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Need to evict licensee

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    #62
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,320 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    EddieSteele wrote: »
    Last update: I received a call from my landlord. She complained about me... Well, I am not really worried about that. I also had the confirmation by Citizenship information that she is considered as a guest and she has to leave the property when her notice period will be over. Also, they advised me to contact the guards if she refused. I've told what happened at the garda station but the lady on the phone didn't seem really surprised.

    If that person has been in occupation for more than 6 months then they are entitled to apply to the landlord for recognition as a part 4 tenant which will put you both on equal footing. You need to be careful.


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    #63
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Marcusm wrote: »
    If that person has been in occupation for more than 6 months then they are entitled to apply to the landlord for recognition as a part 4 tenant which will put you both on equal footing. You need to be careful.

    If the licensee has been causing problems for the registered tenant can the landlord refuse that request?


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    #64
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,400 ✭✭✭1874


    Marcusm wrote: »
    If that person has been in occupation for more than 6 months then they are entitled to apply to the landlord for recognition as a part 4 tenant which will put you both on equal footing. You need to be careful.


    Then again, the landlord could decline, stating they dont allow subletting, along with the drug use highlighted by the Tenant, I really dont see why a good landlord wouldnt have the cop on to back a tenant keeping the place and send the person packing, do it on the basis of a discreet agreement between the landlord and tenant, have the landlord weigh in like they are coming down on the tenant like a tonne of bricks for subletting without permission and demand the licensee leave asap, ie have them insist the tenant kick them out while the landlord is there so they can see they are going (tenant gets to do so under the discreet support of the landlord), the licensee can see it is serious, apparently, clearly the tenant cant or wont or doesnt have the balls to do it themelves/they need support.


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    #65
    EddieSteele
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭EddieSteele


    Marcusm wrote: »
    If that person has been in occupation for more than 6 months then they are entitled to apply to the landlord for recognition as a part 4 tenant which will put you both on equal footing. You need to be careful.

    I have asked for my previous licensee and it was a complete no for my landlord. Knowing that she hasn't been a great licensee, she will know for sure that if she asks to be a part 4, my landlord will refuse so.


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    #66
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,339 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Marcusm wrote: »
    If that person has been in occupation for more than 6 months then they are entitled to apply to the landlord for recognition as a part 4 tenant which will put you both on equal footing. You need to be careful.

    That's incorrect. To apply for part 4 tenancy, you have to start from the premise of having a valid tenancy already in place. What you are suggesting is that if I have a lodger in my home, that lodger acquires part 4 rights to stay after 6 months. Licensees don't have that right as they are that and not tenants.


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    #67
    EddieSteele
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭EddieSteele


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    That's incorrect. To apply for part 4 tenancy, you have to start from the premise of having a valid tenancy already in place. What you are suggesting is that if I have a lodger in my home, that lodger acquires part 4 rights to stay after 6 months. Licensees don't have that right as they are that and not tenants.

    So basically after the 6 months, she isn't entitled to ask for a valid tenancy, is it correct?


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    #68
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,715 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    EddieSteele wrote: »
    So basically after the 6 months, she isn't entitled to ask for a valid tenancy, is it correct?
    A licencee is not a tenant so can't get tenancy - they are effectively a paying guest


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    #69
    meijin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,266 ✭✭✭meijin


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    That's incorrect. To apply for part 4 tenancy, you have to start from the premise of having a valid tenancy already in place. What you are suggesting is that if I have a lodger in my home, that lodger acquires part 4 rights to stay after 6 months. Licensees don't have that right as they are that and not tenants.

    Not true if renting from a tenant. Please read https://www.threshold.ie/advice/seeking-private-rented-accommodation/sharing-with-your-landlordrenting-from-a-tenant/
    If you are renting a room from one of the existing tenants, you may also be a licensee and the normal landlord and tenant laws do not apply. After six months however you can apply to become a tenant on the same terms and conditions as the existing tenants.


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    #70
    EddieSteele
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭EddieSteele


    meijin wrote: »
    Not true if renting from a tenant. Please read https://www.threshold.ie/advice/seeking-private-rented-accommodation/sharing-with-your-landlordrenting-from-a-tenant/

    Well, it will be insane if she asks for it... I can't imagine any landlords saying yes to someone who does drugs at home.
    In case, she wants to apply for it, how long does it take? I haven't seen the info online.


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    #71
    meijin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,266 ✭✭✭meijin


    EddieSteele wrote: »
    Well, it will be insane if she asks for it... I can't imagine any landlords saying yes to someone who does drugs at home.
    In case, she wants to apply for it, how long does it take? I haven't seen the info online.

    No idea how it works in practice.


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    #72
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,715 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    EddieSteele wrote: »
    Well, it will be insane if she asks for it... I can't imagine any landlords saying yes to someone who does drugs at home.
    In case, she wants to apply for it, how long does it take? I haven't seen the info online.
    She can't apply for tenancy (or at least can't expect to receive it) if you've already served her notice.


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    #73
    EddieSteele
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭EddieSteele


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    She can't apply for tenancy (or at least can't expect to receive it) if you've already served her notice.

    Oh ok I didn't know that. Thanks


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    #74
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,320 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    That's incorrect. To apply for part 4 tenancy, you have to start from the premise of having a valid tenancy already in place. What you are suggesting is that if I have a lodger in my home, that lodger acquires part 4 rights to stay after 6 months. Licensees don't have that right as they are that and not tenants.

    Your post is not correct; it is section 50(7)&(8) Residential Tenancies Act 2004 and the landlord cannot freely refuse, it must act reasonably. The landlord has previously acknowledged this person’s occupation and the issue to be addressed is whether the tenant’s alleged misbehaviour which has not been witnessed by the landlord would be reasonable grounds for a refusal.

    (7) A person who is lawfully in occupation of the dwelling concerned as a licensee of the tenant or the multiple tenants, as the case may be, during the subsistence of a Part 4 tenancy may request the landlord of the dwelling to allow him or her to become a tenant of the dwelling.

    (8) The landlord may not unreasonably refuse to accede to such a request; if the request is acceded to—

    (a) an acknowledgement in writing by the landlord that the requester has become a tenant of the landlord suffices for the purpose,

    (b) the requester shall hold the dwelling—

    (i) on the same terms, or as appropriately modified, as those on which the existing tenant or multiple tenants hold the dwelling (other than terms comprising the rights, restrictions and obligations which arise by virtue of a Part 4 tenancy being in existence in respect of the dwelling),

    (ii) upon (if such be the case) subsection (3) being satisfied in respect of the requester, subject to the same rights, restrictions and obligations as those subject to which the multiple tenant whose continuous occupation gave rise to the Part 4 tenancy's existenc


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    #75
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,320 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    She can't apply for tenancy (or at least can't expect to receive it) if you've already served her notice.

    She can provided she is still lawfully in occupation of the premises. That would include any period of the purported notice from the other occupier.


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    #76
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,320 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    EddieSteele wrote: »
    I have asked for my previous licensee and it was a complete no for my landlord. Knowing that she hasn't been a great licensee, she will know for sure that if she asks to be a part 4, my landlord will refuse so.

    Did the landlord insist on the person leaving? If not then I doubt that their refusal was “reasonable” and thus not lawful.


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    #77
    EddieSteele
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭EddieSteele


    Marcusm wrote: »
    Your post is not correct; it is section 50(7)&(8) Residential Tenancies Act 2004 and the landlord cannot freely refuse, it must act reasonably. The landlord has previously acknowledged this person’s occupation and the issue to be addressed is whether the tenant’s alleged misbehaviour which has not been witnessed by the landlord would be reasonable grounds for a refusal.

    (7) A person who is lawfully in occupation of the dwelling concerned as a licensee of the tenant or the multiple tenants, as the case may be, during the subsistence of a Part 4 tenancy may request the landlord of the dwelling to allow him or her to become a tenant of the dwelling.

    (8) The landlord may not unreasonably refuse to accede to such a request; if the request is acceded to—

    (a) an acknowledgement in writing by the landlord that the requester has become a tenant of the landlord suffices for the purpose,

    (b) the requester shall hold the dwelling—

    (i) on the same terms, or as appropriately modified, as those on which the existing tenant or multiple tenants hold the dwelling (other than terms comprising the rights, restrictions and obligations which arise by virtue of a Part 4 tenancy being in existence in respect of the dwelling),

    (ii) upon (if such be the case) subsection (3) being satisfied in respect of the requester, subject to the same rights, restrictions and obligations as those subject to which the multiple tenant whose continuous occupation gave rise to the Part 4 tenancy's existenc


    Having people over for sesh during level 5, can it be a reasonable reason to refuse?


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    #78
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Marcusm wrote: »
    Your post is not correct; it is section 50(7)&(8) Residential Tenancies Act 2004 and the landlord cannot freely refuse, it must act reasonably. The landlord has previously acknowledged this person’s occupation and the issue to be addressed is whether the tenant’s alleged misbehaviour which has not been witnessed by the landlord would be reasonable grounds for a refusal.

    (7) A person who is lawfully in occupation of the dwelling concerned as a licensee of the tenant or the multiple tenants, as the case may be, during the subsistence of a Part 4 tenancy may request the landlord of the dwelling to allow him or her to become a tenant of the dwelling.

    (8) The landlord may not unreasonably refuse to accede to such a request; if the request is acceded to—

    (a) an acknowledgement in writing by the landlord that the requester has become a tenant of the landlord suffices for the purpose,

    (b) the requester shall hold the dwelling—

    (i) on the same terms, or as appropriately modified, as those on which the existing tenant or multiple tenants hold the dwelling (other than terms comprising the rights, restrictions and obligations which arise by virtue of a Part 4 tenancy being in existence in respect of the dwelling),

    (ii) upon (if such be the case) subsection (3) being satisfied in respect of the requester, subject to the same rights, restrictions and obligations as those subject to which the multiple tenant whose continuous occupation gave rise to the Part 4 tenancy's existenc

    This is important for a lot of people.

    It looks like that section of the RTA legislation is about a multiple tenancy situation. I was reading it that if one of the multiple tenants moved out and the remaining tenant/s take in a licencee to replace them, then the licencee has the right to ask the landlord to become a full tenant after six months. In that situation, the landlord would not really have any reason to refuse as the licensee is just replacing a previous tenant.

    But if the tenancy registered with the RTB has just one individual named on the agreement and they take in a licencee, are you saying that the landlord is obliged to change the RTB details and include an additional person on the tenancy agreement?

    Afaik, the registered tenant should not be taking in a licencee without the permission of the landlord in the first place so is that how this works? In other words, if the tenant has the landlords permission to take in a licencee, then after six months the landlord can't really refuse permission if they want to become a full tenant? It's a bit confusing.


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    #79
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,939 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Is there anyone else you are waiting for to tell you that you need to give your licensee notice to leave?

    The poster has told us that notice was already served.


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    #80
    EddieSteele
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭EddieSteele


    Update on the case, the agency has been in touch with her to confirm she will leave the 5th. She said she is looking for a room which isnt true. And they told her she could stay a little bit more until she find somethng....


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    #81
    Meeoow
    Registered Users Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Meeoow


    EddieSteele wrote: »
    Update on the case, the agency has been in touch with her to confirm she will leave the 5th. She said she is looking for a room which isnt true. And they told her she could stay a little bit more until she find somethng....

    What agency? I thought that you were subletting to her?
    It should be between you and her.
    Have you checked daft to see are there any rooms to rent close to you?


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    #82
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,299 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    EddieSteele wrote: »
    Update on the case, the agency has been in touch with her to confirm she will leave the 5th. She said she is looking for a room which isnt true. And they told her she could stay a little bit more until she find somethng....
    Agency? Next tenant, get them yourselves, and give them a list of rules, not a lease.


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    #83
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,400 ✭✭✭1874


    Meeoow wrote: »
    What agency? I thought that you were subletting to her?
    It should be between you and her.
    Have you checked daft to see are there any rooms to rent close to you?


    I gave up ages ago, saw there was a reply, at this stage meh, the person isnt even the OP or are they, either both of them were on a wind up, or could not take advice and just get stuck in and deal with the problem and likely they are bored at home on their own.


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    #84
    EddieSteele
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭EddieSteele


    1874 wrote: »
    I gave up ages ago, saw there was a reply, at this stage meh, the person isnt even the OP or are they, either both of them were on a wind up, or could not take advice and just get stuck in and deal with the problem and likely they are bored at home on their own.

    Keep your comment for yourself. "likely they are bored at home on their own" such a mean and ridiculous comment...

    I have contacted the agency because I need to do visits but as she blocked me everywhere I asked the agency if they could call her on my behalf. She said she will leave the keys once she will get a new room.

    The new tenant will have a contract with the agency and there won't be a licensee anymore. In that case, if I told her to leave the 5th but she won't. How it will work with the new tenant who will sign a contract with the agency?


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    #85
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,400 ✭✭✭1874


    EddieSteele wrote: »
    Keep your comment for yourself. "likely they are bored at home on their own" such a mean and ridiculous comment...

    I have contacted the agency because I need to do visits but as she blocked me everywhere I asked the agency if they could call her on my behalf. She said she will leave the keys once she will get a new room.

    The new tenant will have a contract with the agency and there won't be a licensee anymore. In that case, if I told her to leave the 5th but she won't. How it will work with the new tenant who will sign a contract with the agency?


    Its a public discussion forum, you dont get to dictate what the replies are, its optional to like/agree/disagree or not.


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    #86
    EddieSteele
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭EddieSteele


    1874 wrote: »
    Its a public discussion forum, you dont get to dictate what the replies are, its optional to like/agree/disagree or not.

    No but I have the right also to say that your comment is ridiculous and mean. I am just wondering why you wasted your time replying to me, anyway... you are probably the one who is bored at home.

    For those who helped me previously, thanks for your advice and your comments. I will contact a lawyer tomorrow to get some legal advice.


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    #87
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,400 ✭✭✭1874


    EddieSteele wrote: »
    No but I have the right also to say that your comment is ridiculous and mean. I am just wondering why you wasted your time replying to me, anyway... you are probably the one who is bored at home.

    For those who helped me previously, thanks for your advice and your comments. I will contact a lawyer tomorrow to get some legal advice.


    I just thought you were on the wind up, you got reasonable and acceptable advice, and you didnt act on that, now you are in a situation where you have an agent making the rules for you,
    To say you are getting a lawyer is pointless, there would be no point, what is there for them to do?


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    #88
    EddieSteele
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭EddieSteele


    1874 wrote: »
    I just thought you were on the wind up, you got reasonable and acceptable advice, and you didnt act on that, now you are in a situation where you have an agent making the rules for you,
    To say you are getting a lawyer is pointless, there would be no point, what is there for them to do?

    Would you tell me how can I get a contact with her while she blocked me everywhere and doesn't want to talk to me and refuses to open her door and I knocked at her door? I am really curious about your response to this.


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    #89
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,400 ✭✭✭1874


    EddieSteele wrote: »
    Would you tell me how can I get a contact with her while she blocked me everywhere and doesn't want to talk to me and refuses to open her door and I knocked at her door? I am really curious about your response to this.


    My understanding was the person was brought in by you/ but there was the OP and then your posts started appearing, so if this person was a licencee then they have no rights, if you gave them a contract, as a licencee, then more fool you, but you could have chucked them out inside 6 months or got the landlord onside somehow and had them decline your licensee, just letting someone ignore you means you tackle them head on, you have to be more clued in on what your rights are and what theirs are relative to that, as soon as someone begins anything questionable or troublesome, you should have turfed them out, lock the door after they leave, whether that was for a breach of rules, drugs, people staying over, whatever, just have to deal with it head on, otherwise, it drags out


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    #90
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,339 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Marcusm wrote:
    Your post is not correct; it is section 50(7)&(8) Residential Tenancies Act 2004 and the landlord cannot freely refuse, it must act reasonably.


    This only applies for a normal tenancy, not where a homeowner has a licencee.


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    #91
    virgo69
    Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭virgo69


    EddieSteele wrote: »
    Keep your comment for yourself. "likely they are bored at home on their own" such a mean and ridiculous comment...

    I have contacted the agency because I need to do visits but as she blocked me everywhere I asked the agency if they could call her on my behalf. She said she will leave the keys once she will get a new room.

    The new tenant will have a contract with the agency and there won't be a licensee anymore. In that case, if I told her to leave the 5th but she won't. How it will work with the new tenant who will sign a contract with the agency?

    No point in getting shirty with posters, you are confusing posters. First, you where the main tenant and she was your licencee, then she complained to the landlord and now there's an agency involved, where did they come from?

    You came in on someone else's thread, you were given advice, you decided not to take it, i.e. turf her out immediately, is it any wonder people are questioning if you are for real.


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