EU Digital/paper! Certs, the Megathread - threadbans in OP

francogarbanzo

Jim2007 wrote: »

When your pro-choice impacts the rest of society you will find that it is a very big problem for you, because people are not going to accept you making choices for them too.

If you're vaccinated, why would you care if I am?

If you're not vaccinated, why would you care if I am?

All the vaccine does is lower the chance of a severe reaction to the virus when you catch it. It doesn't prevent you from getting or passing on the virus.

Eric Cartman

BlaktainPicard wrote: »

And one day they will come for you.

I am pro vaccine btw and can't wait to take this and just get on with life, but we are on a dangerous path when we have a tiered society like this - what about people that genuinely can't get the vaccine for health reasons ?

My own personal opinion is this will be enforced at first, but when the globe reaches herd immunity and it won't be an issue anymore I don't think theyll give a crap at the borders and just wave people through.

Im early 30s and have no health conditions, im right down the list , will probably be one of the last to get it just out of timing, with the way the government is handling things and my work schedule (taking 2-3 hours out of a weekday is just near impossible for the next few months) Im likely looking at september/october before Im vaccinated through no fault or ill will of my own.

When the pub and the barbers returns ill be there day 1 of it , vaccinated or not. I think we need to absolutely avoid a 2 tier society that the likes of a ‘vaccine passport’ can bring , we either have to wait until 80% of eligible people are done and then open up (less preferred option) or open up without a requirement for the vaccine passport and let people make their own call on whether to go out or not.

AdamD

sydthebeat wrote: »

great then...

we'll take the socialist view of "no one can have it until everyone can have it" and delay the opening of these premises until the required herd immunity figures are reached... so everyone together can avail at the same time....

and force the business to remain shut until that date (lets call it 1st october)

OR

we can let people who have been vaccinated to avail of these business in ever growing numbers and allow these business to reopen , lets say 1st June

i dont know about you, but i think business have suffered enough already and it would only be wanton cruelty to force them to remain shut longer than absolutely necesary

Antares35 wrote: »

Really good point. As a 37 year old lucky enough to be without health conditions, I'm far far down the list when it comes to vaccines (hoping I'll get one for Christmas! ) and if I'm honest when I first heard the idea of vaccine passports I was a little annoyed, thinking "hey why do others get to do stuff I cant." but you're right, it makes no sense to say nobody should do anything until we can all do it. Business are crippled and the longer they are closed, the more people on PUP, the longer we will all be paying for it anyway.

FileNotFound wrote: »

As someone in the exact same position, I fully agree with you.


Lets get the country open and forget the selfish attitudes. Getting people back to work or out spending where possible will help reduce the overall costs. I am all for that.

You're all ignoring a very simple point. You want the government to do this so the economy gets to open up more. Every service you'd advocate for opening up to vaccinated people is manned by young people who will not have been offered a vaccine yet.

So you want young people to work in shops, salons, restaurants, bars etc. but not actually be allowed use the services themselves? How do you think that works?

You also seem to be assuming we can't open these services up anyway. Once we hit a certain level of vaccination these should open for everyone, not just the vaccinated. And this has nothing to do with anti-vax, or choosing not to be vaccinated. This is simply because not everyone will have even be offered one.

quokula

francogarbanzo wrote: »

If you're vaccinated, why would you care if I am?

If you're not vaccinated, why would you care if I am?

All the vaccine does is lower the chance of a severe reaction to the virus when you catch it. It doesn't prevent you from getting or passing on the virus.

First of all let's assume you're correct that vaccination doesn't prevent you passing on the virus, even though there is an ever growing body of evidence that it absolutely does reduce transmission.

But even if it doesn't, your choice to clog up hospitals and take healthcare staff away from treating other diseases and conditions absolutely affects vaccinated people.

Your decision to act as a petri dish for the virus and give it more potential vectors for mutation that might change vaccine efficacy also affects vaccinated people.

Then, if we do take account of the fact that vaccines almost certainly do reduce transmission, then your decision to spread infection to vaccinated people for whom the vaccination is not quite 100% effective will certainly affect and possibly kill some vaccinated people. And it will also affect those who can't yet be vaccinated, whether pregnant women, young children, or people with other conditions that prevent them from being vaccinated.

As with existing vaccinations for conditions like measles, mass take up creates herd immunity which protects the small number of people who can't be vaccinated for genuine reasons. The more people that refuse on the basis of their belief in dodgy science, the more harm it does to the whole of society.

bucketybuck

francogarbanzo wrote: »

If you're vaccinated, why would you care if I am?

A very pertinent question, likely to be ignored by many.

sydthebeat

AdamD wrote: »

You're all ignoring a very simple point. You want the government to do this so the economy gets to open up more. Every service you'd advocate for opening up to vaccinated people is manned by young people who will not have been offered a vaccine yet.

1. So you want young people to work in shops, salons, restaurants, bars etc. but not actually be allowed use the services themselves? How do you think that works?

2. You also seem to be assuming we can't open these services up anyway. Once we hit a certain level of vaccination these should open for everyone, not just the vaccinated. And this has nothing to do with anti-vax, or choosing not to be vaccinated. This is simply because not everyone will have even be offered one.

1. whats confusing about how it works?? why is it any different than how it worked after the first lockdown eased?? there would still be the same masking, sanitising, distancing etc Whether or not the staff can use the service is a complete red herring and in the grand scheme of things an absolutely minute argument.... i think the fact that the staff will actually be earning a wage easily negates any of the being put out. Again, they cannot use the service currently... so if these certs are applied then it wont effect them in any way other than positively.

2. the answer to that is simple as its already been posted

we'll take the socialist view of "no one can have it until everyone can have it" and delay the opening of these premises until the required herd immunity figures are reached... so everyone together can avail at the same time....

and force the business to remain shut until that date (lets call it 1st october)

OR

we can let people who have been vaccinated to avail of these business in ever growing numbers and allow these business to reopen , lets say 1st June

i dont know about you, but i think business have suffered enough already and it would only be wanton cruelty to force them to remain shut longer than absolutely necesary

is_that_so

Jim2007 wrote: »

When your pro-choice impacts the rest of society you will find that it is a very big problem for you, because people are not going to accept you making choices for them too.

All a vaccine passport will do is state that that you've been vaccinated not that you are not a risk. All the musing on choice here, makes sound like it's Hobson's Choice.

is_that_so

francogarbanzo wrote: »

If you're vaccinated, why would you care if I am?

If you're not vaccinated, why would you care if I am?

All the vaccine does is lower the chance of a severe reaction to the virus when you catch it. It doesn't prevent you from getting or passing on the virus.

It's business at work and restoring economies, not health. The health aspect is getting to 70%+.

Nozebleed

quokula wrote: »

First of all let's assume you're correct that vaccination doesn't prevent you passing on the virus, even though there is an ever growing body of evidence that it absolutely does reduce transmission.

But even if it doesn't, your choice to clog up hospitals and take healthcare staff away from treating other diseases and conditions absolutely affects vaccinated people.

Your decision to act as a petri dish for the virus and give it more potential vectors for mutation that might change vaccine efficacy also affects vaccinated people.

Then, if we do take account of the fact that vaccines almost certainly do reduce transmission, then your decision to spread infection to vaccinated people for whom the vaccination is not quite 100% effective will certainly affect and possibly kill some vaccinated people. And it will also affect those who can't yet be vaccinated, whether pregnant women, young children, or people with other conditions that prevent them from being vaccinated.

As with existing vaccinations for conditions like measles, mass take up creates herd immunity which protects the small number of people who can't be vaccinated for genuine reasons. The more people that refuse on the basis of their belief in dodgy science, the more harm it does to the whole of society.

this is not an assumption,its a fact.

FileNotFound

Nozebleed wrote: »

this is not an assumption,its a fact.

It's a fact that transmission may occur post vaccination, but how many of these cases are there per million?

Also the talk of a vaccine not stopping you from getting it - well unless someone is a simpleton they must understand you have to get something before your immune system can fight it.

Based on what we see in the UK, vaccines are highly effective at stopping transmission. Haven't seen any figures showing how X % of vaccinated people have been transmissible? Anyone got such figures?

Due to us all being different there will always be a few odd ones in the million.

NaFirinne

The vaccine passport will be required on a longer term basis then people realise. I don't believe that it will dissappear once he majority are vaccinated like a lot of people and media seem to be thinking.

You will find that everyone will most likely need at least a yearly or even six month vaccine shot and this is where the vaccine passport will come in handy...almost like an nct stamp for a car.

When your vaccinated you'll have set amount of time that your all clear good to go before requiring the next vaccine, and it will continue indefinetly like that. There will no doubt be more and more variants and even worse pandemics that this system will be utilised for.

Once we are on this train there is no getting off even when find out the final destination isn't the back to normal eveyone is hoping for.

FileNotFound

NaFirinne wrote: »

The vaccine passport will be required on a longer term basis then people realise. I don't believe that it will dissappear once he majority are vaccinated like a lot of people and media seem to be thinking.

You will find that everyone will most likely need at least a yearly or even six month vaccine shot and this is where the vaccine passport will come in handy...almost like an nct stamp for a car.

When your vaccinated you'll have set amount of time that your all clear good to go before requiring the next vaccine, and it will continue indefinetly like that. There will no doubt be more and more variants and even worse pandemics that this system will be utilised for.

Once we are on this train there is no getting off even when find out the final destination isn't the back to normal eveyone is hoping for.

Were crystal balls on sale on Amazon?

Didn't spot them in the Bargains thread... :D:D

NaFirinne

FileNotFound wrote: »

Were crystal balls on sale on Amazon?

Didn't spot them in the Bargains thread... :D:D

2020: Anyone Claiming There will be a vaccination passport is a conspiracy theroist and their dangerous misinformation must be stopped.

2021: Anyone opposed to a vaccination passport is a conspiracy theorist and there dangerous misinformation must be stopped

FileNotFound

NaFirinne wrote: »

2020: Anyone Claiming There will be a vaccination passport is a conspiracy theroist and their dangerous misinformation must be stopped.

2021: Anyone opposed to a vaccination passport is a conspiracy theorist and there dangerous misinformation must be stopped

I'd never describe Mystic Meg as a conspiracy theorist...

NaFirinne

Good news for Texas though as COVID cases has dropped to record lows on the year in the weeks since the state moved to scrap mask mandates

NSAman

No issues with Passorts. In Africa you have to have the Yellow Passport for Vaccines/shots for various diseases.

Just pop it in the regular passport and no issues at all....

Nozebleed

the government couldnt bring in an identity card for citizens...there was uproar over privacy laws and all sorts...there is no hop in hell of people accepting a vaccine passport.

El_Duderino 09

NaFirinne wrote: »

2020: Anyone Claiming There will be a vaccination passport is a conspiracy theroist and their dangerous misinformation must be stopped.

2021: Anyone opposed to a vaccination passport is a conspiracy theorist and there dangerous misinformation must be stopped

Go to the first pages of this very thread to check of your analysis is correct. Thread started in May 2020. Nobody mentions conspiracy theories or major opposition.

The usual conspiracy theorists and those who oppose everything might have been against it, but it really isn’t like you suggested above.

NaFirinne

Nozebleed wrote: »

the government couldnt bring in an identity card for citizens...there was uproar over privacy laws and all sorts...there is no hop in hell of people accepting a vaccine passport.

You didn't have Businesses on the brink of bankrupcy and severe lockdowns in place when they were bringing out the identity card.


Also the Vaccine Passport is being pushed by the EU, WHO and China whom first developped the platform for their social credit scoring system.

Nozebleed

NaFirinne wrote: »

You didn't have Businesses on the brink of bankrupcy and severe lockdowns in place when they were bringing out the identity card.


Also the Vaccine Passport is being pushed by the EU, WHO and China whom first developped the platform for their social credit scoring system.

would you class this idea as a positive?

NSAman

NSAman wrote: »

No issues with Passorts. In Africa you have to have the Yellow Passport for Vaccines/shots for various diseases.

Just pop it in the regular passport and no issues at all....

This is a passport for going to the restaurant, going to the cinema, to a football match, to a concert etc. It's the not the same as a travel vaccination.

NaFirinne

NaFirinne wrote: »

The vaccine passport will be required on a longer term basis then people realise. I don't believe that it will dissappear once he majority are vaccinated like a lot of people and media seem to be thinking.

You will find that everyone will most likely need at least a yearly or even six month vaccine shot and this is where the vaccine passport will come in handy...almost like an nct stamp for a car.

When your vaccinated you'll have set amount of time that your all clear good to go before requiring the next vaccine, and it will continue indefinetly like that. There will no doubt be more and more variants and even worse pandemics that this system will be utilised for.

Once we are on this train there is no getting off even when find out the final destination isn't the back to normal eveyone is hoping for.

You're right. The problem is that almost everything is dismissed as a conspiracy theory. People don't want to admit that the so-called conspiracy theorists were right.

Here is the Prime Minister of Israel, Binyamin Netanyahu, paving the way for vaccines every 6 months (as well as future lockdowns): https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/297683

"We are preparing for the possibility of renewing the Green Passport system every six months. It is possible that the coronavirus could come back, and we’ll see endless suffering from lockdowns, more infections, and more death.”

bucketybuck

Nozebleed wrote: »

the government couldnt bring in an identity card for citizens...there was uproar over privacy laws and all sorts...there is no hop in hell of people accepting a vaccine passport.

The people have rolled over and done exactly what they were told for a year now, at this stage you could cull their first born in the name of covid and in response they would probably start shaming childless couples for not doing their part.

NaFirinne

NaFirinne wrote: »

2020: Anyone Claiming There will be a vaccination passport is a conspiracy theroist and their dangerous misinformation must be stopped.

2021: Anyone opposed to a vaccination passport is a conspiracy theorist and there dangerous misinformation must be stopped

Nice sweeping generalisations there.

drunkmonkey

ddarcy wrote: »

I believe Chile is using the Chinese vaccine Sinovac and this is where the issue is. So there could be issues there.

That's interesting, I read a report a couple of weeks ago that the Chinese vaccine was the one most likely to cause ADE, I wonder is it after happening there, complete disaster if it has.

francogarbanzo

quokula wrote: »

First of all let's assume you're correct that vaccination doesn't prevent you passing on the virus, even though there is an ever growing body of evidence that it absolutely does reduce transmission.

But even if it doesn't, your choice to clog up hospitals and take healthcare staff away from treating other diseases and conditions absolutely affects vaccinated people.

Your decision to act as a petri dish for the virus and give it more potential vectors for mutation that might change vaccine efficacy also affects vaccinated people.

Then, if we do take account of the fact that vaccines almost certainly do reduce transmission, then your decision to spread infection to vaccinated people for whom the vaccination is not quite 100% effective will certainly affect and possibly kill some vaccinated people. And it will also affect those who can't yet be vaccinated, whether pregnant women, young children, or people with other conditions that prevent them from being vaccinated.

As with existing vaccinations for conditions like measles, mass take up creates herd immunity which protects the small number of people who can't be vaccinated for genuine reasons. The more people that refuse on the basis of their belief in dodgy science, the more harm it does to the whole of society.

First I'd like to point out that we have to make a lot of assumptions about the vaccine here because there are so many unknowns. This in itself is one reason why someone may decide not to take the vaccine yet. I haven't yet decided if I'm going to get the vaccine (coercion by way of locking access to general society behind a vaccine passport [if that's where this is going] isn't exactly making me want to run to the nearest pharmacy to get the jab btw.)

"But even if it doesn't, your choice to clog up hospitals and take healthcare staff away from treating other diseases and conditions absolutely affects vaccinated people. "

Whether or not I decide to take the vaccine is unlikely to have any effect whatsoever on hospitals because I'm extraordinarily unlikely to be hospitalised by Covid. If I were in the cohort that was more likely to be hospitalised, your argument might make more sense, but in that case I'd also be more likely to make the decision to get the vaccine.

"Your decision to act as a petri dish for the virus and give it more potential vectors for mutation that might change vaccine efficacy also affects vaccinated people."

Can you expand on this? What evidence is there that variants don't mutate in vaccinated people but do mutate in non-vaccinated people?

"Then, if we do take account of the fact that vaccines almost certainly do reduce transmission, then your decision to spread infection to vaccinated people for whom the vaccination is not quite 100% effective will certainly affect and possibly kill some vaccinated people. "

So I need to get the vaccine so that I don't potentially kill vaccinated people? I thought the vaccine was effective? If it is effective, your argument doesn't make any sense. If it's not effective, why would I get it in the first place?

virginmediapls

Deleted User wrote: »

This is a passport for going to the restaurant, going to the cinema, to a football match, to a concert etc. It's the not the same as a travel vaccination.

Good, hope its brought in sooner

Beechwoodspark

Liam Herrick from the Irish council of civil liberties very strongly against the concept on RTÉ few mins ago.

Says it would be dreadful to have this as mandatory

stargazer 68

Well Bahrain is now the first country to 'ban' the unvaccinated. From the 1st day of Eid only those who are vaccinated or have recently had covid will be allowed access to cinemas, restaurants, gyms, spas etc!

virginmediapls

So many eejit conspiracy theorists inhabiting these threads now