EU Digital/paper! Certs, the Megathread - threadbans in OP

bucketybuck

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I think the practicalities of this are going to get a bit awkward. You already have shop workers police people about masks and now you are going to have to be policing people's vaccines in entertainment settings.

I guess some people just want to police others.

We are talking about vaccine controls "after" all the vulnerable have been vaccinated. If the process was taking years there might be some merit to it, but supposedly it will only be a month or two before most are done so really, what us the logic behind all this?

A solution in search of a problem, or something more nefarious?

International travel passports? Sure, understandable. Anything beyond that is very troubling.

astrofool

astrofool wrote: »

Vaccine passports don't target any particular race and aren't being brought in to make it harder for a particular race to be vaccinated, the opposite is true for voter ID being a new requirement in the states, hence why people think it's racist (there should always have been ID for voters, but bringing it in after a loss to target a community who don't vote for you is racist). Although it is interesting how you feel safe to bring up race issues here and not in other forums on boards.

Interesting that people are only worried about fairness of vaccine passports, when reality is that by June, the majority of adults will be vaccinated anyway, they'll definitely be needed for travel internationally (at least 1 dose), they might be needed domestically.

Any anti-vaxxers here that are worried about the system? I mean once everyone has been offered a vaccine and people don't need to whine about fairness anymore.

Do you think it should be vaccine passport + mask, or vaccine passport means no more mask?

TomSweeney

You don't need to be an anti vaxxer to see that this is really a bad idea, it is the same system as the Chinese social credit scores - dystopian dangerous 2 tiered society.

Why will they need them anyway once most adults are vaccinated ?

hmmm

bucketybuck wrote: »

We are talking about vaccine controls "after" all the vulnerable have been vaccinated. If the process was taking years there might be some merit to it, but supposedly it will only be a month or two before most are done so really, what us the logic behind all this?

Just because you have a vaccine doesn't mean you are guaranteed not to get Covid. Similarly there will be a lot of unvaccinated people in the community, mostly kids and people who are unable (e.g. immuno-compromised) or some other genuine reason not to get vaccinated. We can't afford to have widescale transmission of the virus, even if the unvaccinated don't think they themselves are at risk.

This idea that we only need to vaccinate the "vulnerable" has been disproven by Brazil, where there are large numbers of young people in ICU, and Chile which vaccinated nearly 50% of its population and had to urgently lock down again.

bucketybuck

hmmm wrote: »

Just because you have a vaccine doesn't mean you are guaranteed not to get Covid. Similarly there will be a lot of unvaccinated people in the community, mostly kids and people who are unable (e.g. immuno-compromised) or some other genuine reason not to get vaccinated. We can't afford to have widescale transmission of the virus, even if the unvaccinated don't think they themselves are at risk.

This idea that we only need to vaccinate the "vulnerable" has been disproven by Brazil, where there are large numbers of young people in ICU, and Chile which vaccinated nearly 50% of its population and had to urgently lock down again.

Any thoughts on what I actually said?

TomSweeney

TomSweeney wrote: »

You don't need to be an anti vaxxer to see that this is really a bad idea, it is the same system as the Chinese social credit scores - dystopian dangerous 2 tiered society.

Why will they need them anyway once most adults are vaccinated ?

Yes. And note that it's a vaccine passport, not a covid passport. What's to stop the State from making the flu vaccine mandatory? Or every vaccine out there for that matter.

bucketybuck

bucketybuck wrote: »

I guess some people just want to police others.

We are talking about vaccine controls "after" all the vulnerable have been vaccinated. If the process was taking years there might be some merit to it, but supposedly it will only be a month or two before most are done so really, what us the logic behind all this?

A solution in search of a problem, or something more nefarious?

International travel passports? Sure, understandable. Anything beyond that is very troubling.

I fear it's control.

TomSweeney

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes. And note that it's a vaccine passport, not a covid passport. What's to stop the State from making the flu vaccine mandatory? Or every vaccine out there for that matter.

good point, i'll take the covid vaccine but no intention to get the flu one - cos i dont ****ing need it ...

hmmm

bucketybuck wrote: »

Any thoughts on what I actually said?

You said "We are talking about vaccine controls "after" all the vulnerable have been vaccinated. " and I told you why this can't happen.

Again, I can't stress enough how little I care about the "rights" of those who won't take vaccines. Vaccine passports are for the rest of us.

astrofool

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you think it should be vaccine passport + mask, or vaccine passport means no more mask?

I think it will be +mask until at least Q4 this year unfortunately, there is still a (much lower) level of transmission from vaccinated people.

TomSweeney

TomSweeney wrote: »

good point, i'll take the covid vaccine but no intention to get the flu one - cos i dont ****ing need it ...

But you might be coerced into getting it, just like people will be coerced into getting this one.

SnuggyBear

hmmm wrote: »

You said "We are talking about vaccine controls "after" all the vulnerable have been vaccinated. " and I told you why this can't happen.

Again, I can't stress enough how little I care about the "rights" of those who won't take vaccines. Vaccine passports are for the rest of us.

Who's the us? I will take the vaccine as soon as its available but disagree with a vaccine passport.

astrofool

TomSweeney wrote: »

You don't need to be an anti vaxxer to see that this is really a bad idea, it is the same system as the Chinese social credit scores - dystopian dangerous 2 tiered society.

Why will they need them anyway once most adults are vaccinated ?

It's nothing like the Chinese social credit, when 1 other thing gets added to the COVID vaccine passport, then you can begin to worry.

jam_mac_jam

hmmm wrote: »

I don't agree that it will reduce custom.

For one thing, it will allow businesses open indoors sooner if they can guarantee they only admit vaccinated people. I'll be waiting a while for a vaccine myself, but I wouldn't begrudge any restaurant or pub or gym being allowed to open if they can only admit vaccinated people.

Similarly there has been some interesting findings in the airline sector. The flight routes which have had some of the most stringent restrictions (e.g. Hawaii from the US) have also had the highest load as people know that everyone on board was tested & likely to be Covid free. I wouldn't underestimate how much comfort it will give people, and how likely they are to want to return to indoor locations if they know that they will almost certainly not get Covid.

There's a lot more to consider here than the small minority who are going to refuse vaccines.

It's not just the small number of people who refuse vaccines. Its three months and we haven't even got the over 70s vaccinated. It's a large number you are discriminating against.

astrofool

astrofool wrote: »

I think it will be +mask until at least Q4 this year unfortunately, there is still a (much lower) level of transmission from vaccinated people.

I think an incentive for people would that vaccination means no more mask. Something like this: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-russia-restriction-idUSKBN29J25S

astrofool

astrofool wrote: »

It's nothing like the Chinese social credit, when 1 other thing gets added to the COVID vaccine passport, then you can begin to worry.

But the fear is that it could morph into a social credit system.

jam_mac_jam

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But the fear is that it could morph into a social credit system.

Of course it will. That's why it's digital and not just a card or a piece of paper.

hmmm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

It's not just the small number of people who refuse vaccines. Its three months and we haven't even got the over 70s vaccinated. It's a large number you are discriminating against.

Vaccine numbers are going to ramp up considerably from this month. We've had very little supply the first 3 months of the year, and that was expected.

You call it discrimination, I call it being practical. If pubs, restaurants, gyms are safe to open now for vaccinated people then I'm happy for them to do it and try and make up for lost income. I wouldn't like them to be forced to stay closed until everyone is vaccinated, that makes no sense.

bucketybuck

hmmm wrote: »

You said "We are talking about vaccine controls "after" all the vulnerable have been vaccinated. " and I told you why this can't happen.

Again, I can't stress enough how little I care about the "rights" of those who won't take vaccines. Vaccine passports are for the rest of us.

I have no doubt that you dont care about basic human rights, what is confusing is what you think a vaccinated person gains from this idea.

A majority will be vaccinated within months, you will already be safe, why is some boondoggle passport important to you? Is this just about superiority over others?

I'll take my vaccine, no doubt, but that doesn't mean we should ignore government overreach just because it wears the cloak of the almighty covid.

hmmm

bucketybuck wrote: »

I have no doubt that you dont care about basic human rights, what is confusing is what you think a vaccinated person gains from this idea.

There is no human right which allows you to spread a disease to another person because of indifference to vaccines. Our public health laws have always been very clear that the State can take actions (including incarceration) against people who put others at risk.

These passports are going to definitely be used in international travel this year, including within the EU, and again there is no human right to be allowed go on a foreign holiday - you will be laughed out of it by border control if you try to argue it.

jam_mac_jam

hmmm wrote: »

Vaccine numbers are going to ramp up considerably from this month. We've had very little supply the first 3 months of the year, and that was expected.

You call it discrimination, I call it being practical. If pubs, restaurants, gyms are safe to open now for vaccinated people then I'm happy for them to do it and try and make up for lost income. I wouldn't like them to be forced to stay closed until everyone is vaccinated, that makes no sense.

Why would they stay closed until everyone is vaccinated.

Its not either or. The UK is opening back up at the moment without everyone being vaccinated.

Now we have to have passports before we can open up again?

jam_mac_jam

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Why would they stay closed until everyone is vaccinated.

Its not either or. The UK is opening back up at the moment without everyone being vaccinated.

Now we have to have passports before we can open up again?

And the elephant in the room: Sweden has been open since March 2020.

jam_mac_jam

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Of course it will. That's why it's digital and not just a card or a piece of paper.

We'll just have to hope that there are countries that don't go down the vaccine passport road. It's horrifying what's going on in Israel, in my opinion.

astrofool

Deleted User wrote: »

But the fear is that it could morph into a social credit system.

This is the slippery slope argument, what you need to justify the worry is identify the next step and if it happens, then worry. What is the next step?

Deleted User wrote: »

And the elephant in the room: Sweden has been open since March 2020.

It hasn't, it really, really hasn't.

Masks will be around for a while after vaccines, most people don't care about wearing masks, some people really care and are irrational about it, those people will have to wait and be irrational for a while longer.

hmmm

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you confident vaccine passports would be got rid of post-pandemic?

There's no need for vaccine passports once the most dangerous phase has passed (probably Spring of 2022 in my opinion, countries will be cautious over Winter). Thankfully the vaccines look really good.

We don't have vaccine passports for flu, measles etc. I remember needing to get one for Yellow Fever once, and the country that required it has subsequently removed the requirement as they have more control over the disease.

bucketybuck

hmmm wrote: »

There is no human right which allows you to spread a disease to another person because of indifference to vaccines.

Why would vaccinated people be scared of a small minority of unvaccinated people? Doesn't their vaccine work?

ExMachina1000

Remember the pps card controversy

"The Data Protection Commissioner, in a damning report sent to the Department of Social Protection this week, found the retention of documentation on millions of citizens was unlawful, as was the basis for the card to be demanded for access to a range of public services"

This is the 2.0 version . Governments wont plough millions into setting up the systems just to discard them post pandemic. Bits and pieces of data will be added to them and they will become part of an EU database of some description.

Wasnt too long ago that people who said a vaccine passport would be coming were called tin foil hat wearing nutjobs

astrofool

astrofool wrote: »

This is the slippery slope argument, what you need to justify the worry is identify the next step and if it happens, then worry. What is the next step?



It hasn't, it really, really hasn't.

Masks will be around for a while after vaccines, most people don't care about wearing masks, some people really care and are irrational about it, those people will have to wait and be irrational for a while longer.

Wouldn't it be better to not allow for the possibility of that next step by not going down the vaccine passport road at all?

hmmm

hmmm wrote: »

There's no need for vaccine passports once the most dangerous phase has passed (probably Spring of 2022 in my opinion, countries will be cautious over Winter). Thankfully the vaccines look really good.

We don't have vaccine passports for flu, measles etc. I remember needing to get one for Yellow Fever once, and the country that required it has subsequently removed the requirement as they have more control over the disease.

I hope you're right, but once they're in I think it could be very hard to get them out. Especially in Ireland where there's no opposition, be it in the media or in politics.

Irish Aris

hmmm wrote: »

There's no need for vaccine passports once the most dangerous phase has passed (probably Spring of 2022 in my opinion, countries will be cautious over Winter). Thankfully the vaccines look really good.

We don't have vaccine passports for flu, measles etc. I remember needing to get one for Yellow Fever once, and the country that required it has subsequently removed the requirement as they have more control over the disease.

For me this is the key, that vaccine certificates are a temporary measure for the short to short/medium term.
I can't wait to get vaccinated. My family is in another EU country so it will make travelling to see them easier. Plus it gives me protection from getting ill if I get infected and based on some researches it could reduce the risk of transmission.

I do have an objection though in the certificate being required for everyday activities. If businesses require this, though I will be fully vaccinated, I will avoid going them. This could cost me a lot as the social activities I like (concerts, cinema, theatre) would be top of the list in that scenario, but c'est la vie. Hopefully even if implemented, it will be short term too. If not, well, I guess I will be saving some money.