Govt to replace Direct Provision with protection system

Hamachi

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Most countries periodically regularise undocumented migrants. I suppose you could counter that by arguing that no country has a functional immigration system, but you'd probably be in a minority there. There is some logic to regularising the situation of someone who's found gainful employment and wants to contribute to society as opposed to deporting them only for them to be replaced by another undocumented migrant.

That wouldn’t be my counter argument at all. History tells us that any mass regularization of undocumented aka illegal migrants, triggers a surge in further illegal migration as others attempt to avail of the perceived leniency in the destination country. See the ‘80s regularization initiated by Ronald Reagan in the US.

Like I said, the optimal path forward is removing those who have committed a criminal offense, namely flouting the migration laws of this country.

Chips Lovell

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Most countries periodically regularise undocumented migrants. I suppose you could counter that by arguing that no country has a functional immigration system, but you'd probably be in a minority there. There is some logic to regularising the situation of someone who's found gainful employment and wants to contribute to society as opposed to deporting them only for them to be replaced by another undocumented migrant.

Anyway, this has very little to do with Direct Provision.

Most countries also make a serious effort to deport illegal migrants whenever they're detected/found... as opposed to letting most of them go, and continue living in the country. Which is what happens in Ireland.

As for being unrelated to Direct Provision, I'd disagree since it concerns the attitude in this country towards deporting those who have failed to achieve a valid legal status. Many of those in DP are remaining there due to their appeals (on rulings that already denied their claims), or those who are waiting for documentation which should have been available on entry to Ireland.

A harder stance on illegals with subsequent deportations, would likely result in a harder stance on failed applications for Asylum, thus decreasing the numbers staying in DP.

Chips Lovell

I haven't seen too much evidence that we're lax on deportation compared to other countries. Of course, it's probably something that's hard to measure, since undocumented migrants are very much a "known unknown", i.e. you don't know how many you have unless you succeed in identifying them all, ergo you don't know what proportion of them you're deporting.

Aside from it being expensive, deportation is often easier said than done. You have to know where to deport them to and having a government on the other end will to accept the deportees.

Galwayguy35

Chips Lovell wrote: »

I haven't seen too much evidence that we're lax on deportation compared to other countries. Of course, it's probably something that's hard to measure, since undocumented migrants are very much a "known unknown", i.e. you don't know how many you have unless you succeed in identifying them all, ergo you don't know what proportion of them you're deporting.

Aside from it being expensive, deportation is often easier said than done. You have to know where to deport them to and having a government on the other end will to accept the deportees.

They broke the terms of their visa conditions when they overstayed, paid no tax by working in cash in the hand jobs and now are going to be rewarded for doing all that by the Justice Minister here.

She is letting her own personal views cloud her judgement.

It's also a slap in the face to the people who come here, follow all the rules and either renew their visa or leave when it runs out.

Chips Lovell

Chips Lovell wrote: »

I haven't seen too much evidence that we're lax on deportation compared to other countries. Of course, it's probably something that's hard to measure, since undocumented migrants are very much a "known unknown", i.e. you don't know how many you have unless you succeed in identifying them all, ergo you don't know what proportion of them you're deporting.

When illegals can avail of welfare, and other State benefits normally reserved for citizens (or legal/documented migrants), and with our government departments publicly stating that they won't identify those who do... then we're most definitely lax on deportations.

In any case, when you have an estimated 17k illegals (probably more) within a population like Ireland, then that's another indication of being lax.

Aside from it being expensive, deportation is often easier said than done. You have to know where to deport them to and having a government on the other end will to accept the deportees.

They're not Irish/EU citizens, and most of them initially entered the country legally at some point, which means there's a paper trail to show their nationality, even if they've managed to destroy their documentation. We don't need a government to accept deportees... we can simply drop them at the airports of that country, since these people are citizens of that country.

As for being expensive, i strongly suspect it's a lower cost than having them here availing of services. A one way plane ticket isn't very expensive to most destinations (which I know since I fly to Asia fairly often), and can often be quite cheap depending on circumstances.

https://www.thejournal.ie/direct-provision-roderic-ogorman-5443959-May2021/

Not one words about
The Irish people's thoughts on this.
The tax payer
The Irish in B&Bs or emergency accommodation
Our debt
Our health system
Our housing crisis.

All backed by NGOs and asylum groups in Ireland.
God I hope this goes pear shaped like all other notions the government introduce.
70% of issues such as legal aid and deportations are not finalised....

clytemnestra

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/direct-provision-roderic-ogorman-5443959-May2021/

Not one words about
The Irish people's thoughts on this.
The tax payer
The Irish in B&Bs or emergency accommodation
Our debt
Our health system
Our housing crisis.

All backed by NGOs and asylum groups in Ireland.
God I hope this goes pear shaped like all other notions the government introduce.
70% of issues such as legal aid and deportations are not finalised....

Surprised they're allowing comments. People are having none of it anyway.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/direct-provision-roderic-ogorman-5443959-May2021/

So O'Gorman says it won't work unless processing times are shorter but there are no legislative proposals even suggested to actually make it shorter. Anyone could have told you the solution would be to make the process more streamlined, instead his white paper focused on integration of everyone even people who probably are not eligible for asylum status so that they can then claim to be too integrated to leave.

They need to commit to some way of making it shorter and get the President to refer it to the supreme court to make sure its in line with the consitution so that there aren't a mount of judicial reviews

Masala

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/direct-provision-roderic-ogorman-5443959-May2021/

Not one words about
The Irish people's thoughts on this.
The tax payer
The Irish in B&Bs or emergency accommodation
Our debt
Our health system
Our housing crisis.

All backed by NGOs and asylum groups in Ireland.
God I hope this goes pear shaped like all other notions the government introduce.
70% of issues such as legal aid and deportations are not finalised....

... who yer wan wanting 'an amnesty' for those already in the system??

An Irish Passport is respected document..... not to be dished out like jelly babies! Then the flood starts when they get the right to being grannies, siblings, nephews etc over - again all undocemented with no background checks or checks of what they willing to contribute to society. Just MORE free houses... and endless cycle

That O'Gorman is going to ruin the country for those coming behind us.

decreds

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/direct-provision-roderic-ogorman-5443959-May2021/

Not one words about
The Irish people's thoughts on this.
The tax payer
The Irish in B&Bs or emergency accommodation
Our debt
Our health system
Our housing crisis.

All backed by NGOs and asylum groups in Ireland.
God I hope this goes pear shaped like all other notions the government introduce.
70% of issues such as legal aid and deportations are not finalised....

Ireland is absolutely screwed thanks to this. It will be a 2nd/3rd world country in 50 years.


As soon as the dust settles with this "pandemic", i will be moving my family to a country which values hard work and doesn't seem intent on rewarding 3rd world chancers at the expense of the tax payer while destroying the native culture in the process.


Many young professionals will follow suit. Huge brain drain on the way, all that will be left is bloated incompetent civil servants, dole head and fraudulent migrants. All leeching off the state.

Papa_Bear

Good God we are really finished as a country if this ridiculousness goes ahead. After reading that article and the comments of the hoodwinked in society below I really fear for the future.


Minister OGorman if your're reading this take note - your cards are already marked in terms of your career as a politician. You have failed this country very badly and you will certainly be remembered for what you have done and continue to do to the honest hardworking people of Ireland come the next election. I have not doubt that in time you wil find yourself back, bending young innocent minds in DCU were you can do alot less damage to our country.


Shame on you selling out your country and the Irish people.

decreds

decreds wrote: »

Ireland is absolutely screwed thanks to this. It will be a 2nd/3rd world country in 50 years.


As soon as the dust settles with this "pandemic", i will be moving my family to a country which values hard work and doesn't seem intent on rewarding 3rd world chancers at the expense of the tax payer while destroying the native culture in the process.


Many young professionals will follow suit. Huge brain drain on the way, all that will be left is bloated incompetent civil servants, dole head and fraudulent migrants. All leeching off the state.

Seriously considering the same myself.
This ridiculous new notion has honestly tipped me over the balance.
What country would you be thinking!!!
I'm even more furious about this whole thing than I was when it was mentioned, even more as I know there's nothing that can be done, all the emails sent here and beyond have done nothing.
The only way this can be scrapped is if it fails on government side, but they'll push it through, it'll fail when there's nowhere to put the economic asylum seekers...

TomTomTim

Papa_Bear wrote: »

Good God we are really finished as a country if this ridiculousness goes ahead. After reading that article and the comments of the hoodwinked in society below I really fear for the future.


Minister OGorman if your're reading this take note - your cards are already marked in terms of your career as a politician. You have failed this country very badly and you will certainly be remembered for what you have done and continue to do to the honest hardworking people of Ireland come the next election. I have not doubt that in time you wil find yourself back, bending young innocent minds in DCU were you can do alot less damage to our country.


Shame on you selling out your country and the Irish people.

The problem with people like him is that they don't care what people like you or me think of them, they only care about what people in their political circles think of them; circles where policies as such make them heroes. He'll likely be seen as some sort of martyr fighting against the bigoted views of the backwards plebs; doing what's right regardless of what the mob thinks. Of course this goes against the very nature of democracy, and how it is meant to be, but the narcissism of modern politicians have completely subverted the normative view of democracy.

Jinglejangle69

Rod and his ilk have no clue of the real world.

Never had to work hard and fight for anything.

That guilty feeling that they feel for been privileged is now at the expense of our future generations.


They don't care though, Nicely insulated from it all in their leafy suburbs and massive salaries.

Hamachi

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Rod and his ilk have no clue of the real world.

Never had to work hard and fight for anything.

That guilty feeling that they feel for been privileged is now at the expense of our future generations.

He won’t be insulated from it at the next general election. He only scraped in on the 20th count or something last time around. Mostly it was a protest vote against FG/FF. However, the people of Dublin 15 are now far more clued in to his agenda. He has a snowball’s chance in hell of being re-elected. It will be quite a the humiliating outcome, witnessing a minister losing his seat.

I get that folks on this thread are frustrated with our public representatives, particularly out-of-touch ideologues like O’Gorman. However, his fantasy white paper will never be implemented to any material degree. It will disintegrate when it comes up against harsh fiscal reality. His political career is also highly likely to be abruptly truncated in a couple of years.

Ireland is in a dangerous position right now. We are lead by a spineless political class who are more interested in soliciting likes on social media than serving their constituents. Nevertheless, most Irish people are fundamentally sensible and will push back against this idiocy in time. Many of our European neighbors have been in the very same position and managed to turn the corner. I feel confident that Irish people will have that same realization in the not too distant future.

In the meantime, voice your concerns to political representatives at every opportunity. Educate your family and friends on the hopelessly misdirected immigration policy currently in vogue in this country. The tide will turn and you can all help this gain momentum by voicing your opinions in a logical and respectful manner.

crooked cockney villain

Deleted User wrote: »

This is a meme but it really feels like it is as close to the truth as you can get on how these people view themselves

Do the Twitter #endDP mob, with their pink hair and their gender pronouns and all of that, do they ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe, the Nigerian Christians and the Algerian Muslims in DP who they spend their lives advocating for, that just maybe these people don't actually respect the whole gender fluid, pronouns, trans stuff? When Reeling in the Years was on the other night, Twitter was aflame with comments about the 700,000 (or whatever number it was) bigots, losers, cavemen, bastards who voted no in the Marriage Referendum. I don't know how politically engaged naturalised immigrants tend to be, but if we had a system like they have in the US Presidential Elections, where data is available showing how men, women, age groups and racial groups voted, if we ha that data for our Nigerian born citizens, I'd bet my savings a fairly whopping proportion would have voted No.

Ironically, if we had the sort of open borders, no deportations, completely free immigration and instant citizenship the left demands, our population of people from socially conservative countries would be much higher, and it is quite possible that if they voted in numbers the referendum would have failed.

But on a personal level, you can bet your life that people like Ellie Kisyombe privately regard their Irish supporters as being gullible, naive and thick as a plank. There is no respect there, just behind the back piss taking.

clytemnestra

Yep.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/new-irish-christians-gather-to-vote-no-in-referendum-1.2215842?mode=amp

The majority of "new Irish" hold views on homosexuality that would get them cancelled. Even eastern Europeans are pretty homophobic to be honest. But I've given up trying to look for any logic or consistency

Wibbs

Of the Poles, Russians, Nigerians, Pakistani/Afghans and Indians I have known and know the progressive ones are notable by their exception to the rule. Polish folks would have more among their number, Afghans the least. So called "Woke" is very much a passion and indulgence of Western European, White, middle class, more common among women than men, thought and even there it's not a massive majority.

Nokia6230i

So many on here, who, I'd assume, are Irish & therefore get the hall-pass that you are 1. Catholic and 2, by extension & logicaly, Christian too since Catholicism is a branch of that tree.

And yet they have a go at Nigerians because of their perceived anti LGBT thinking and that of Afghans, Poles etc.?

Stop using racist ideologies to cover up your own latent, underlying homophobia; it's hypocritical.

Many of you in 2018 inevitably opposed our highly successful Repeal of the Eighth Amendment Referendum.......yet you shared such views with many, for example, Muslims & Christians of other Christianity faiths.........yet that doesn't sit comfortably with you I'd imagine!?

Beechwoodspark

Wibbs wrote: »

Of the Poles, Russians, Nigerians, Pakistani/Afghans and Indians I have known and know the progressive ones are notable by their exception to the rule. Polish folks would have more among their number, Afghans the least. So called "Woke" is very much a passion and indulgence of Western European, White, middle class, more common among women than men, thought and even there it's not a massive majority.

Not surprised

Afghanistan is very very backward - partly due to Russia firstly and then the “Good ol US of A” bombing it back to the Stone Age this last 30/40 year....

Wouldn’t begin to try work out the attitudes and beliefs of afghans here

Gatling

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Not surprised

Afghanistan is very very backward - partly due to the “Good ol US of A”

Actually it was previously a open western leaning country that had well known universities and a huge supplier of fruits, until the Russians invaded , massacred a government and bombed the country back to the stone age Long before the USA got involved ,and when they were finished they left behind thousands of tons of weapons unsecured

Wibbs

Gatling wrote: »

Actually it was previously a open western leaning country that had well known universities and a huge supplier of fruits, until the Russians invaded , massacred a government and bombed the country back to the stone age Long before the USA got involved ,and when they were finished they left behind thousands of tons of weapons unsecured

Not quite. That's a bit of a fallacy fostered by a handful of pics of 1970's Afghani women in mini skirts and US propaganda against the Russians and latterly against the Taliban. Yes in small middle class enclaves in Kabul that was in place for a time, but beyond that and in the hinterlands it was a deeply conservative country and culture. It wasn't a huge stretch to go back to that.

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Wouldn’t begin to try work out the attitudes and beliefs of afghans here

Very sound guys actually, with varying degrees of attitudes that might run counter to modern progressive secular Ireland. Like any coming from a much less secular culture really.

Nokia6230i wrote: »

So many on here, who, I'd assume, are Irish & therefore get the hall-pass that you are 1. Catholic and 2, by extension & logicaly, Christian too since Catholicism is a branch of that tree.

And yet they have a go at Nigerians because of their perceived anti LGBT thinking and that of Afghans, Poles etc.?

Stop using racist ideologies to cover up your own latent, underlying homophobia; it's hypocritical.

Many of you in 2018 inevitably opposed our highly successful Repeal of the Eighth Amendment Referendum.......yet you shared such views with many, for example, Muslims & Christians of other Christianity faiths.........yet that doesn't sit comfortably with you I'd imagine!?

I don't get a "hall pass" for anything as I'm not an American high school student, never mind that its usuage in this case is wide of the mark.

Shock of shocks I voted what you would no doubt consider on the "correct" side of both the Repeal and SSM marriage referendums and the two divorce ones before it, the first of which wasn't passed. As a kid I caught the tail end of good oul Catholic Ireland where teenage girls gave birth in fields, statues danced a jig to mumbled rosaries, johnnies were only available by prescription to married couples and Fr Ted was a documentary without the laughs. I most certainly have no desire to revisit such a past or the backward attitudes of same. Nor do I wish to import them thanks very much.

And as for the "highly successful Repeal of the Eighth Amendment Referendum", a third voted no. Not exactly a landslide. Same for the SSM referendum. You might think we should pat ourselves on the back, the winners always do, but when a third of voters think quite differently it's not a great idea to be complacent.

So maybe rather than jump to wild projections on the homophobia and hypocrisy of others as some point scoring exercise that makes you feel better, it might serve debate better if you had more salient points to make on the subject at hand.

jmreire

Afghans are still very much conservative, and have not changed their attitudes that much...travel outside the main cities, and its like travelling back wards in time. Even in Kabul the present day, and after 20 years of imported western culture, the internet etc. outside of relatively small groupings, they are still pretty much the same, especially in their mindset. One of my Afghan colleagues from Kabul was telling me that while his wife is well able to drive, and they have a car, she never drives it because of the hassle she faces from Police, bystanders etc. Its just not culturally aceptable.

Feadog999

I emailed Deirdre Conroy who is running in the upcoming by-election for FF. Roughly, the same email as I posted here previously. I said i hope it was ok that I sent it to her cllr email as I didnt see a campaign email. She replied saying to email the campaign manager Jim O'Callaghan :rolleyes:

Hamachi

Nokia6230i wrote: »

Stop using racist ideologies to cover up your own latent, underlying homophobia; it's hypocritical.

Many of you in 2018 inevitably opposed our highly successful Repeal of the Eighth Amendment Referendum.......yet you shared such views with many, for example, Muslims & Christians of other Christianity faiths.........yet that doesn't sit comfortably with you I'd imagine!?

I voted the ‘correct’ way in both recent referenda. I also have a first cousin who is gay and married to his partner. My entire family attended his wedding and his partner, who happens to be from another EU country, is very popular amongst all my relatives in rural Ireland.

Nevertheless, I vehemently oppose Roderic O’Gorman’s white paper. It’s lunacy to propose the provision of ‘own door’ accommodation to a cohort of people, 80% of whom are proven to have no legitimate claim to be in this country. The Irish people are being taken for mugs. We’ve tolerated it for the last two decades but the push back is most assuredly starting to happen. Get used to it.

Oh and stop trying to conflate realism around immigration with homophobia, misogyny, or whatever else you can dredge up. It just proves the degree to which your argument is bankrupt and hollow.

WrenBoy

Nokia6230i wrote: »

So many on here, who, I'd assume, are Irish & therefore get the hall-pass that you are 1. Catholic and 2, by extension & logicaly, Christian too since Catholicism is a branch of that tree.

And yet they have a go at Nigerians because of their perceived anti LGBT thinking and that of Afghans, Poles etc.?

Stop using racist ideologies to cover up your own latent, underlying homophobia; it's hypocritical.

Many of you in 2018 inevitably opposed our highly successful Repeal of the Eighth Amendment Referendum.......yet you shared such views with many, for example, Muslims & Christians of other Christianity faiths.........yet that doesn't sit comfortably with you I'd imagine!?

I hear you're racist now father...

seenitall

I’m just back from a quick walk on a lovely day. I ran into a Middle Eastern asylum seeker I know (my work puts me in contact with them from time to time). That is, he saw me first and made a beeline for me to vent, basically. A guy in his thirties, with a wife and kids back home. He has broken English but it was much worse a few years ago. Told me his sibling got killed by the Taliban. I’ve known him a good few years now, must be some 4-5 years since he’s here in DP. Showed me his expired travel document issued by a ‘frontline’ EU country. Ranting about his kids not speaking to him as they don’t know him any more. About how he can’t go back to see them or they come here, basically. He’s working the hours he is allowed to, as a kitchen porter, not happy about that situation either (needs more money). Now I can never understand everything he unloads on me when I see him, but I got the jist of it alright. This time, if I hadn’t known him that long, I would have nearly been scared. The guy is practically jumping out of his skin with frustration. Generally speaking, this is a situation where you can start to see how someone from a similar
culture and with a more unstable mindset gets consumed by ideology and gets out a serrated knife with Allahu Akbar on his mind.

These men need to be either deported quick smart if their claim is found to be false (that’d be most of them, as most of them are coming from the countries not even at war) or they need to be integrated into the society and the economy, allowed the family reunification etc. Anything else is playing a dangerous game. I feel for this man, he seems to be a nice guy doing his best here, but on the other hand, I have always wondered how come he left his wife and children behind like that.... I’m sure there are millions like him, in his and his family’s circumstances back in his home country and other ones, e.g. in Africa, and Europe can’t be a neverending honeypot/safe haven/ultimate prize for everyone. It’s not sustainable, and is only going to lead to bloodshed and strife. I’ve made this point many times before.

clytemnestra

https://m.independent.ie/news/housing-minister-says-allocating-public-lands-for-housing-asylum-seekerscould-be-problematic-40476081.html

It is not "raising the spectre of the far right" to be concerned at the enormous resources being diverted from Irish people to mostly illegal immigrants. It's actually a view held by many normal decent sane people. But he feels he has to say it.

archfi

clytemnestra wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/news/housing-minister-says-allocating-public-lands-for-housing-asylum-seekerscould-be-problematic-40476081.html

It is not "raising the spectre of the far right" to be concerned at the enormous resources being diverted from Irish people to mostly illegal immigrants. It's actually a view held by many normal decent sane people. But he feels he has to say it.

This is the 'go to' for the government/politicians when any question about this plan of lunacy is put to them.

Remarkably, even if no question alluding to our present housing problem within the context of this shocking plan is put to them, they'll bring 'the spectre' up.
It's to shut people the hell up.

WrenBoy

clytemnestra wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/news/housing-minister-says-allocating-public-lands-for-housing-asylum-seekerscould-be-problematic-40476081.html

It is not "raising the spectre of the far right" to be concerned at the enormous resources being diverted from Irish people to mostly illegal immigrants. It's actually a view held by many normal decent sane people. But he feels he has to say it.

From the site when I finished reading that article, just to give a snapshot of whats going on at the minute as this project is being pushed ahead.

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