pressured by some figment of your imagination.

I think throughout the last year, NPHET have gave their advice in good faith without external pressure, but as always it is up to the sub committee and the cabinet to implement it.

You are trying to create a narrative of goodies and baddies.

It's too simplistic.

TonyMaloney

Boggles wrote: »

No, but you would need a critical care bed if you had to have surgery for actual cancer, the vast vast vast majority of people screened don't actually have cancer.

The staff from screening were made focus their time on actual cancer patients, give the high prevalence of the disease in Health Care Workers the extra staff were required.

It was seen as the best solution to an all round bad situation.

But you know better do you?

Sweden did the same

lawred2

Russman wrote: »

I totally agree with you here. Likewise I live in the foothills of the Dublin mountains and could probably cycle 100km up there and meet less people than I would on a walk in Marlay Park which is maybe a km from me.
However government can't really legislate for every individual case can it ? If they wanted a distance restriction they had to pick a number, it could have been 2, it could have been 10, they picked 5.
People are on here saying everybody knows at this stage to keep their distance - if thats true, why the F are people not doing it ? I appreciate we can all slip up and be careless, but too many people (and not just to do with COVID either) think rules don't apply to them, or the natural reaction to a rule here isn't "how can I comply with that" its more often "how do I get round that".

I dunno, what's govt to do at the moment ? Going for harsh and strictly enforced rules isn't practical, going for light touch, trust the people, a la Sweden, wouldn't work here. They sort of went for a middle ground of harsh rules but not really policed at all, and hoping enough of the public buy into enough of the rules for long enough to hopefully let the vaccinations get a bit of a head of steam up.

A bit of self loathing is always very helpful when crafting public policy

Boggles

TonyMaloney wrote: »

Sweden did the same

Sweden prolonged the cancellation for the age cohort who had a statistically higher chance of actually having cancer.

They were also told to stay out of shops and society and away from everyone for 7/8 months.

But yeah, Sweden, something something.

ypres5

Penfailed wrote: »

Sorry, what?! Can you quote me where I've downplayed the vaccine campaign in the UK? I've not knocked it. I've actually been supportive of it. No, it's not, to my knowledge, coincidental.

Not for the first time. It happened back in September too

Yeah, the vaccination program is going well for them. The death toll prior to that...not so much.


No. He's not. He's only done one thing of note since becoming PM and that's the vaccination program. He's not making a laughing stock out of anyone though.


You've really shown the uk vaccine rollout your support alright...

Stormyteacup

Boggles wrote: »

Hang on, the charge is NPHET are glacial and ultra conservative in their advice.

Now they are been pressured by some figment of your imagination.

I think throughout the last year, NPHET have gave their advice in good faith without external pressure, but as always it is up to the sub committee and the cabinet to implement it.

You are trying to create a narrative of goodies and baddies.

It's too simplistic.

That would be simplistic indeed if that were the narrative I was trying to create.

NPHET did not give advice in good faith, they did so in full knowledge of the sway they held in public opinion.

Pressures in the form of education negatively affected, huge financial debt, massive uncertainty in employment, hospital wait lists and an increasingly angry population are not figments of my imagination.

Russman

JRant wrote: »

I don't agree that it wouldn't necessarily work here. However, after being in level 5 lockdown for 5 of the last 6 months it creates a pent up demand for all types of services. What usually happens is there's an initial rush by people ( which is completely understandable) and the government wet the bed in panic and bring restrictions back in. Instead of seeing if measures will level of the rate of increase and maybe even bring them down again.

At this stage we are almost a perfect case study in how not to use lockdowns correctly. We are stuck in a continuous loop of using them because other measures haven't been given the opportunity to see if they actually work.

That's a fair point about the pent up demand for services. I don't agree about the panic & restrictions though, I think it would be very reckless (to put it mildly) if any government took the risk and said "ahh sure its just the initial bump after the relaxation, we'll be grand in a couple of weeks". No government would take that kind of risk with its citizens. IMO this thing is seemingly far too virulent now for a "wait and see" approach if its spreading uncontrolled for any substantial length of time. Granted if we had double our ICU capacity we could wait a bit longer, but that's more an argument about the legacy of years of mismanagement.

Russman

lawred2 wrote: »

A bit of self loathing is always very helpful when crafting public policy

Just as helpful as labelling things

Dickie10

Lads im no cheerleaader for NYPHET or government but the measures are working, hospitalizations just now begging to drop again as are deaths and ICU numbers , i think if we just hold the restrictions til May 1st llike i said a few times, then numbers in hospitaal and ICU will plummet. Forget about counting cases, we could have 500 cases a day in mid summer without any deaths and maybe only 10 -15 in ICU. in that case everything should be open, no pressure on health systems

lawred2

Boggles wrote: »

No, but you would need a critical care bed if you had to have surgery for actual cancer, the vast vast vast majority of people screened don't actually have cancer.

The staff from screening were made focus their time on actual cancer patients, give the high prevalence of the disease in Health Care Workers the extra staff were required.

It was seen as the best solution to an all round bad situation.

But you know better do you?

Many many eminently treatable cases of breast cancer are discovered through breast screening. The women themselves are completely oblivious.

So it is the screening that keeps these ladies from needing critical care beds.

You (or your loved ones) wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of the "well if we had detected it sooner" conversation.

lawred2

Russman wrote: »

Just as helpful as labelling things

Well let's have your reasons as to why "it wouldn't work here" then...

gozunda

Klonker wrote: »

Some scutter posted here this morning.

Me driving my car more than 5km somehow leads to more spread of the virus.

Simple question of what percentage of hospitalised cases weren't admitted because of covid (eg admitted for something else and tested positive in hospital or picked it up in hospital and tested positive) and the answer giving is less than 1% of total cases as if that's anyway related to what was asked or in any way relevant. Might as well say than 0.001% of the worlds population picked up the virus in Irish hospitals.

There's no point even engaging with these posters.

No klonker.

Its not you 'driving your car' more than 5km. Its those few who think they know better than everyone else and deliberately choose to break restrictions but perhaps more importantly generally do not giving a damn about infection rates or anyone else for that matter.

And btw the actual question asked by that poster was

Are all that 50% admitted because of covid or caught it while on there for something else?

And that not does not equate with your own bizarre question with multiple qualifiers viz

what percentage of hospitalised cases weren't admitted because of covid (eg admitted for something else and tested positive in hospital or picked it up in hospital and tested positive)

A quick check showed that an average 1% of diagnosed cases become infected whilst in hospital. I dont have any other detailed statistics. Thats about it.

You're correct in one regard - There's probably little point engaging with those who spend practically every minute in complex goalpost maneuvers or posit that anything they don't agree with is somehow 'scutter' simply because they don't agree...

TonyMaloney

ypres5 wrote: »

You've really shown the uk vaccine rollout your support alright...

What an odd thing to say.

Vaccines are obviously bloody great, but the UK's vaccination program would not have gotten them anywhere near where they are today without a harsh, long lockdown.

Boggles

lawred2 wrote: »

Many many eminently treatable cases of breast cancer are discovered through breast screening. The women themselves are completely oblivious.

So it is the screening that keeps these ladies from needing critical care beds.

You (or your loved ones) wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of the "well if we had detected it sooner" conversation.

Screening is vitally important - all though there is negatives around breast screening in particular, but in times of crisis unfortunately not everything can be given the same level of attention as pre crisis.

Again this is not my opinion, they were made explain why screening services were cancelled, the honest answer they gave were detailed in the post above.

BlaktainPicard

Dickie10 wrote: »

Lads im no cheerleaader for NYPHET or government but the measures are working, hospitalizations just now begging to drop again as are deaths and ICU numbers , i think if we just hold the restrictions til May 1st llike i said a few times, then numbers in hospitaal and ICU will plummet. Forget about counting cases, we could have 500 cases a day in mid summer without any deaths and maybe only 10 -15 in ICU. in that case everything should be open, no pressure on health systems

Total sense here - but :D:D:D:D

There is no way this govt. will see logic or sense in anything, as soon as cases slightly tip up it will be full lockdown, like my earlier post I fully believe that even if a new Covid variant emerged that was ultra transmissable - but not lethal at all, they would go into full panic mode as it's Covid and the fear spark would be transmission.


Doesn't help that you have a fear mongering dishonest media hyping it all.