Northern Ireland and the IRA

steddyeddy

Blanch I'd advise you to look up the phenomenon of projection. You're literally excusing terrorists of their actions while accusing others of doing the same.

blanch152

steddyeddy wrote: »

Blanch you're the one who's stating that the paramilitary groups can't be blamed for their actions because there was a lack of political pressure.

Read your idea back to yourself from the opposing side of the conflict.

The UVF were to blame for the IRA bombing campaign because the actions of the UVF prevented political pressure being put on the IRA. That's what you said......

steddyeddy wrote: »

Blanch I'd advise you to look up the phenomenon of projection. You're literally excusing terrorists of their actions while accusing others of doing the same.

What sort of nonsense is that?

You clearly have misunderstood my post.

maccored

blanch152 wrote: »

What sort of nonsense is that?

You clearly have misunderstood my post.

anyone with a smidgen of knowledge of the history of the time is bound to misunderstand your post. you blame the IRA for unionist actions.

indioblack

I remember talking to an Irish relative in the mid 1970's and my opinion then was that while the re-emergence of the IRA, [PIRA], could be understood, a continuation of their campaign might prove counter productive. People might be more likely to focus on the violence than the initial cause.

maccored

indioblack wrote: »

I remember talking to an Irish relative in the mid 1970's and my opinion then was that while the re-emergence of the IRA, [PIRA], could be understood, a continuation of their campaign might prove counter productive. People might be more likely to focus on the violence than the initial cause.

the cause remained through right up until the ceasefires of the 90s. there was still harassment going on by the RUC/UDR etc and they still didnt represent everyone in the community

Hamsterchops

indioblack wrote: »

I remember talking to an Irish relative in the mid 1970's and my opinion then was that while the re-emergence of the IRA, [PIRA], could be understood, a continuation of their campaign might prove counter productive. People might be more likely to focus on the violence than the initial cause.

Well that's the thing, it quickly got to the stage where they were just planting bombs here there & everywhere. Another week another bomb, more loss of life, maybe an off duty policeman or a judge, an army building contractor, or even one of their own who "got out of line" so Bang bang to him!

The Provos were if course scum of the highest order, as were the INLA & their Loyalist equivalents. It has been said many times that the biggest obstacle to uniting the island was the poison inflicted by the men if violence (primarily by the PIRA). Bombing & shooting your neighbours was never going to unite anyone, was it :cool:

It's poppy day, let's plant a bomb!
******s

Sunny Disposition

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Well that's the thing, it quickly got to the stage where they were just planting bombs here there & everywhere. Another week another bomb, more loss of life, maybe an off duty policeman or a judge, an army building contractor, or even one of their own who "got out of line" so Bang bang to him!

The Provos were if course scum of the highest order, as were the INLA & their Loyalist equivalents. It has been said many times that the biggest obstacle to uniting the island was the poison inflicted by the men if violence (primarily by the PIRA). Bombing & shooting your neighbours was never going to unite anyone, was it :cool:

It's poppy day, let's plant a bomb!
******s

This is something that gets forgotten. There were other political options available in the 70s, and most Catholics wanted change but wanted peace more. The IRA meant that improvements for Catholics were delayed and partition hasn't ended either.

MitchBuch

As a "millenial" Northern Ireland person I have always noticed the southerners and the GB people try to belittle your viewpoints because you didn't grow up during the troubles. This is partly why I don't engage in discussions about it anymore. The way I see it someone like myself has every right to his views whether they be extreme or moderate because I had to grow up in the post troubles society among the other sort, the outsiders may have been alive in the 70s and 80s but they don't have to live in Northern Ireland society.

It especially annoys me when the Gen X and Boomers of Northern Ireland say it, they have some nerve, they carried on a war for 30 years and have the brass neck to complain when the next generation comment on it when it is the next generation who have to pick up their mess. Don't even get me started when the American boomers try to slide their opinion in.

end of the road

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

This is something that gets forgotten. There were other political options available in the 70s, and most Catholics wanted change but wanted peace more. The IRA meant that improvements for Catholics were delayed and partition hasn't ended either.

sorry but you have already been shown that there weren't other political options available in the 1970s.
those who did try peaceful means were shot off the streets at best and murdered at worst as you already know.
there were not going to be improvements for catholics without violence, there was no wish or incentive to implement them.
in fact without violence, improvements would have come a lot later or not at all.
why you keep making a claim that both history and reality have shown isn't true is beyond me.

Sunny Disposition

end of the road wrote: »

sorry but you have already been shown that there weren't other political options available in the 1970s.
those who did try peaceful means were shot off the streets at best and murdered at worst as you already know.
there were not going to be improvements for catholics without violence, there was no wish or incentive to implement them.
in fact without violence, improvements would have come a lot later or not at all.
why you keep making a claim that both history and reality have shown isn't true is beyond me.

Yes, there were, there always are, and the vast majority of Catholics wanted to take them. I lived in one of the biggest IRA strongholds during the worst of the Troubles, and even there fewer people supported them than did not. Thinking the IRA helped us is what’s not borne out by history.

Hamsterchops

end of the road wrote: »

sorry but you have already been shown that there weren't other political options available in the 1970s.
those who did try peaceful means were shot off the streets at best and murdered at worst as you already know.
there were not going to be improvements for catholics without violence, there was no wish or incentive to implement them.
in fact without violence, improvements would have come a lot later or not at all.
why you keep making a claim that both history and reality have shown isn't true is beyond me.

I think it disgrace that any civilised person would even hint at Terrorism being "the only way".

The Nationalist SDLP were a very good option for Nationalists, and yes they were batoned off the streets during civil rights unrest, but they were and still are a peaceful and honourable party. No one ever had to plant bombs and blow people's arms & legs off, no reason at all.

The SDLP had no grizzly murders in their name.

Sunny Disposition

Hamsterchops wrote: »

I think it disgrace that any civilised person would even hint at Terrorism being "the only way".

The Nationalist SDLP were a very good option for Nationalists, and yes they were batoned off the streets during civil rights unrest, but they were and still are a peaceful and honourable party.

No grizzly murders in their name.

Ridiculous, the IRA were a total disaster for Ireland and we still haven’t recovered from their campaign. They have put back reunification, but that pales into insignificance beside some of the barbarity.

FrancieBrady

Unionism and the British had choices too, from the get go. They chose to beat people into the ground so much they rose up against them. Same story the world over - bloodbaths and who was the common denominator?

Guess who.

Hamsterchops

Ah Francie, there you go .....

Your mentality would never Unite.

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Ah Francie, there you go .....

Your mentality would never Unite.

You think yours would HC?

The blame for what happened is a shared one...just like the only stable future will be a shared one.

Hamsterchops

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You think yours would HC?

What do you mean by that ^

My mentality means that I have never supported the IRA, INLA, UFF, UDF, or any other F, my line all along has been to denounce terrorism and the planting of bombs, because Francie, blowing people to bits only perpetuates hatred & division, it also delays any Uniting of the Green & Orange.

Thankfully it's all over now, but please don't expect the rest of us to look back at the IRA campaign as some kind of glorious necessity. It's wasn't necessary at all, and many good people from both sides could lived their lives without being murdered by the PIRA (and the Loyalist gangs).

Mad_maxx

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Unionism and the British had choices too, from the get go. They chose to beat people into the ground so much they rose up against them. Same story the world over - bloodbaths and who was the common denominator?

Guess who.

while i know that the province of Ulster always had the most rebellious people in Ireland , for the most part we are a fairly moderate people and had catholics been given a fair shout , revolutionaries would have been very thin on the ground as the vast majority of people just want to do the usual and get a job , get a house and raise their families in a normal environment.

the unionists made an awful balls of things up there.

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

What do you mean by that ^

My mentality means that I have never supported the IRA, INLA, UFF, UDF, or any other F, my line all along has been to denounce terrorism and the planting of bombs, because Francie, blowing people to bits only perpetuates hatred & division, it also delays any Uniting of the Green & Orange.

Thankfully it's all over now, but please don't expect the rest of us to look back at the IRA campaign as some kind of glorious necessity. It's wasn't necessary at all, and many good people from both sides could lived their lives without being murdered by the PIRA (and the Loyalist gangs).

Violence doesn't occur in a vacuum, it has causes. The British destroyed indigenous societies the world over for centuries and would still do it if they had any power left.
They had a 'choice' too. There was not a single reason why they could not have delivered what was in the GFA in 1969.
They choose to shore up a bigoted sectarian suprematist Unionist state.

The primary responsibility lies with them and the reason your 'mentality would never unite' is that the British don't even make your list above.

maccored

Hamsterchops wrote: »

What do you mean by that ^

My mentality means that I have never supported the IRA, INLA, UFF, UDF, or any other F, my line all along has been to denounce terrorism and the planting of bombs, because Francie, blowing people to bits only perpetuates hatred & division, it also delays any Uniting of the Green & Orange.

Thankfully it's all over now, but please don't expect the rest of us to look back at the IRA campaign as some kind of glorious necessity. It's wasn't necessary at all, and many good people from both sides could lived their lives without being murdered by the PIRA (and the Loyalist gangs).

i have to ask, respectfully - did you grow up there throughout it all? if you didnt then theres no surprise you can look at it from an outside viewpoint.

if you grew up there and - like many - had to deal with the harassment from unionists during the marching season (ie, may-sept), with the ruc, etc etc then you might not be able to afford such a viewpoint. Im just speaking from my experience. Im sure unionists would say exactly the same thing about republicans etc etc.

I'm sure there were those who really enjoyed killing etc - but Im also sure a sizeable majority of those who were involved wold have preferred to have had a much more peaceful life. as mentioned - it didnt happen in a vacuum. suppress people and there will be violence. humans are like that the world over.

end of the road

Hamsterchops wrote: »

I think it disgrace that any civilised person would even hint at Terrorism being "the only way".

The Nationalist SDLP were a very good option for Nationalists, and yes they were batoned off the streets during civil rights unrest, but they were and still are a peaceful and honourable party. No one ever had to plant bombs and blow people's arms & legs off, no reason at all.

The SDLP had no grizzly murders in their name.

you can think that away, but it's still reality that it was the only way.
you can blame britain for it, they had every chance to avoid that being the only way and it refused to take those opportunities, instead doubling down.
the SDLP could have done nothing, the reality is that if there was no campaign the catholic/nationalists would have been ultimately ethnically cleansed from northern ireland.

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Ridiculous, the IRA were a total disaster for Ireland and we still haven’t recovered from their campaign. They have put back reunification, but that pales into insignificance beside some of the barbarity.

the IRA campaign didn't put reunification back.
there were only a couple of ways reunification was happening.
1. britain pulls out.
2. a majority in NI vote for it.
3. a catastrofic event like brexit and the possible breakup of the UK.

Hamsterchops

All to often in the 1970s and 80s I, like many millions of people would turn on the TV or Radio and witness the latest atrocity committed by the Provos (or some other terrorist gang).

"The bomb went off on a crowded street, at least twenty people have died and many others have been left with life changing injuries".

"The off duty policemen answered the hall door and when he opened it he was shot dead in front of his wife and children".

"The bomb had been placed in a culvert (under the road) and as the UDR patrol passed over 'Bang' it detonated, killing six and causing life changing injuries to many others".

The fish shop too, remember that one?

The Poppy day bomb, remember that too?

All I'm saying is that it was shocking to witness this on the TV as I was growing up in South Dublin. It was always in the background, another bombing, civilians blown to bits in a pub, as well as security personnel.

Those that perpetrated it were wrong, totally out of order, and a disgrace to society. John Home and the SDLP on the other hand were head and shoulders above them in their peaceful but purposeful outlook which didn't involve the poison of terrorism. I rest my case.

The fact is that the IRA were needed at the time. As bad as NI is now, it would be even more of an apartheid state at this stage that it was then if things had been let continue. Sometimes war is the only option and it’s never pretty. Necessary.

Hamsterchops

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

The fact is that the IRA were needed at the time. As bad as NI is now, it would be even more of an apartheid state at this stage that it was then if things had been let continue. Sometimes war is the only option and it’s never pretty. Necessary.

100% wrong :rolleyes:

I see there's a cohort of IRA supporters here, nasty. The title of this thread is Northern Ireland and the IRA, and all I can say is that the Troubles would not have ground on (for thirty years) had it not been for the Provos and their particular brand of Terrorism.

end of the road

Hamsterchops wrote: »

100% wrong

I see there's a cohort of IRA supporters here, nasty. The title of this thread is Northern Ireland and the IRA, and all I can say is that the Troubles would not have ground on (for thirty years) had it not been for the Provos and their particular brand of Terrorism.

and if it wasn't for britain creating and allowing a sectarian little apartheid bigoted statelet on it's door step, if it wasn't for britain doubling down and ordering the beating and killing of peaceful protesters and all the rest, then the PIRA wouldn't have had the ability to continue their campaign for 30 years until the british government finally grew up and got balls, told the unionists either power share or else, and actually dealt with the issues.

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

100% wrong :rolleyes:

I see there's a cohort of IRA supporters here, nasty. The title of this thread is Northern Ireland and the IRA, and all I can say is that the Troubles would not have ground on (for thirty years) had it not been for the Provos and their particular brand of Terrorism.

I haven't seen many IRA supporters here HC.

When you allow the conditions for conflict/war to exist and ignore again and again what is needed to bring it to an end you are mainly culpable for that conflict/war.
The IRA were no more capable of stopping than the various Loyalist/British factions were once it went up in flames.
The prospect of peace did not rear it's head until the British got fed up with Unionist belligerence and signed the Anglo Irish Agreement. That ended the Unionist veto...since then they have had to depend on misusing the Petition of Concern which was instrumental in grinding the institutions to a halt. (Rights and The Irish Language Act)
Don't believe me? Read what the man you championed a few posts back, John Hume, had to say about the AIA..
And sit back and watch how Unionism implodes in anger because it no longer has a veto.
The IRA are finished from a military point of view, Unionism isn't yet.

Jinglejangle69

Maybe the PIRA were needed to a certain extent.

But proxy bombs, kneecappings, kidnapping horses, robbing post offices, killing members of An Garda síochána, fuel smuggling, leaving bombs in shopping centres and killing 5 year old kids, stabbing and killing of Robert McCartney and covering it up through intimidating.

Nah I can't get on board with that.

FrancieBrady

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Maybe the PIRA were needed to a certain extent.

But proxy bombs, kneecappings, kidnapping horses, robbing post offices, killing members of An Garda síochána, fuel smuggling, leaving bombs in shopping centres and killing 5 year old kids, stabbing and killing of Robert McCartney and covering it up through intimidating.

Nah I can't get on board with that.

You don't need to 'get on board' JJ. You just need to understand why it happened.

Nobody in their right mind would 'get on board' with the obscenities of war, napalm, looting by invading forces, carpet bombing, arbitrary killing of innocents to spread terror and sap morale (terrorism, if you are on the receiving end) nuclear bombs etc...but it happens, when it is allowed to happen.
Both World Wars could have been avoided by 'choice' but this is the real world. Sometimes governments make the wrong choices and chaos is the result.

dd973

The PIRA could and should have protected the Nationalist community more, I'd rather have seen scum like the Belfast UDA wiped out than most of the attacks on part time UDR men whom were mostly from rural communities in quieter less disputatious areas.

Granadino

Southern govt could have done more to protect or help nationalists in the north (I think)
Sympathy or mass protests seemed to wane in the south after bloody sunday or am I wrong?

Cilldara_2000

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Ridiculous, the IRA were a total disaster for Ireland and we still haven’t recovered from their campaign. They have put back reunification, but that pales into insignificance beside some of the barbarity.

How exactly did the PIRA campaign set back reunification?

Here we are 23 years after the GFA and unionists are still as intransigent as they ever were, such as when they armed the UVF in 1912 to oppose home rule, and again in 1966 to oppose common decency for nationalists, or when they went on strike to bring down Sunningdale, and again to try to bring down the AIA (but they found Maggie was not for turning), or when slightly less then half of them opposed the GFA and a majority have since voted for the DUP. Even members of the more reasonable UUP will say that they have no interest in and won’t talk about a united Ireland.

Realistically the GFA parked a united Ireland for what would have been many generations and it’s only in vogue now because of Brexit and SDLP voters have remembered that British governments cannot be trusted.