EU Digital/paper! Certs, the Megathread - threadbans in OP

astrofool

Deleted User wrote: »

Wouldn't it be better to not allow for the possibility of that next step by not going down the vaccine passport road at all?

You're saying that introducing a COVID vaccine passport to handle a pandemic is the same as the Chinese social score. What is the single next step that will be taken on the way to enforcing this? If you can't identify that step, there is no slippery slope, and thus worrying about a non-existent threat.

astrofool

astrofool wrote: »

You're saying that introducing a COVID vaccine passport to handle a pandemic is the same as the Chinese social score. What is the single next step that will be taken on the way to enforcing this? If you can't identify that step, there is no slippery slope, and thus worrying about a non-existent threat.

I'm not saying it's the same. I'm saying that there are fears it could potentially morph into such a system, and it could just as potentially not.

antgal23

hmmm wrote: »

There is no human right which allows you to spread a disease to another person because of indifference to vaccines. Our public health laws have always been very clear that the State can take actions (including incarceration) against people who put others at risk.

These passports are going to definitely be used in international travel this year, including within the EU, and again there is no human right to be allowed go on a foreign holiday - you will be laughed out of it by border control if you try to argue it.

I could be wrong but did I not read recently that the EU were looking at a travel passport that includes if the person travelling has one of the following

1. Vaccine recipient
2. Covid negative results
3. Antibody test result

antgal23

antgal23 wrote: »

I could be wrong but did I not read recently that the EU were looking at a travel passport that includes if the person travelling has one of the following

1. Vaccine recipient
2. Covid negative results
3. Antibody test result

That's true, but a domestic vaccine passport is to be rolled out in Ireland. People who do not get vaccinated will be banned from certain activities.

astrofool

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not saying it's the same. I'm saying that there are fears it could potentially morph into such a system, and it could just as potentially not.

Sure, but how, what is the next step? Unless there is a path to get there, then I don't see how you can be worried about COVID Vaccine Passports. A slippery slope argument needs to define the next steps, otherwise it falls apart and can be dismissed.

SnuggyBear

astrofool wrote: »

Sure, but how, what is the next step? Unless there is a path to get there, then I don't see how you can be worried about COVID Vaccine Passports. A slippery slope argument needs to define the next steps, otherwise it falls apart and can be dismissed.

Next step, flu vaccine passport.

Irish Aris

Deleted User wrote: »

That's true, but a domestic vaccine passport is to be rolled out in Ireland. People who do not get vaccinated will be banned from certain activities.

This came from Leo Varadkar, right?
I will believe it when I see it. . .

Russman

Deleted User wrote: »

That's true, but a domestic vaccine passport is to be rolled out in Ireland. People who do not get vaccinated will be banned from certain activities.

Won’t it be similar though in that a negative test and/or antibody test will also be acceptable ?
I agree there are issues and honestly imo it’s not black and white. My own opinion at the moment is that it will likely be a relatively short term measure and I’ve no issue with some people being told “no” you can’t do something. I’d rather see businesses open quicker if they can, as opposed to staying shut til everyone is vaccinated.

astrofool

SnuggyBear wrote: »

Next step, flu vaccine passport.

Grand, so nothing to worry about then as there's no restrictions anywhere in the world for travelling without a flu vaccine (though I still struggle to see how this leads to a social scoring system).

SnuggyBear

astrofool wrote: »

Grand, so nothing to worry about then as there's no restrictions anywhere in the world for travelling without a flu vaccine (though I still struggle to see how this leads to a social scoring system).

We are not talking about travelling we are talking about going to restaurants etc. That alone is heading to a social scoring system.
Not long ago Leo was saying we might have to lockdown in winter for flu.

Russman

Russman wrote: »

Won’t it be similar though in that a negative test and/or antibody test will also be acceptable ?
I agree there are issues and honestly imo it’s not black and white. My own opinion at the moment is that it will likely be a relatively short term measure and I’ve no issue with some people being told “no” you can’t do something. I’d rather see businesses open quicker if they can, as opposed to staying shut til everyone is vaccinated.

Varadkar didn't mention anything about a negative test or an antibody test. He said the vaccinated would be allowed additional freedoms (the idea of the State allowing people freedoms is rather troubling, in my opinion).

We should have an idea from Denmark about how temporary it will be. The Danish Government says the vaccine passport there will be temporary and will be required until such time as all adults have been offered a vaccine. If all adults are vaccinated and it's not got rid of then we'll know that it isn't to be temporary.

antgal23

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's true, but a domestic vaccine passport is to be rolled out in Ireland. People who do not get vaccinated will be banned from certain activities.

Oh

Didn't know that

It would really surprise me if the elected and non elected protagonists of the Covid saga in Dublin do something different to their EU masters in Brussels

astrofool

astrofool wrote: »

Sure, but how, what is the next step? Unless there is a path to get there, then I don't see how you can be worried about COVID Vaccine Passports. A slippery slope argument needs to define the next steps, otherwise it falls apart and can be dismissed.

But it's important to note that it's a vaccine passport, not a covid passport. So that could result in any and all vaccines being mandatory.

I guess the social credit system could be something along the lines of 'don't have the latest vaccine, or booster shot? Then no access to public transport for x number of days.' That's just a hypothesis. I really don't know whether that would ever happen.

SnuggyBear

My opinion is we will have social score system at some stage. When I don't know but its only a matter of time.

Russman

Deleted User wrote: »

Varadkar didn't mention anything about a negative test or an antibody test. He said the vaccinated would be allowed additional freedoms (the idea of the State allowing people freedoms is rather troubling, in my opinion).

We should have an idea from Denmark about how temporary it will be. The Danish Government says the vaccine passport there will be temporary and will be required until such time as all adults have been offered a vaccine. If all adults are vaccinated and it's not got rid of then we'll know that it isn't to be temporary.

That’s fair, but whatever about the State allowing freedoms (I get your point but to be honest I think it’s more his turn of phrase than any sinister overreach), what happens when/if a business or venue decides to only offer its services or allow access to vaccinated people ? I think a certain amount of differing levels of access to stuff are inevitable for a while.

Multipass

hmmm wrote: »

Vaccine numbers are going to ramp up considerably from this month. We've had very little supply the first 3 months of the year, and that was expected.

You call it discrimination, I call it being practical. If pubs, restaurants, gyms are safe to open now for vaccinated people then I'm happy for them to do it and try and make up for lost income. I wouldn't like them to be forced to stay closed until everyone is vaccinated, that makes no sense.

How does it make sense that those most at risk from covid would get to go out to pubs and restaurants, whilst those least at risk are barred. It’s ludicrous, you couldn’t make this **** up!

TomSweeney

bucketybuck wrote: »

I have no doubt that you dont care about basic human rights, what is confusing is what you think a vaccinated person gains from this idea.

A majority will be vaccinated within months, you will already be safe, why is some boondoggle passport important to you? Is this just about superiority over others?

I'll take my vaccine, no doubt, but that doesn't mean we should ignore government overreach just because it wears the cloak of the almighty covid.

The new left are the most authoritarian bunch.
They just love to force things on people.


I bet you a months salary he's the type that also believes people should be prosecuted for misgendering people, or thrown into jail for insulting Islam

ExMachina1000

Russman wrote: »

That’s fair, but whatever about the State allowing freedoms (I get your point but to be honest I think it’s more his turn of phrase than any sinister overreach), what happens when/if a business or venue decides to only offer its services or allow access to vaccinated people ? I think a certain amount of differing levels of access to stuff are inevitable for a while.

Those who decide not to get vaccinated for whatever reason could find themselves in awkward position if they require hospital admission for something unrelated. Hospitals won't want "the unclean " inside their building with potentially vulnerable people (even if those vulnerable people have been vaccinated)

TomSweeney

SnuggyBear wrote: »

My opinion is we will have social score system at some stage. When I don't know but its only a matter of time.

Frightening about that is you could have the money and yet be denied purchasing of items ... terrifying ...

drunkmonkey

Multipass wrote: »

How does it make sense that those most at risk from covid would get to go out to pubs and restaurants, whilst those least at risk are barred. It’s ludicrous, you couldn’t make this **** up!

I'm glad someone copped the madeness of it, you wouldn't have found those people out much in normal times.

Seriously, what extra freedoms can the they give people domestically that's any way enforceable.

Russman

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Those who decide not to get vaccinated for whatever reason could find themselves in awkward position if they require hospital admission for something unrelated. Hospitals won't want "the unclean " inside their building with potentially vulnerable people (even if those vulnerable people have been vaccinated)

I’d imagine it would be like last year with pcr tests prior to admission. My father had a couple of surgeries in the last 8 months and just had to be tested beforehand each time. Can’t see hospitals refusing care to anyone.

Multipass

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'm glad someone copped the madeness of it, you wouldn't have found those people out much in normal times.

Seriously, what extra freedoms can the they give people domestically that's any way enforceable.

If it comes in I hope to god someone produces fakes. I’ll get the vaccine, for herd immunity rather than anything else, but I’ll fight tooth and nail against damn passports.

Russman

Russman wrote: »

That’s fair, but whatever about the State allowing freedoms (I get your point but to be honest I think it’s more his turn of phrase than any sinister overreach), what happens when/if a business or venue decides to only offer its services or allow access to vaccinated people ? I think a certain amount of differing levels of access to stuff are inevitable for a while.

I could see businesses being boycotted. Not so much in Ireland because of the size of the country, and because the opposition in the country is tiny really. But I could definitely see problems developing in the UK. Not so much in the US, however, because of the federal system of government there. Ron DeSantis signed an executive order the other day banning vaccine passports in Florida. Greg Abbott has banned them in Texas as well. A number of other governors have spoken out against them. Neil Oliver put it best when he described the US as a country made of many different countries.

Russman

Deleted User wrote: »

I could see businesses being boycotted. Not so much in Ireland because of the size of the country, and because the opposition in the country is tiny really. But I could definitely see problems developing in the UK. Not so much in the US, however, because of the federal system of government there. Ron DeSantis signed an executive order the other day banning vaccine passports in Florida. Greg Abbott has banned them in Texas as well. A number of other governors have spoken out against them. Neil Clark put it best when he described the US as a country made of many different countries.

It’ll be interesting to see how it plays out alright. Like I say, I’ve no real issue with a short term period of certs being required to do some things until we reach X milestone of vaccine coverage or whatever metric is used.

The US is a diverse place alright, although I’d tend towards the view that if DeSantis and Abbott are doing something, the sensible thing to do is the opposite

SnuggyBear

I'd presume they would use the covid app for this?

Russman

Russman wrote: »

It’ll be interesting to see how it plays out alright. Like I say, I’ve no real issue with a short term period of certs being required to do some things until we reach X milestone of vaccine coverage or whatever metric is used.

The US is a diverse place alright, although I’d tend towards the view that if DeSantis and Abbott are doing something, the sensible thing to do is the opposite

And I could definitely see a backlash in Germany what with the Querdenken movement in the country.

I'm keeping my eye on Denmark to see how temporary their vaccine passport will be.

drunkmonkey

Deleted User wrote: »

I could see businesses being boycotted.

Jinglejangle69

Multipass wrote: »

How does it make sense that those most at risk from covid would get to go out to pubs and restaurants, whilst those least at risk are barred. It’s ludicrous, you couldn’t make this **** up!

And don't forget those who scammed the system and lied to get a vaccine could be out in pubs, restaurants, cinemas, hotels etc etc before us mere mortals.

And there could be 1000s and 1000s of these scammers going by the HSE mess-up.

What a **** show.

Russman

SnuggyBear wrote: »

I'd presume they would use the covid app for this?

That might be way too sensible

giveitholly

Russman wrote: »

That might be way too sensible

I know a good few elderly people who don't have smart phones so not sure how these people will be accommodated if the covid app is used