Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

timmyntc

Boggles wrote: »

Your argument is the economy can run as normal during this pandemic.

It can't.

Ask yourself this and try be nuanced, what would you think would have happened if the Government on the 1st Jan, said right, all business open, all schools back, all functions of society to return in full.

Now ask yourself it they did the same thing today. No more business closures, no more restrictions, no more financial aid for anyone.

The hair dresser in Ballbriggan pressured them into submission.

I'm going to go for fúcking carnage for 200 Bob.

Again, it's why we don't formulate a plan based on a hair dresser looking for publicity.

Now you're trying to totally misrepresent my argument.

You said hairdressers would be insolvent without govt aid, and that the demand is not there for their business.

I pointed out that when they opened previously (with all the social distancing/masks and adherence to covid safety etc) the demand was huge, and it remained huge until the govt closed them down.

The demand is there, if anything bigger than ever due to the total lack of supply. So the idea that reopening and no longer having govt financial aid would put salons out of business is absurd.

There are no calls for a wild west free market everything open type scenario - again that is you trying to misrepresent my argument.

Boggles

timmyntc wrote: »

Now you're trying to totally misrepresent my argument.

You said hairdressers would be insolvent without govt aid, and that the demand is not there for their business.

No I didn't.

I asked you some very specific questions which you have decided not to answer.

I'd appreciate if you did.

Polar101

Kiith wrote: »

So hang on, the Government are saying they can't remove the 5km restriction because it's tied to the rent/eviction freeze in some way? Hopefully i'm misunderstanding that, as it makes no sense.

Not quite. If the 5km restriction is removed, that will mean moving away from level 5 restrictions. And the eviction ban which is currently in effect (but apparently will expire Thursday week), is tied to Ireland being at level 5. So if the restrictions are eased, it will also mean the eviction ban is no longer in effect.

But I don't think anyone is saying "we can't remove the 5km restrictions, because of evictions".

Since the evictions ban will expire, they'll need to change/extend the relevant legistlation anyway.

There was a similar situation last summer when the restrictions were lifted, 360 people were evicted once the ban lifted.

OwenM

Silentcorner wrote: »

A myopic fantasy is that covid would have killed 120,000 of us, or that there would be mass graves and freezer trucks full of bodies...I feel sorry for the people who initially bought into this, they're bound to be feeling embarrassed at this stage, those with self awareness anyway!

Don't forget the Oracles have form going back years.

McConkey predicted 1000 deaths: "Imagine 4 x 737's crashing into Dublin airport" from swine flu in 2009.

27 died.

aido79

hynesie08 wrote: »

If this is true, she's the dumbest person walking the planet by advertising it.

Nice way to get a picture of your salon in the paper though.

Not as dumb as taking legal advice from Ben Gilroy. She's using his Freeman nonsense as the main basis for allowing her to reopen. That's asking for trouble.

timmyntc

Boggles wrote: »

No I didn't.

I asked you some very specific questions which you have decided not to answer.

I'd appreciate if you did.

You're trying to tell me what my own argument is - misrepresenting it in the process. In your last post you said:

Boggles wrote:

Your argument is the economy can run as normal during this pandemic.

I never said that - I have made it very clear that this whole series of posts came about because you said that hairdressers et al would be stupid to open, because they would go bust without the govts financial aid.

Which is false - because as I have said time and time again, the demand is there for these businesses. Their only impediment to making a profit is that they cannot open at all - because of the govt.

They had opened safely in the past and had massive demand then, there is no reason to think that demand would be any less if they opened today.


As for your other "very specific questions":

Boggles wrote:

Ask yourself this and try be nuanced, what would you think would have happened if the Government on the 1st Jan, said right, all business open, all schools back, all functions of society to return in full.

"We have gone from reality to fantasy in one post." - Boggles

Silentcorner

Windmill100000 wrote: »

[/U]

I personally didn't "buy into" anything. I hoped that we would not see 120,000 deaths though and am very glad it didnt happen. At the start no one knew what we were dealing with as China wasnt exactly
being clear and transparent. Not sure why you need to feel sorry for anyone. We all know what the current death count is and we all know what has helped keep that down.

I dont know anyone that feels embarrassed either. I'd say it's more relief. Unless of course they lost a family member/friend.

Wait until the check comes in the shape of the economic carnage, social damage and a health system that is going to have to handle a myriad of non covid related health problems the last year has invoked.

The man who predicted 120,000 deaths is still getting airtime, no doubt spreading the hysteria unabated or unquestioned...and there are a lot more like him, we were never going to see that amount of death...only an idiot thinks we would have.

You can't see that coming because the media aren't touching it, but it is coming, we will probably tip 30% unemployment this year.

Boggles

timmyntc wrote: »

They had opened safely in the past and had massive demand then

Yes, when incidence rates of the virus were small. This is where the nuance is in deficit.

So what I'm asking you to do is go back to last month or forward to next month if there is mass civil disobedience when incidence rates, hospitalizations and mortality isn't small, do you think they will be safe and the same demand will be there?

Windmill100000

Silentcorner wrote: »

Wait until the check comes in the shape of the economic carnage, social damage and a health system that is going to have to handle a myriad of non covid related health problems the last year has invoked.

The man who predicted 120,000 deaths is still getting airtime, no doubt spreading the hysteria unabated or unquestioned...and there are a lot more like him, we were never going to see that amount of death...only an idiot thinks we would have.

You can't see that coming because the media aren't touching it, but it is coming, we will probably tip 30% unemployment this year.

Yes, yes, we have been told umpteen times there will be a payback. And yet, for many, abiding by restrictions is still a priority for them.

Re unemployment figures, I will wait and see the figures on that fter we open up again before I agree with a poster on boards outraged that more people don't appreciate his view.

timmyntc

Boggles wrote: »

Yes, when incidence rates of the virus were small. This is where the nuance is in deficit.

So what I'm asking you to do is go back to last month or forward to next month if there is mass civil disobedience when incidence rates, hospitalizations and mortality isn't small, do you think they will be safe and the same demand will be there?

Yes - incidence rates are still high now and the salons that do open are full, and plenty more are getting black-market haircuts.

Before salons were shut again before christmas, incidence rates were high too.

Again back in sept/oct. The demand rarely waned.

Silentcorner

Deleted User wrote: »

.

How can you not be aware that there is a significant reporting lag for deaths in Ireland? Whatever your views on the Journal are the above is factually accurate. The final figures for 2020 wont be available for some time yet. The 2019 figures were only published on 29th May 2020. Its the end of may every year in fact.

And there are also over 1000k excess deaths notices on RIP.ie YTD. The CSO use this as a proxy until final death reports are complete.

Can you let this go....you are making an idiot out of yourself.

You made the claim there was huge excess deaths.

You couldn't back it up.

You posted an article in the journal that was littered in misrepresentations, I only pointed out one, there were many others.

The data we do have access to is not showing a year of excess death...we had one month of excess deaths, that was April, where there was 1,000 excess deaths over April 2019....why would it show excess deaths for one month and no other month?

We won't know until the figures are official...but given that we didn't have a flu season this year that normally takes lives in wintertime, it is a safe assumption that we will not record excess deaths...we know the Covid deaths were predominantly in the demographic that is vulnerable to a number of ailments as they are every year.

You do realize, you are enforcing Fintans point, that you ridiculed, he said,

"Those mostly in favour of restrictions, need death to support their argument"

You are leading that charge, you need death to support your argument...there is something very sad about that!

CalamariFritti

So what time is the sentence going to be handed down, erm, sorry I mean the living-with-covid plan being presented?

muddypuppy

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Genius from the government as it suits them to keep the 5km anyway

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1362142113513631746

What I don't understand is what's stopping the government from changing it from being tied to 5km to being tied to 10km or any form of freedom of movement restriction. They're the one writing the laws, and if it's OK to tie it to 5km I don't see what the difference would be...

showpony1

if you aren't "old and vulnerable", a school child or a parent trying to get rid of a school child from the house this "living with covid" plan won't be for you.

CruelSummer

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9290029/Britains-coronavirus-lockdown-one-toughest-WORLD-study-claims.html

Is Ireland the strictest lockdown in the Western World?! The people calling the shots here re our response have completely lost it.

KrustyUCC

muddypuppy wrote: »

What I don't understand is what's stopping the government from changing it from being tied to 5km to being tied to 10km or any form of freedom of movement restriction. They're the one writing the laws, and if it's OK to tie it to 5km I don't see what the difference would be...

There's nothing stopping them changing the 5km limit only they want to keep it in place

This red herring with evictions is only an excuse to keep the 5km limit in place

Pitch n Putt

CalamariFritti wrote: »

So what time is the sentence going to be handed down, erm, sorry I mean the living-with-covid plan being presented?

Probably around 4pm while most people are still at work except the people they’ve prevented from working.

It the stuttering and blank stares at the press conference afterwards I’m looking forward to.

As usual there will be no answers to any tricky questions and mehole will be mmmming & aaaaaing to beat the band.

We’re being advised & Nphet recommend will be the fall back to cover all unanswerable questions.

Schools are safe another gem along with it’s the movement of people that’s the concern.

Same old sh1t with no forward thinking.

OwenM

CruelSummer wrote: »

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9290029/Britains-coronavirus-lockdown-one-toughest-WORLD-study-claims.html

Is Ireland the strictest lockdown in the Western World?! The people calling the shots here re our response have completely lost it.

Yes we do: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-stringency-index?tab=chart&stackMode=absolute&time=2020-01-22..latest&country=AUT~BEL~FRA~DEU~IND~IRL~ITA~NLD~USA~GBR&region=World

Silentcorner

KrustyUCC wrote: »

There's nothing stopping them changing the 5km limit only they want to keep it in place

This red herring with evictions is only an excuse to keep the 5km limit in place

Of course it is....only a simpleton can't see through this.

It's about helping the Health System cope with the backlogs the lock downs have created....large parts of the system had a very handy year over the last 12 months...we all have to stay at home until they get back up to speed!

The restriction are not about Covid any more, or the fear Covid patients will have on the health system.

Silentcorner

Silentcorner wrote: »

Can you let this go....you are making an idiot out of yourself.

You made the claim there was huge excess deaths.

You couldn't back it up.

You posted an article in the journal that was littered in misrepresentations, I only pointed out one, there were many others.

The data we do have access to is not showing a year of excess death...we had one month of excess deaths, that was April, where there was 1,000 excess deaths over April 2019....why would it show excess deaths for one month and no other month?

We won't know until the figures are official...but given that we didn't have a flu season this year that normally takes lives in wintertime, it is a safe assumption that we will not record excess deaths...we know the Covid deaths were predominantly in the demographic that is vulnerable to a number of ailments as they are every year.

You do realize, you are enforcing Fintans point, that you ridiculed, he said,

"Those mostly in favour of restrictions, need death to support their argument"

You are leading that charge, you need death to support your argument...there is something very sad about that!

The bolded is a bizarre fantasy you have developed.

You also don't realise my argument is against the bizarre nonsense some use to support their view on removal of restriction, and not the fact there are genuine arguments to be made.

You have this weird assumption that anyone who doesn't express the view that there is no merit in any restrictions are somehow suggesting that they want and like continued restrictions indefinitely and dont want any movement towards opening up. No one expresses this view, yet you keep arguing against people as if they do. I dont know does it give some inner joy to believe you have one an argument by inventing a fantasy version of the opposing view. The use of what McConkey said in March is in this vein. What was a worst case from an alarmist made when we knew far less than we now know about the virus is presented as the view of anyone who questions the thread narrative. Disingenuous in the extreme.

Also, we did not have the same level of deaths as other countries. Was this because our physiology is more resistant to the virus or a different virus came here? Or maybe because we have a magnificent health service?
Or was it because not as many people caught the virus for some strange reason

paw patrol

Deleted User wrote: »

The bolded is a bizarre fantasy you have developed.

You also don't realise my argument is against the bizarre nonsense some use to support their view on removal of restriction, and not the fact there are genuine arguments to be made.

Its mad how you believe one needs an argument(s) (whose validity is determined by you :pac:) to justify why they want to live their lives as they see fit accepting the risk of (anything not just covid19) what is beyond their front door.

It seems bizarre that we'd decry this ****e in china but accept it here.

paw patrol

paw patrol wrote: »

Its mad how you believe one needs an argument(s) (whose validity is determined by you :pac:) to justify why they want to live their lives as they see fit accepting the risk of (anything not just covid19) what is beyond their front door.

It seems bizarre that we'd decry this ****e in china but accept it here.

Its when people descend to bizarre fantasies such as the journal is a paid propaganda organ of the government among, PCR conspiracies, government loves lockdowns, Tony is using it to drive an anti alcohol agenda etc etc etc etc etc.

Lundstram

On April 5th, Irish gyms will have been shut for 20 of the last 23 weeks. Longest in the EU.

Longest school closures in EU.

Highest nursing homes deaths per capita, 3rd highest over 65 deaths in Europe per capita. No visitors to nursing homes since March. General public still get blamed, though.

The only country to have construction banned. Not forgetting we are in the middle of a housing crisis.

The longest closure of wet pubs in the EU.

The damage Government and NPHET have done to young and old in this country is incalculable.

Someone yesterday called me out for being a FG man. Yes, I am and I will be the first to admit they have been an absolute disgrace. FF, the gutless Greens all the same. SF, an opposition party, can’t even do that right anymore, cowards.

The laughing stock of the EU.

OwenM

Deleted User wrote: »

Its when people descend to bizarre fantasies such as the journal is a paid propaganda organ of the government among, PCR conspiracies, government loves lockdowns, Tony is using it to drive an anti alcohol agenda etc etc etc etc etc.

I'd nearly believe that one.

Boggles

timmyntc wrote: »

Yes - incidence rates are still high now and the salons that do open are full

Again alternative universe?

Any way the main point is this

timmyntc wrote: »

It puts pressure on govt

and this

timmyntc wrote: »

So if all Salons in the country decided to open in defiance of govt restrictions, that wont be putting pressure on the government?

Is not going to happen and it certainly won't happen because some simpleton has gorged themselves retarded on Ben Gilroy's youtube channel.

CruelSummer

https://twitter.com/griptmedia/status/1364193937955692545?s=21

This is extremely sinister and dangerous in the extreme.
Yesterday two of these professors were on The Last Word with no alternative viewpoint being offered. Another was in rte radio in the morning trying to keep schools closed. The attempt at normalising the extremists is a disgrace.
The extremists agenda is absolutely shocking - they should be locked up with all the damage they’re causing Irish society.

Silentcorner

Deleted User wrote: »

The bolded is a bizarre fantasy you have developed.

You also don't realise my argument is against the bizarre nonsense some use to support their view on removal of restriction, and not the fact there are genuine arguments to be made.

You don't entertain genuine arguments.

You previously dismissed the need to have alternate opinions on media about lock downs...and yet you couldn't name an expert who has been most accurate in their predictions.

You previously dismissed the ability to shield the over 70s in a more humane fashion.

You have convinced yourself we have had excess deaths in 2019 without a shred of evidence...you have stopped mentioning Euromomo where you originally got your data...I suspect I know why.

You have consistently supported the strictest, most damaging lock down in Europe to the point where you can't tolerate criticism of it.

You are a lock down extremist for some reason...a tool that should never have been used for this long on account of the damage they clearly cause...

We all recognize the need for restrictions, it is the strictest lockdown in Europe that most of us have the issue with!

DellyBelly

I really hope they raise it to 10km. I am 8km from a beach and really want to get there for a walk. I am missing it big time. This 5km is so cruel...

Hellrazer

Lundstram wrote: »

Someone yesterday called me out for being a FG man. Yes, I am and I will be the first to admit they have been an absolute disgrace. FF, the gutless Greens all the same. SF, an opposition party, can’t even do that right anymore, cowards.

Ive been a FG supporter since I was old enough to vote - Im now 46 so youre not alone.

Personally they will never get another vote from me after this fiasco.

But we dont have an opposition - we have a group of like minded individuals all probably centre left leaning.

Its a disgrace that there is no one to call them out on their **** ups in the Dail.

Opposition want more restrictions and I honestly really thought after SFs gains in the last GE they might have been an alternative but theyve shown they are worse than what we have.

We need a genuine opposition.

facehugger99

The BBC have reported surges in UK holiday booking followings yesterday's announcements on reopening the economy and the vaccine rollout.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56161129

Meanwhile in Ireland our useless shower of over-paid cowards mutter about maybe allowing outdoor dining in mid-summer


We are lucky to have the UK as our nearest neighbour. The will shame our Government into opening up sooner. But meanwhile we'll continue to add 10's of billions of unnecessary debt to our books so our lily-livered saps can duck out of taking any decisions they could be held accountable for .

This is the most expensive arse-covering exercise ever attempted.,