Govt to replace Direct Provision with protection system

fantaiscool

fantaiscool wrote: »

Really good article here. It's hard to disagree with it. Great stuff from the Independent.

I disagree with the article. Want to defend it?

Note: Actually defend it. No deflecting, no dancing around, etc like you usually do.

We have a m​​​​​​oral obligation to treat migrants humanely

Marketing spin, and a guilt trip.

TomTomTim

To think that we could get this policy the same year that we get the insane hate speech policy, that once again, hardly any of us have asked for. How can the government justify running on a mandate that no one voted for? They are creating life changing policies, with absolutely no regard for public support.

Mad_maxx

mgn wrote: »

The Greens should burn first, this is their baby,

The Greens will get a boost from this as it's important to their base and those who might vote Green ,FG and FF won't get anything

handlemaster

Should have rules enforced if your application for asylum is rejected . You are sent back to your home country. Its like at the moment win or lose you stay

TomTomTim

Deleted User wrote: »

I disagree with the article. Want to defend it?

Note: Actually defend it. No deflecting, no dancing around, etc like you usually do.



Marketing spin, and a guilt trip.

Jesus, it's bad.

The toll taken on all who came to our shores to be greeted with such indignities has been officially side-stepped for too long. We owe it to the millions who left our shores fleeing famine between 1799 and 1858, and who found a home on other shores, to do better.

This is hugely important in terms of independence. Writing in these columns during the week, the UNHCR’s Enda O’Neill, saw no reason why we can’t develop a system that protects the rights and dignity of those seeking refuge. He also urged us to seize the chance to promote more cohesive and socially engaged communities as we do so. It can only be a win for all concerned.

First they try and shame people based on the actions of the Irish of the past, then they are outright delusional about it being "a win for all concerned". It's certainly not a win for the native Irish and the general health of the nation.

kildare lad

Kivaro wrote: »

Roderic O' Gorman is our Children's Minister, but we still have many of our children in excruciating pain this morning in Ireland waiting for scoliosis surgeries. There are inadequate mental health services for our children and teens all around our country, and yet we do not hear a peep from him relating to these issues. If you try to get home health care for your parents or grandparents, you will be lucky to get one hour per week from the HSE. We are told that there is not enough funding for all of these examples above. Not enough funding.

Yet yesterday, Roderic O' Gorman declared that there will no cap on the numbers of asylum seekers who arrive in Ireland and receive their own homes within 4 months. Let me repeat what he said; there will be no cap on the numbers. So there is unlimited funding for asylum seekers coming to Ireland, but extremely limited funding for the people already living and working here. This is a surreal reality to take in. I can assure you that this is not the will of the majority in this country, but here we are in this abominable position. It is a disgrace.

Our minister for children doesn't have any kids . How would he know what's it's like to worry about your kids and their future. We've eamon Ryan as our minister for transport , if he had his way there's be no cars on the road . Angela merkel and other EU leaders who opened the floodgates to europe have no kids either. It's infuriating how out of touch these politicians are .

Field east

The ministers/ civil servants involved in the production of this white paper and the committee that examined the DP system/situation have not a clue about what they are dealing with because:-
(1) a refugee is a different entity to the citizen of a country - re the passport situation, illegal entry in most cases, etc, etc . So we are dealing with individuals that , in principal, should be treated totally different to a citizen. If anyone disagrees with this then what you are saying is that we should turn a blind eye to thousands that could enter the country illegally and treat them as if there are naturalized citizens withinmonths of arrival especially re own key housing, right to work, access to all social services, etc, etc. talking about a nuclear bomb going off and the PUSHBACK it could get from affected sectors of society - of which there are several

(2) IMO, there are two broad types of illegal enterants into the country
ie. economic migrants and those who’s lives are physically in danger because of war. Economic migrants are not refugees

(3) A genuine refugee has lost everything in most cases and who’ physical existence ‘ is under very serious treat. Most have come from a situation Of living in very basic accommodation -maybe even living on a landlords land eg . Mud huts. Living in very crowded conditions, very poor medical services , little or no social services, crop failure, violent weather at times , food/ income uncertainty and ABOVE ALL living in an environment where their physical lives are seriously under threat.
SO , what is so wrong with DP where ALL of the above points are very substantially/totally addressed. It’d never ceases to amaze me the demands that are made by local \ national agencies and some politicians given the circumstances that the genuine refugee has left. Yes , by all means , if the quality of life of a refugee within the DP system can be improved, then it should be done Eg provide more space, kids play area, improve kids education, allow to seek work - which is the case. BUT the key our own house/ accommodation -COME ON

In summary, what is the governments policy on the permanantsy of those that are given refugee status with regards to returning them to their home country when the war is over / change of regime to a ‘refugees are welcome home ‘ one or otherwise. And what is it’s policy if a refugee is ultimately found to be an economic migrant ? Does the gov also track the arrival of relatives that try to stay on in Ireland and if they are from the refugees home country then that refugee had a ‘home base’ all along.
Does the gov have a policy of working on the repatriation of refugees - obviously short, mid and very long term work - re legal standing, documents to property , etc

In conclusion, I am totally for we taking in genuine refugees and treating them fairly with dignity and with respect but we should be a bit more analytical in how we approach the issue and be mindful of their normal economic living circumstances back home.

Mad_maxx

you really do have to wonder what kind of people demand we take in people regardless of if their stories are bogus ?

every bogus refugee takes a spot of both genuine people fleeing persecution and people who honestly follow a migrant visa application , they cheat both sets of people

the people for who,m "end DP" is a social media banner must be incredibly vacuous and shallow

Mr. teddywinkles

John Doe1 wrote: »

Absolute Quislings!

I have no problem with genuine immigrants escaping war-torn countries and Ireland is their first port of call, we are a rich country now and can accomodate a lot of these people.

But even the biggest simpleton in Ireland knows that the vast majority of these people are economic migrants shopping around for the country with the most generous welfare system that will let them in.

The people who support this are incredibly naive, it might give them a short-term dopamine hit to appear to their peers to care for the downtrodden but the inevitable societal division, rise in crime (especially sexual assault) ghettoisation and terrorist attacks will be on their hands.

Love to know where all this were rich is coming from. We endured the last recession here not only a few years ago and lots of our young immigrated and never returned. Why the fook do people keep saying this. Why because I don't live in a mudhut. We've a aging population for a reason. Its expensive to have kids here and we just accept as the norm of immigration of our own kids abroad for a better life.

Mad_maxx

Mad_maxx wrote: »

you really do have to wonder what kind of people demand we take in people regardless of if their stories are bogus ?

every bogus refugee takes a spot of both genuine people fleeing persecution and people who honestly follow a migrant visa application , they cheat both sets of people

the people for who,m "end DP" is a social media banner must be incredibly vacuous and shallow

Except, now, there's no limit on who can arrive and gain benefits... Oh, they might be held during the investigation process, and subsequent appeals, but they're all going to be supported by the State. While previously your statement would have been accurate, it's not anymore, because they're creating a system that essentially opens the door wide.

Hamachi

Kivaro wrote: »

I highly recommend contacting all of your constituency representatives to let them know your disagreement. While they may not respond to your email, it will still have to register with them. If you do not express your sentiments then they will just presume that providing asylum seekers with homes and welfare at the expense of the native people is what we want. A quick email will only take a minute or two, and you can say to yourself that at the very least you registered your opinion on the matter.

Here are a couple of emails addresses that also should hear our views:
leo.varadkar@oireachtas.ie
micheal.martin@oireachtas.ie

Not to pimp it out, but I copied the bodies of my e-mails to my TDs, including Leo Varadkar, a few pages back. It may save some time and help organize your thoughts.

I’ve never done anything like this in my life before. Never had any desire to engage politically. I’m just totally flabbergasted by this insane policy and frankly am concerned about the future society my young kids will inherit. Not a concern for Roderic O’Gorman I know, but it is top of mind for me.

Doctor Roast

mugga123 wrote: »

How could this policy have been approved by government? It's so poorly thought out. A key to their own door after 4 months claiming asylum is crazy! If you were fleeing persecution or fearing death you would be glad of a DP centre. When the Irish cant get homes how can you give a home to people who just land here? All well and good to make conditions better for them but this is going to irritate many people. Better to spped up the process, deport those who are pretending, then there wouldn't be so many in the DP centre.

Because the majority aren't fleeing death and persecution, its a big scam. In places like Greece and Bosnia they've burned down their camps, here they go on hunger strike over food, its not the behaviour of people glad to reach safety from a warzone and I'd wager they're being coached along the way by certain groups... And sure why wouldn't they when the government is now going to give them their own accommodation after 4 months, I'm still shocked today over this.

Doctor Roast

Mad_maxx wrote: »

you really do have to wonder what kind of people demand we take in people regardless of if their stories are bogus ?

every bogus refugee takes a spot of both genuine people fleeing persecution and people who honestly follow a migrant visa application , they cheat both sets of people

the people for who,m "end DP" is a social media banner must be incredibly vacuous and shallow

Indeed all across Europe the well of sympathy has dried up for these "refugees", we've seen armies of young men with little to no women or children, NGO boats blatantly caught people trafficking, videos of young men on dinghies dumping their identification papers at sea, middle aged bearded "children". It's been lie after lie

ExMachina1000

Young folk: End DP! It's a disgrace

Government: Ok it's gone. We will give all and sundry houses and apartments even though there is record low availability.

Young folk: I'm living with my parents, I cant afford to rent or buy. There isn't enough houses.


You played yourselves.

Young folk will be living in converted living spaces above their parents and friends garages.
It worked out ok for Fonzy in Happy Days.
Brought it on themselves

agoodpunt

people who entered DP my be able to sue the State and it serves us right for allow our country to be set up open border setup 4 life even thought 90% are lying and have past through at leaset one other country to get here

Rodin

Geuze wrote: »

There seems a huge gap, which surely FG should be covering??

Surely they have staff who analyses these things??

Or are they simply moving left as society has moved left??

Society hasn't really moved left. The left are just more vocal.
People who work hard and pay their taxes are tired of supporting freeloaders and getting eff all back from the govt.

Kivaro

Hamachi wrote: »

Not to pimp it out, but I copied the bodies of my e-mails to my TDs, including Leo Varadkar, a few pages back. It may save some time and help organize your thoughts.

I’ve never done anything like this in my life before. Never had any desire to engage politically. I’m just totally flabbergasted by this insane policy and frankly am concerned about the future society my young kids will inherit. Not a concern for Roderic O’Gorman I know, but it is top of mind for me.

Fair play.
Usually an individualised email is better than a templated one. All it takes is just a few lines from a decent amount of voters to focus the minds of our elected officials. As I said earlier, even if they do not reply, their staff who read these emails will convey the content if there are enough of them.

Doctor Roast

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/lack-of-detail-on-how-to-clear-asylum-backlog-tempers-welcome-to-plan-1.4496386?mode=amp

"Ms Mustapha disagreed with claims that building and acquiring housing for asylum seekers risked leaving other vulnerable groups and homeless people without a home.

“We’re not saying put us at the top of the queue before Travellers or people who need accommodation. We’re just saying house us like human beings and don’t segregate us from society. The fact that I came here for asylum does not make me a criminal, I should be allowed to live like a human.”

But that's exactly what's going to happen....

Shakey_jake

Well I've emailed my tds

Have you??

Fling open the borders, guys. No harm could come of it.

Jinglejangle69

Shakey_jake wrote: »

Well I've emailed my tds

Have you??

I emailed Leo and Michael.

Leo likes to go with which way the wind blows so if enough people email him he might comment on it.

ExMachina1000

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Young folk: End DP! It's a disgrace

Government: Ok it's gone. We will give all and sundry houses and apartments even though there is record low availability.

Young folk: I'm living with my parents, I cant afford to rent or buy. There isn't enough houses.


You played yourselves.

Young folk will be living in converted living spaces above their parents and friends garages.
It worked out ok for Fonzy in Happy Days.
Brought it on themselves

Truth.

How many posters here have emailed TDs previously about the asylum system?
Had anyone?
Why does it take so long, what are they doing to speed it up?

That's where the problem lies.

Hamachi

bubblypop wrote: »

How many posters here have emailed TDs previously about the asylum system?
Had anyone?
Why does it take so long, what are they doing to speed it up?

That's where the problem lies.

I spoke to Jack Chambers personally about it when he canvassed my family’s home during the last general election.

Processing speed and lack of deportation of those found not to have a legitimate claim (80%-90%) are the root cause issues that need to be addressed. I conveyed this to him. This bill, if it gains traction, will serve as a pull factor for yet more spurious claimants.

mgn

Mad_maxx wrote: »

The Greens will get a boost from this as it's important to their base and those who might vote Green ,FG and FF won't get anything

Doubt it very much, even the Green voters are not that stupid to think that its a smart idea to give every asylum seeker that comes into the country a free house after 4 months.

I could be wrong though.

TomTomTim

Even the r/Ireland thread on this is full of sanity

This is beyond ridiculous.

I'll remind people that the majority of asylum applicants last year were Georgian and Albanian. Not exactly countries where there's a raging war or vast persecution of lgbt people.

This new system very much seems that a person can come here, claim to be fleeing persecution and within 6 months they will get own door accommodation, access to education etc....even if their application is complete bullsh*t...

And then the real kicker is that like they've done in the past, even if a persons apllication has been completely disproven, NGOs will say that because the individual is now integrated, you cannot deport them. Its happened several times before.

The fact that integration will start with the setting up of a bank account, accommodation, work, education etc..even while their application is still in process, makes this easy for them. So then after their claim is investigated and the board decide to deport, the NGOs will simply say:

"Oh this person is working, in education and is now living in the community...you can't deport him now even if his application IS false..."

And as they've done in the past the government will just go along with them and grant them leave to remain, all the while irish youth get shafted paying extortionate rent. This is infuriating.

"Oh this person is working, in education and is now living in the community...you can't deport him now even if his application IS false.."

I've never gotten a proper explanation as to why we can't deport them even after all that. Oh sure, I've heard it being said, but when asked why, I've only ever received deflections/topic changing or some vague references to morality.

_Kaiser_

statesaver wrote: »

The Greens are about identify politics now.

Anyone who voted Green in the last election should not be surprised by this. Their entire ethos is based on fantasy, but their reality is nothing more than taxing people more for it. They are a party for youthful idealists and comfortable upper middle-class who won't (they think) be affected by the policies anyway, not for the average Irish citizen.

How the Greens have been allowed such free reign over a key issue like this one is farcical - Micheal Martin wanted to be Taoiseach regardless of the cost (in the same way as Enda Kenny wanted to be the only FG Taoiseach to get a second term) so we end up with a weak ineffective Government with dangerous ideologues in key positions to push their agenda (Roderic isn't the first, Zappone was at this last time).

I said years ago on this forum that immigration would become the key election issue in the future and announcements like this ridiculous, divisive and potentially extremely damaging policy may well be the trigger.

As others have already said, we already have a situation where citizens and taxpayers cannot afford to buy a home or rent close to work or friends/family, and where those rental properties are being increasingly bought up by councils for social housing (in my own row of 4 townhouses there are 2 that were sold to the council in the last 2 years).
The net effect as someone else said early in the thread is that people end up competing not just against other renters but themselves as their taxes are being used to price them out of the market.

This policy will be like a magnet for every chancer with a sob story, and anyone who actually thinks that it'll be properly managed and policed must be new to the country themselves! This will be another cash cow for those already profiting from DP and because the system will be overwhelmed rapidly, the applicants will be shunted on to their forever home (that we'll pay for indefinitely) after 4 months regardless of the status of their claim.

This is without even considering the significant social issues and divisions already being seen in parts of Dublin (but which we're supposed to just ignore). We can look forward to these problems increasing and expanding nationwide as these 'poor refugees' are relocated wherever the councils can put them.

The alternative to all this is of course very simple...

- no ID or way of verifying who you are or where you're from?
- arrived illegally in the back of a container?
- arrived via a safe country?

... Back where you came from!

Additionally, the (small minority based on the existing numbers) actual legitimate refugees should only be supported until it's safe for them to go home. At that point they either return there or apply for residency like any other non-EU immigrant.

Another point that needs to be addressed is the issue of citizenship through time served that RTE like to show us the ceremonies of every so often. Residency and work is one thing, but citizenship is an entirely separate thing that shouldn't be based on how long you've been in the system.

The bottom line of course is that we have enough problems that we don't have the resources or political will to solve as it is, without taking in those of others on top of it - not forgetting we already pay hundreds of millions of Euro annually in foreign aid. In short we've done our bit for charity at state level.

On top of that, Ireland has no colonies or history of conquest. We have no responsibility for the problems of these countries and no guilt to assuage.

Charity begins at home and that's what we should be focusing on.

Doctor Roast

I had an Irish fella teliing me on a YouTube video yesterday that Ireland is paying the price for its "participation in Europes colonialism and imperialism"

The modern left have no issue with rewriting history..

TomTomTim

Doctor Roast wrote: »

I had an Irish fella teliing me on a YouTube video yesterday that Ireland is paying the price for its "participation in Europes colonialism and imperialism"

The modern left have no issue with rewriting history..

They are some of the most dishonest political actors you'll find. Their lies are very easy to see through too, which is frustrating, as such a weak ideology should have little power, yet it has much.