Govt to replace Direct Provision with protection system

Mules

Mules wrote: »

My local FF td said that we must not pit different groups against each other

Was he implying you were doing that? Because frankly its their policies that are doing that nothing else. The department of housing is on record saying that the own door in 4 will pit asylum seekers and people on the housing list against each other

Tea drinker

Just on the students in direct provision thing....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/immigration-campaigner-revokes-bequest-to-ucc-over-khan-family-support-1.4143167

Mr Hamza (20), his brothers Zubair (17), Umair (16) and Mutjuba (14), their sister Shazadi (21) and parents Mubeen and Hina were spared deportation this week after a last minute intervention by Minister for Justice Charlie Flanagan.
..
...
My quarrel is with UCC effectively taking the position that once they have given a sanctuary scholarship to someone in the asylum process they must not, and their family must not, be removed from the country,” said Ms Ni Chonaill.

Eric Cartman

Tea drinker wrote: »

Just on the students in direct provision thing....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/immigration-campaigner-revokes-bequest-to-ucc-over-khan-family-support-1.4143167

accused UCC of “unacceptable arrogance” by calling for the Khans to be allowed stay despite being refused protection by the authorities.

She's 100% correct, how the academic world think they can ride roughshod over our laws to suit their feelings is the most pompous form of arrogance.

Gunmonkey

Tea drinker wrote: »

Just on the students in direct provision thing....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/immigration-campaigner-revokes-bequest-to-ucc-over-khan-family-support-1.4143167

Probably the most ludicrous part of that article:

The Khans came to Ireland through the UK in 2017 from Saudi Arabia where all five siblings were born.

The parents fled Pakistan in 1984 due to persecution and moved to Saudi Arabia but were forced to leave there when new laws imposed punitive taxes on foreigners.

They are fleeing from Saudi Arabia and claiming protection...because of TAXES! And not least the fact they came here from the UK.....and so must be claiming asylum from the UK

Kivaro

Gunmonkey wrote: »

Probably the most ludicrous part of that article:



They are fleeing from Saudi Arabia and claiming protection...because of TAXES! And not least the fact they came here from the UK.....and so must be claiming asylum from the UK

And there we have it, ladies and gentlemen; the lunacy of Ireland's asylum laws. I bet the 7 of them regret not waiting a couple of years .... where each one of them would be guaranteed their own home upon arrival on our cold island and utter the abracadabra word "asylum". It would just result in 7 Irish people knocked off the housing waiting list, but who cares (in Ireland)?

Montage of Feck

I'm claiming asylum in Monaco so!

ExMachina1000

Montage of Feck wrote: »

I'm claiming asylum in Monaco so!

Nice try but it only works in Ireland.
The good people of Monaco aren't gullible like us

Kivaro

Deleted User wrote: »

Was he implying you were doing that? Because frankly its their policies that are doing that nothing else. The department of housing is on record saying that the own door in 4 will pit asylum seekers and people on the housing list against each other

There are many issues with the Green Party's Roderic O' Gorman's asylum plan. The most glaring one is the expediency of housing for asylum seekers as soon as they arrive at the airport and declare asylum. Before we can adequately check their backgrounds or grounds for asylum, they will be guaranteed their own homes within 4 months. They could well be fleeing charges of murder, rape or other heinous crimes in their own country but recognise the ease of a new life in Ireland by just declaring asylum when they get here.

So when this is written into law, we will have situations where Irish women who give birth to children with special needs (for example) who need their own individual housing, could by bypassed by asylum seekers with dubious claims who are only in the country 4 months. This is insane.

ExMachina1000

Kivaro wrote: »

There are many issues with the Green Party's Roderic O' Gorman's asylum plan. The most glaring one is the expediency of housing for asylum seekers as soon as they arrive at the airport and declare asylum. Before we can adequately check their backgrounds or grounds for asylum, they will be guaranteed their own homes within 4 months. They could well be fleeing charges of murder, rape of other heinous crimes in their own country but recognise the ease of a new life in Ireland by just declaring asylum when they get here.

So when this is written into law, we will have situations where Irish women who give birth to children with special needs (for example) who need their own individual housing, could by bypassed by asylum seekers with dubious claims who are only in the country 4 months. This is insane.

To top it off 93% of the population didn't even vote for the greens.

Tea drinker

Doctor Roast wrote: »

Simon Coveny
"We estimate over the next 20 years that the population of Ireland will certainly grow by an extra million people. Linked to that estimate is that half of that number won't have been born in Ireland. I think that will be a really good thing for Irish society but we do need to manage it carefully so we don't allow the politics of migration to play a big part in Irish politics because I think it pulls us down a dangerous direction. "

Too late, we're already going down that road...

Well we blew 20+ billion of the pension fund on socialism for the banks, now any hope of a pension will disappear with socialism for the rest of the world.
The new green deal being proposed for 2050 is undeliverable given we plan to increase the population at least 1 million in the next 20 years alone...
Who is going to want to work here with no future and no pensions? Outside of the mainstream parties SF are staunchly anti worker and arguably anti Irish in their support of these mental immigration policies. After Northern Ireland became old news they have struggled to find any relevance, only finding traction on "right on" contemporary issues.



Governance framework to set out how Ireland will reduce our greenhouse gas emissions by, on average, at least 7% per annum for the next ten years
https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/aecb3-government-publishes-new-climate-law-which-commits-ireland-to-net-zero-carbon-emissions-by-2050/#:~:text=Press%20release-,Government%20publishes%20new%20climate%20law%20which%20commits%20Ireland%20to,zero%20carbon%20emissions%20by%202050&text=The%20Government%20has%20today%20published,become%20climate%20neutral%20by%202050.

punisher5112

The greens are insane, they're going to ruin us.

Sand

punisher5112 wrote: »

The greens are insane, they're going to ruin us.

The greens have always been awful in government. If I recall correctly, their last spell in power was spent extending an open ended blank cheque to bankrupt financial institutions that dragged the country down into disaster that we still haven't recovered from. Up to and including conspiring to prevent a by-election from being held because they knew the government would lose it. Awful party where the dregs of politics assemble extremely dubious agendas to inflict on people.

biko

Greens seems to have more in common with other greens in other countries than their fellow citizens.
For some reason they are all open-borders, which is opposite to climate friendly and also detrimental to any welfare economy society.

Ireland cannot carry poor people from around the world.
For the cost of a single economic migrant we can help many many more their locality.

Last year Ireland spent €183 million on DP.
The increased spend represents a more than a doubling of costs since 2018, when the bill for the network of accommodation centres for asylum seekers reached €78m, the highest spend since 2010.

You can see how the costs are spiralling and since year 2000, Direct Provision has cost Ireland's taxpayers €1.3 billion.

Mules

Deleted User wrote: »

Was he implying you were doing that? Because frankly its their policies that are doing that nothing else. The department of housing is on record saying that the own door in 4 will pit asylum seekers and people on the housing list against each other

I don't think he was implying that I was doing it. He might have been but it read more like 'society mustn't let that happen'
Of course, if the government wanted to turn people against asylum seekers they couldn't have come up with a better idea than this plan, but the government td's seem oblivious to that.

Mules

Gunmonkey wrote: »

Probably the most ludicrous part of that article:



They are fleeing from Saudi Arabia and claiming protection...because of TAXES! And not least the fact they came here from the UK.....and so must be claiming asylum from the UK

That's disgraceful. The system is a joke. How can the people advocating for this family do it with a straight face. Why were they allowed to stay, it makes no sense. The politicians are very cowardly when the media puts any pressure on them. You can be sure when the Khans 'fled 'Saudi over having to pay tax, they won't deign to pay any here.

I wonder is all this about the Ireland 2040 plan? They want a 1 million increase in the population so they see this as a.handy way to get it.

Jinglejangle69

Mules wrote: »

That's disgraceful. The system is a joke. How can the people advocating for this family do it with a straight face. Why were they allowed to stay, it makes no sense. The politicians are very cowardly when the media puts any pressure on them. You can be sure when the Khans 'fled 'Saudi over having to pay tax, they won't deign to pay any here.

I wonder is all this about the Ireland 2040 plan? They want a 1 million increase in the population so they see this as a.handy way to get it.

Once again I have to debuke this nonsense.

The government don't want to increase the population by 1 million by 2040.

They PROJECT that's what the increase will be.

Every week someone comes up with this blatent lie.

Jinglejangle69

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Once again I have to debuke this nonsense.

The government don't want to increase the population by 1 million by 2040.

They PROJECT that's what the increase will be.

Every week someone comes up with this blatent lie.

?
You are playing word games. They control our immigration laws, of that 1 million increase only about 350,000 to 450,000 will be due to natural population increase, possibly less with fertility rates falling quickly. They aren't projecting, they are aiming for 1,000,000.

Simon Coveney himself said he wanted 500,000 non irish to come, he's not even going after returning irish emigrants. The "projection" can only be met by allowing mass immigration, they control the immigration laws, they are responsible.

Hamachi

[Deleted User] wrote: »

?
You are playing word games. They control our immigration laws, of that 1 million increase only about 350,000 to 450,000 will be due to natural population increase, possibly less with fertility rates falling quickly. They aren't projecting, they are aiming for 1,000,000.

Simon Coveney himself said he wanted 500,000 non irish to come, he's not even going after returning irish emigrants. The "projection" can only be met by allowing mass immigration, they control the immigration laws, they are responsible.

To be fair, those numbers aren’t quite correct. The annual excess of births vs. deaths in Ireland is typically about 30K. Taking that as a baseline, ~600K of the increase will be derived from natural increase. Our population pyramid is still relatively youthful for a developed nation. There’s no reason to suggest this level of natural increase will not continue for the next couple of decades.

Furthermore, when we look at inward migration, 20%-30% of those ‘migrating’ here annually are actually Irish people returning home. Given that many people who emigrated between 2008-2014 are now at the family formation age, that trend is likely to continue for a while.

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t trust the current government one iota on immigration. However, it’s important not catastrophize the situation either. It’s not terrific, but not quite as bleak as some are suggesting.

punisher5112

Ramon Ryan.... Wants Ireland to have at least 10 million.....this moron is all about saving the planet and resources etc but yet is that dumb to realize that if you increased the population then so does the impact on the planet and environment in this country.

What utter rubbish he comes out with.

jmreire

punisher5112 wrote: »

Ramon Ryan.... Wants Ireland to have at least 10 million.....this moron is all about saving the planet and resources etc but yet is that dumb to realize that if you increased the population then so does the impact on the planet and environment in this country.

What utter rubbish he comes out with.

Unless of course, maybe he thinks that all these immigrants will be gratefull, and vote green???

Hamachi

Hamachi wrote: »

To be fair, those numbers aren’t quite correct. The annual excess of births vs. deaths in Ireland is typically about 30K. Taking that as a baseline, ~600K of the increase will be derived from natural increase. Our population pyramid is still relatively youthful for a developed nation. There’s no reason to suggest this level of natural increase will not continue for the next couple of decades.

Furthermore, when we look at inward migration, 20%-30% of those ‘migrating’ here annually are actually Irish people returning home. Given that many people who emigrated between 2008-2014 are now at the family formation age, that trend is likely to continue for a while.

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t trust the current government one iota on immigration. However, it’s important not catastrophize the situation either. It’s not terrific, but not quite as bleak as some are suggesting.

I hear you but natural increase last year was 27,000, it is dropping every year, it won't be 30,000 ever again and will fall every year. Also last year Irish immigration was neutral, neither positive or negative, for the years before that I believe it was negative, so that makes the numbers even worse than I projected earlier.

Net immigration last year was + 29000, two thirds of which came from outside the EU

Edit for CSO figures:
Last year 500 Irish returned net. The year before was minus 2100 Irish which further makes the figures worse than the headline figure. Irish fertility level is also around 1.7 or less. We do have a few years of population momentum left but that is fading fast. This is not unique to Ireland, the entire world outside of Sub Saharan Africa has seen a massive crash in fertility rates in the last two decades, even traditionally robust areas like South America and the Middle East where fertility is crashing through the floor.

Hamachi

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I hear you but natural increase last year was 27,000, it is dropping every year, it won't be 30,000 ever again and will fall every year. Also last year Irish immigration was neutral, neither positive or negative, for the years before that I believe it was negative, so that makes the numbers even worse than I projected earlier.

Demographics are notoriously difficult to predict. It’s a fools game really. I’m not sure that I agree with your assertion that we’ll never see 30K natural increase again. The birth rate declined substantially in the late ‘80s and early ‘90s. I think it hit its lowest point in 1994 when the natural increase was just 17K.

There was a solid upward trajectory throughout the 00s, reaching a peak in 2008-2010, when natural increase exceeded 40K. We were still well above 30K as recently as three / four years ago. There’s always been fluctuations. That’s likely to continue. Another point to remember is that the large cohort of children born between 2000-2015 will themselves start entering the family formation stage of life in the coming decades. We’ll see an demographic echo effect from them as they start having children themselves.

I don’t feel so hopeless about all of this. Family has always been a priority for Irish people. I believe this basic impulse will always assert itself over transitory corrosive influences like Roderic O’Gorman.

Hamachi

Hamachi wrote: »

Demographics are notoriously difficult to predict. It’s a fools game really. I’m not sure that I agree with your assertion that we’ll never see 30K natural increase again. The birth rate declined substantially in the late ‘80s and early ‘90s. I think it hit its lowest point in 1994 when the natural increase was just 17K.

There was a solid upward trajectory throughout the 00s, reaching a peak in 2008-2010, when natural increase exceeded 40K. We were still well above 30K as recently as three / four years ago. There’s always been fluctuations. That’s likely to continue. Another point to remember is that the large cohort of children born between 2000-2015 will themselves start entering the family formation stage of life in the coming decades. We’ll see an demographic echo effect from them as they start having children themselves.

I don’t feel so hopeless about all of this. Family has always been a priority for Irish people. I believe this basic impulse will always assert itself over transitory corrosive influences like Roderic O’Gorman.

I hope your right but I do study demographics and I can only think of one or two countries who have ever had a rebound, one was Romania after the fall of communism, which faded again very quickly within a year or two. The other is Israel where religious groups are now having a significant effect on overall fertility levels making the still non religious majority groups less and less significant.

America is very likely to be in negative natural population growth within a couple of years. Their figures for this year are only positive 250,000 practically nothing in a country of 330,000,000.

Anyway, it is what is, nothing can really be done about it.

Hamachi

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Edit for CSO figures:
Last year 500 Irish returned net. The year before was minus 2100 Irish which further makes the figures worse than the headline figure. Irish fertility level is also around 1.7 or less. We do have a few years of population momentum left but that is fading fast. This is not unique to Ireland, the entire world outside of Sub Saharan Africa has seen a massive crash in fertility rates in the last two decades, even traditionally robust areas like South America and the Middle East where fertility is crashing through the floor.

Good point. That’s something I hadn’t considered is the ‘net’ migration figure for Irish nationals.

You know, if there’s one positive around the entire Covid situation and the current / coming recession, it will surely exert downward pressure on inward migration and may give Ireland as a nation some breathing space to recover from the extraordinarily high levels of the past several years.

Another positive about declining global fertility rates is that the pool of potential migrants will start to dry up in a couple of decades. The economies in Asia, Latin America, and parts of Africa will slowly improve, finally creating opportunity for a smaller cohort of young people who have less incentive to migrate to Europe. We’re seeing that already today. Net migration from Mexico to the US is currently neutral and Germany’s Turkish population is actually declining marginally every year.

Hamachi

Hamachi wrote: »

Good point. That’s something I hadn’t considered is the ‘net’ migration figure for Irish nationals.

You know, if there’s one positive around the entire Covid situation and the current / coming recession, it will surely exert downward pressure on inward migration and may give Ireland as a nation some breathing space to recover from the extraordinarily high levels of the past several years.

Another positive about declining global fertility rates is that the pool of potential migrants will start to dry up in a couple of decades. The economies in Asia, Latin America, and parts of Africa will slowly improve, finally creating opportunity for a smaller cohort of young people who have less incentive to migrate to Europe. We’re seeing that already today. Net migration from Mexico to the US is currently neutral and Germany’s Turkish population is actually declining marginally every year.

Yes, 100% agree

DerekC16

Coveneys exact words were : Over the next 20 to 30 years, effectively we want to double the size of all cities in population terms outside of Dublin. The population of Ireland will certainly grow by an extra million. Linked to that estimate is that half of that number wont have been born in Ireland.

Hamachi

DerekC16 wrote: »

Coveneys exact words were : Over the next 20 to 30 years, effectively we want to double the size of all cities in population terms outside of Dublin. The population of Ireland will certainly grow by an extra million. Linked to that estimate is that half of that number wont have been born in Ireland.

Coveney’s hypothesis didn’t reckon with Covid though. We’re likely to be in the economic doldrums for the next 5-10 years. If the opportunities don’t exist, people won’t migrate.

Let’s not forget that politics is also notoriously fickle. Coveney may well be a distant memory a decade from now, regardless of how relevant he believes himself today. That’s not to say he’s not a malignant influence right now. He’s clearly a disciple of Peter ‘undermine homogeneity’ Sutherland.

Doctor Roast

DerekC16 wrote: »

Coveneys exact words were : Over the next 20 to 30 years, effectively we want to double the size of all cities in population terms outside of Dublin. The population of Ireland will certainly grow by an extra million. Linked to that estimate is that half of that number wont have been born in Ireland.

Didn't they backtrack on that when they realised it was going down like a fart in a spacesuit?
Still I wouldn't trust those bunch of sleveens.. They'll destroy this country... Again

Jinglejangle69

[Deleted User] wrote: »

?
You are playing word games. They control our immigration laws, of that 1 million increase only about 350,000 to 450,000 will be due to natural population increase, possibly less with fertility rates falling quickly. They aren't projecting, they are aiming for 1,000,000.

Simon Coveney himself said he wanted 500,000 non irish to come, he's not even going after returning irish emigrants. The "projection" can only be met by allowing mass immigration, they control the immigration laws, they are responsible.

Link to Simon Coveney saying he wants 500,000 non Irish to come in please?

This is what I found.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-project-ireland-2040-ethnic-irish-4440742-Jan2019/?amp=1

"But nowhere does Project Ireland 2040 mention that this population growth will be achieved by “importing” migrants to Ireland, from Africa or otherwise"

Jinglejangle69

DerekC16 wrote: »

Coveneys exact words were : Over the next 20 to 30 years, effectively we want to double the size of all cities in population terms outside of Dublin. The population of Ireland will certainly grow by an extra million. Linked to that estimate is that half of that number wont have been born in Ireland.

"But nowhere does Project Ireland 2040 mention that this population growth will be achieved by “importing” migrants to Ireland, from Africa or otherwise"

So he never actually said he wants 500,000 non Irish to come in.

Just what I thought, thanks.

Have you a link to the full transcript?

Cheers.