No completion cert on gas boiler

Nickers

Hi, I got work done on a house a year ago. I left everything for the builder to handle. I now realise I didn’t get a gas completion cert from whoever installed the gas. I don’t know who installed it as I’ve no name to go on. I stupidly didn’t realise I’d need one and nobody supplied me with one. I got the old boiler replaced to a combi boiler and new rads. I contacted the builder recently and he asked why I needed a cert and I said it was required by law. He said he’d get in touch with the gas installer but he couldn’t remember who it was as it was a year ago. I’ve a feeling whoever the installer was wasn’t registered and I won’t hear from anyone again. I don’t even think the boiler is under warranty now. Builder originally said if there’s any issues with the boiler I go back to them. I don’t think I can put the gas on now and I will need to get it serviced soon. But I believe nobody will service it if no completion certificate has been issued in the first instance. Just wondering what my options are?

Sleeper12

The builder paid the RGI plumber. Obviously he will have a record of this in his accounts. I'm pretty sure he had to stop a portion of his payment for revenue.

I would ring the builder and tell him you are getting in touch with RGI and the commission for energy regulation. I would tell him that as he is the only contact person I have so it's his name and business address that you will be giving to them. Your contact is with him and not his plumber.

Don't let the builder fob you off. Boiler manifacturer may not honour the warranty without RGI cert. I have seen manifacturer not willing to send out an engineer to repair a 6 months old gas hobs. Their point was their engineer has no way of knowing if the hob was installed safely & could be putting his life in danger

TheBoyConor

That is a bit of a cop out. I bet if you were offering to pay them for a call out repair rather than looking for warranty repair, they wouldn't mind sending out their repairman and "putting his life in danger" if they were going to be collecting a fee.
And another thing, all an Installation Certificate means is that that the installer produced an Installation Certificate. It is no guarantee that the installation isn't substandard or the test results or certificate are dawfaked.

Anyway, if you can't track down the installer, then you are in trouble. if you are looking to get it certified, no RGI is going to certify work done by another fella as they won't know what way it was done. Often the only way to get a certificate for an uncertified installation is to bite the bullet and tear it all out and replace everything with new stuff that the new installer is happy to stand over, even though what is there might physically look and work just fine. I have seen it done. It is all about being able to stand over what you certify and, in some cases, an installer knowing you are stuck and capitalising on it!

Either way, it should be the builder footing the bill for it. You had a contract with them to do the whole job, he subbed out bits of it, but he should have been providing you with the cert. If he did not, then that is his problem, it is a work item not delivered, and it is up to him to rectify it at his own expense. If that means hounding down the installer to get a cert, so be it. If it means going back in with a new RGI, tearing it all out again, and reinstalling with new equipment, then so be it. It was the builders oversight that the cert was not handed to you. It should have been part of the Safety File. If he has not done this then he may be in breach of his H&S obligatiions.

Lenar3556

Nickers wrote: »

Hi, I got work done on a house a year ago. I left everything for the builder to handle. I now realise I didn’t get a gas completion cert from whoever installed the gas. I don’t know who installed it as I’ve no name to go on. I stupidly didn’t realise I’d need one and nobody supplied me with one. I got the old boiler replaced to a combi boiler and new rads. I contacted the builder recently and he asked why I needed a cert and I said it was required by law. He said he’d get in touch with the gas installer but he couldn’t remember who it was as it was a year ago. I’ve a feeling whoever the installer was wasn’t registered and I won’t hear from anyone again. I don’t even think the boiler is under warranty now. Builder originally said if there’s any issues with the boiler I go back to them. I don’t think I can put the gas on now and I will need to get it serviced soon. But I believe nobody will service it if no completion certificate has been issued in the first instance. Just wondering what my options are?

It’s really a contractual issue between you and your building contractor. While there is a statutory requirement for a certificate to be issued by the gas installer, in this case to the builder who contracted him, that requirement doesn’t place an obligation on the builder to in turn furnish it to you. It would strengthen your case if you were to outline to him a good reason why you require it.

If you have no success, you could pursue it with RGII who may be able to help, and may investigate if there is evidence of non-compliant or illegal gas work - neither of which you have so far established.

Now if it was my house, I’d want completion certificates for everything - but without having this documented in my contract with the builder my recourse would be limited without court orders. Almost every material used in the construction of a dwelling is required to have a certificate of conformity, but the law doesn’t require the builder to produce these to the homeowner on demand.

I don’t think you will encounter much difficulty in having the applicance serviced. It might also be a good opportunity for an independent review of the installation.

Lenar3556

Sleeper12 wrote: »

The builder paid the RGI plumber. Obviously he will have a record of this in his accounts. I'm pretty sure he had to stop a portion of his payment for revenue.

A deduction would only arise if the installer was not tax compliant, but I agree it shouldn’t be too hard to identify who did it for him. He may be a little defensive with a request for a cert out of the blue.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I would ring the builder and tell him you are getting in touch with RGI and the commission for energy regulation. I would tell him that as he is the only contact person I have so it's his name and business address that you will be giving to them. Your contact is with him and not his plumber.

That would up the decibel level a bit, and may well deliver the goods.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Don't let the builder fob you off. Boiler manifacturer may not honour the warranty without RGI cert. I have seen manifacturer not willing to send out an engineer to repair a 6 months old gas hobs. Their point was their engineer has no way of knowing if the hob was installed safely & could be putting his life in danger

A consumer’s statutory protections when it comes to a defective product are not impacted by the absence of an RGI cert - unless it could be reasonably established that improper installation was the cause of the fault.

The excuse provided doesn’t sound plausible, but the manufacturer may have alternative avenues to meet their obligations such as a replacement hob (without fitting)

Sleeper12

Lenar3556 wrote: »

A consumer’s statutory protections when it comes to a defective product are not impacted by the absence of an RGI cert - unless it could be reasonably established that improper installation was the cause of the fault.

The excuse provided doesn’t sound plausible, but the manufacturer may have alternative avenues to meet their obligations such as a replacement hob (without fitting)

A consumer’s statutory protections obviously isn't effected BUT there is no manufacture warranty without a cert as a cert is required by law & as part of the warranty.

So without a valid warranty you are relying on the person who supplied the hobs to work on an illegal installation. Sale of goods act can't force someone to break the law.



unless it could be reasonably established that improper installation was the cause of the fault. Equally the homeowner may have to show that the failure is due to a manufacture fault

Irrespective of warranty issues the gas certification process is about safety, a Cert proves a installation has been tested for gas safety and is fitted in a safe manor, not having a installation Cert means right now you don’t know if your home is safe.

Contact RGII and talk to them they should deal with this for you.

TheBoyConor

Builder, would be obliged to included things like rgi certs in the Safety File file and giving to the homeowners. more specifically it is the psdp that is responsible for preparing the safety file and handing it over to decline. In the case of a house build that is usually the engineer or the architect. Maybe you could follow up with them and try to nail them for it?

Lenar3556

Sleeper12 wrote: »

A consumer’s statutory protections obviously isn't effected BUT there is no manufacture warranty without a cert as a cert is required by law & as part of the warranty.

So without a valid warranty you are relying on the person who supplied the hobs to work on an illegal installation. Sale of goods act can't force someone to break the law.



unless it could be reasonably established that improper installation was the cause of the fault. Equally the homeowner may have to show that the failure is due to a manufacture fault

The consumers warranty for faulty goods is not affected by the presence, or otherwise of a cert. The legislation underpinning it predates RGII by several decades. If a supplier adopts that position in court they will loose.

There is no suggestion of an illegal installation, just that the hob is clearly faulty and the homeowner is not in possession of a cert. His recourse is to whoever sold him the hob - often a kitchen fitter, builder, or white goods retailer. This is the entity who is required to remedy any fault by either repairing or replacing the product. A certificate has no statutory role in this relationship or process.

Of course, if the remedy was that a manufacturers representative were to call to the premises to repair and he found the installation was dangerous, the relevant provisions of the Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2006 act apply.

Lenar3556

gary71 wrote: »

Irrespective of warranty issues the gas certification process is about safety, a Cert proves a installation has been tested for gas safety and is fitted in a safe manor, not having a installation Cert means right now you don’t know if your home is safe.

Contact RGII and talk to them they should deal with this for you.

Sure, but you could say that about many aspects of building construction. A incorrectly installed solid fuel applicance for example may be an equal or greater greater safety threat than a similarly installed gas boiler. An electric water heater like wise.

Lenar3556

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Builder, would be obliged to included things like rgi certs in the Safety File file and giving to the homeowners. more specifically it is the psdp that is responsible for preparing the safety file and handing it over to decline. In the case of a house build that is usually the engineer or the architect. Maybe you could follow up with them and try to nail them for it?

This was a renovation project of a single domestic house, it’s possible but unlikely that the BCAR provisions you refer apply. In which case, unless there is evidence of defects, it comes down to nature of the contract between the home owner and builder as to what safety file etc. should be handed over.

All the more reason to have your engagement with a builder firmly set our in writing from the start.

TheBoyConor

Lenar3556 wrote: »

This was a renovation project of a single domestic house, it’s possible but unlikely that the BCAR provisions you refer apply. In which case, unless there is evidence of defects, it comes down to nature of the contract between the home owner and builder as to what safety file etc. should be handed over.

All the more reason to have your engagement with a builder firmly set our in writing from the start.

I am not referring to BCAR. Safety file and PSDP is nothing to do with BCAR. I refer to the H&S construction regulations which apply to all construction and PSDP and a safety file is required for all but the most trivial types of construction works.
And the builder doesn't prepare the safety file. The PSDP is responsible for that. But the builder should provide whatever information and documents might be necessary. And RGI cert would definitely be a part of it.

Sleeper12

Lenar3556 wrote:

The consumers warranty for faulty goods is not affected by the presence, or otherwise of a cert. The legislation underpinning it predates RGII by several decades. If a supplier adopts that position in court they will loose.

I'm not going to keep going back & forward with you on this as you won't take my word for it. I suggest that you ask in the legal or consumer forum.

A warranty may or may not be offered on top of your statutory rights. If the consumer uses the warranty then the manufacturer will send out an engineer assuming the appliance is installed legally / safely and according to the installation instructions. An RGI cert is a legal requirement. Without the RGI cert you have no warranty.

Without a warranty you are left with the sale of goods act. This states that the consumer returns the goods & the retailer has the right to have the goods tested. Retailer also is allowed reasonable time to make repairs. This can be several weeks. Retailer is only responsible for the goods sold. They aren't responsible for the installation. Without the warranty the homeowners have to pay to have the hob taken out & the repaired one installed.

As Gary said OP should contact RGI. Builder is telling lies. He has to have an invoice & insurance details of the plumber that he contracted in. Its likely he wasn't RGI & I wouldn't really trust any cert that he might produce at this stage. System will need to be tested now anyway before a ligament cert is issued.

Lenar3556

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Jasus you'd argue with your own shadow.

There is NO legislation underpinning a warranty. A warranty is something that may or may not be offered & if offered it is on top of your statutory rights.

Under the sale of goods act there is nothing to state that the manufacturer or retailer must send out an engineer. If not availing of the warranty then goods must be returned. Retailer is allowed time to inspect & test the goods to determine the fault. They can repair or replace if it is a manifacturer fault. They do not install the new /repaired hobs.

Under the sale of goods act homeowner can be without the hobs for several weeks and they have to pay to have it installed again. Manifacturer isn't responsible for the installation.

As Gary said its a safety issue. OP should get on to RGI. Going through the builder is a waste of time but more importantly he may end up with a dodgy cert and OP might be none the wiser. He's already trying to give the run around saying he can't remember who the plumber was. Apart from stopping tax on the plumber, he should have plumbers insurance details and an invoice from the plumber for the work carried out. I don't think I'd trust a cert from him now as he is obviously telling lies

)P
Well I should say that the RGII scheme has been one of the better examples of regulating an industry in Ireland and this is a credit to all involved, particularly the industry.
But it’s not perfect, there is still defective gas work being carried out, and some of it is certified!

Indeed the vender has various remedies open to them in resolving a claim for defective goods, and as you rightly point out some of these may be significantly less convenient for the consumer stuck with the faulty product, and a consumer needs to be mindful of this. It should be noted though that manufacturers typically have a very limited role or desire in policing regulations in a given country, and their wish will be to resolve a defect at as low a cost possible.

It’s one reason why purchasing a product from a party who is also to install it can be a good idea.

Lenar3556

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I am not referring to BCAR. Safety file and PSDP is nothing to do with BCAR. I refer to the H&S construction regulations which apply to all construction and PSDP and a safety file is required for all but the most trivial types of construction works.
And the builder doesn't prepare the safety file. The PSDP is responsible for that. But the builder should provide whatever information and documents might be necessary. And RGI cert would definitely be a part of it.

Absolutely. But where is he?
Probably never appointed by the client, and so of very little benefit in securing the RGI cert.

A builder can take on the role of PSDP.

Lenar3556

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I'm not going to keep going back & forward with you on this as you won't take my word for it. I suggest that you ask in the legal or consumer forum.

With the greatest of respect, it’s not a question of taking your word for it, I’m quite familiar with the position. I’m challenging what you have written because it is incorrect and could serve to mislead others. You have suggested that the homeowner has an automatic entitlement to certificates when (regrettably) this may not necessarily be the case in the given circumstances.

You have then gone on to suggest that the building contractor is a liar, that he is likely to have facilitated illegal gas installation works and that any cert he would now produce is likely to be fraudulent or untrustworthy.....There is no basis whatsoever to any of these accusations, and they serve no helpful purpose to the OP.

Sleeper12

Lenar3556 wrote: »

With the greatest of respect, it’s not a question of taking your word for it, I’m quite familiar with the position. I’m challenging what you have written because it is incorrect and could serve to mislead others. You have suggested that the homeowner has an automatic entitlement to certificates when (regrettably) this may not necessarily be the case in the given circumstances.

You have then gone on to suggest that the building contractor is a liar, that he is likely to have facilitated illegal gas installation works and that any cert he would now produce is likely to be fraudulent or untrustworthy.....There is no basis whatsoever to any of these accusations, and they serve no helpful purpose to the OP.

Lets be clear here. The builder has lied by claiming that he doesn't know who the plumber is. He will remember quickly enough when RGI get involved. The builder is obviously making stupid stories to try cover his tracks. RGI & CER will likely bring him to court. He faces a possible prison sentence & thousands in fines if convicted.



Maybe one of the RGI guys will explain about the requirement to fully test the work give the homeowner a RGI cert covering the work. You are trying to suggest that op is the coordinator & therefore isn't entitled to the RGI cert that they are legally entitled to? You've already tried to have us believe that "The consumers warranty for faulty goods is not affected by the presence, or otherwise of a cert."





Again OP ring RGI & have no more dealings with the forgetful builder & the invisible plumber

Lenar3556

Lenar3556 wrote: »

Sure, but you could say that about many aspects of building construction. A incorrectly installed solid fuel applicance for example may be an equal or greater greater safety threat than a similarly installed gas boiler. An electric water heater like wise.

I don’t get the point your making, you do understand my response is to a specific query on gas.

Also as someone who has experience of the safety issues that can arise from uncertified work I think the safety aspect is a fair point to make.

There still maybe a Cert so I don’t want to be to be over dramatic but if there isn’t then the safety aspect of the work will need to be addressed.

Lenar3556

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Lets be clear here. The builder has lied by claiming that he doesn't know who the plumber is. He will remember quickly enough when RGI get involved. The builder is obviously making stupid stories to try cover his tracks. RGI & CER will likely bring him to court. He faces a possible prison sentence & thousands in fines if convicted.

The more likely scenario is that someone calls up saying that they want this particular cert because it’s the law......the builder becomes defensive, and stalls or doesn’t engage until he understands the reason or is directed to produce. If it did transpire that it was installed by someone who wasn’t an RGI, then that person has committed an offence. The builder, unless he installed it himself wouldn’t actually have committed any offence under the legislation. He may have other contractual difficulties with the client in the event of the CER aggressively pursuing the matter.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Maybe one of the RGI guys will explain about the requirement to fully test the work give the homeowner a RGI cert covering the work. You are trying to suggest that op is the coordinator & therefore isn't entitled to the RGI cert that they are legally entitled to? You've already tried to have us believe that "The consumers warranty for faulty goods is not affected by the presence, or otherwise of a cert."

There isn’t a requirement to provide the homeowner with a certificate. There is a requirement that the RGI issue a certificate, in this case to the builder. There isn’t an automatic entitlement for this to be disseminated to the homeowner - should there be? Quite possibly, but there isn’t.
And for this reason, homeowners need to be careful as to who they engage, the manner they engage them (contractually) and also their responsibilities to appoint PSDP / PSCS as has been outlined by others.

I thought you had accepted that the an individuals statutory protections, principally under the sale of goods act are not dependent on the availability of otherwise of an RGI cert? Additional warranties by the applicance manufacturer could be on any terms, and certainly these may include prescriptive clauses regarding commissioning/maintenance etc. and to me that is fair game.

As to how common a practice that is I’m not sure. The current Currys insurance policy underwritten by Aviva doesn’t have such a clause. I had a pump replaced in a 5 year old Bosch boiler before Christmas under warranty and there was no talk about a cert, but whether that is typical or not I have no idea.

Lenar3556

gary71 wrote: »

I don’t get the point your making, you do understand my response is to a specific query on gas.

Also as someone who has experience of the safety issues that can arise from uncertified work I think the safety aspect is a fair point to make.

There still maybe a Cert so I don’t want to be to be over dramatic but if there isn’t then the safety aspect of the work will need to be addressed.

And I agree, the observation was simply that there is a distinction between cert not available and the installation being unsafe. There have been certified installations which were unsafe too, particularly in the earlier days of RGII.

I was drawing the analogy that there are other installations within a house, potentially giving rise to greater safety risks that there is a very lax certification frame work behind.

But yes certainly this needs to checked, and really by someone independent of the original installer.

Sleeper12

Going around in circles here. Weather the builder gets a cert (he doesn't seem to have) or the homeowner, the fact is that a cert must be issued. There doesn't seem to be any cert. Builder doesn't even know what plumber he had on the job.

By contacting RGI they can tell op if there is a cert. If there isn't then they will investigate and follow up.

Sleeper12

any update on this?