EU Digital/paper! Certs, the Megathread - threadbans in OP

Living Off The Splash

Deleted User wrote: »

That's true, but a domestic vaccine passport is to be rolled out in Ireland. People who do not get vaccinated will be banned from certain activities.

Leo was saying that those "fully vaccinated" can avail of one of these passports. That would suggest that those people who have received their first jab of the Astrazeneca vaccine will not qualify.. They will have to wait the 4 months until they get their second jab before being able to apply for one.

francogarbanzo

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Not really. Well maybe its coercion in the way that any quid pro quo is coercion. Working in exchange for money or buying a Twix. It's certainly an incentive.

It's ultimately a choice. A choice between being a martyr or just wanting to get back to normal life

The state locking basic access to goods and services behind a digital certificate as means of incentivising people to get a specific medical procedure isn't coercion and is similar to buying a chocolate bar?

is_that_so

Living Off The Splash wrote: »

Leo was saying that those "fully vaccinated" can avail of one of these passports. That would suggest that those people who have received their first jab of the Astrazeneca vaccine will not qualify.. They will have to wait the 4 months until they get their second jab before being able to apply for one.

As always with Leo there's a lot of very vague stuff at work. The primary use of them is to allow travel and for tourism to start up again. The possible in-country uses have not been addressed anywhere yet.

arccosh

francogarbanzo wrote: »

The state locking basic access to goods and services behind a digital certificate as means of incentivising people to get a specific medical procedure isn't coercion and is similar to buying a chocolate bar?

get of your horse...

basic goods and services won't be locked behind a digital cert, stop trying to over exaggerate..

is_that_so

arccosh wrote: »

get of your horse...

basic goods and services won't be locked behind a digital cert, stop trying to over exaggerate..

There's a complete vacuum here into which lots of ideas have been lobbed. Leo wouldn't but Donnelly...

francogarbanzo

arccosh wrote: »

get of your horse...

basic goods and services won't be locked behind a digital cert, stop trying to over exaggerate..

OK. We'll re-address this in a couple months. If you're right I'll apologise to you.

What is the digital cert supposed to do in your mind? If it doesn't prevent access to places for unvaccinated people, what's its purpose?

El_Duderino 09

francogarbanzo wrote: »

The state locking basic access to goods and services behind a digital certificate as means of incentivising people to get a specific medical procedure isn't coercion and is similar to buying a chocolate bar?

What "basic" or essentials services will require a vaccine passport?

francogarbanzo

arccosh wrote: »

To let Bill Gates know when you had your last **** obviously

You gotta stop that man. Keep up. This was considered a conspiracy theory last year. This year it's actually happening. Update your firmware - the new belief is that "vaccine passports are going to happen and it's a good thing!"

francogarbanzo

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

What "basic" or essentials services will require a vaccine passport?

I didn't say essential services. I did say "basic" services. And I don't know, but here's what's being said in the Irish Times:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/vaccine-certificate-q-a-what-is-the-status-of-government-plans-1.4530324

"Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Employment Leo Varadkar suggested last week that vaccine certification, combined with rapid antigen testing, “could open the way to resuming hospitality, the arts and live events safely” while saying “it may be months away”. He raised the prospect of a “digital green certificate” or “vaccine pass” again in a Facebook video at the weekend saying it is being developed as a way to provide “more freedoms for those who have been vaccinated”. In the video he also noted that the Government is “keeping a close eye” on Israel which has almost fully reopened although it has “different rules for people who are vaccinated and those who aren’t.”

"More than half of Israel’s population has been vaccinated. It operates a “Green Pass” system for people to access restaurants, cinemas and gyms as well as sports and cultural events. A Green Pass lasts for six months and can be issued to someone who is fully vaccinated for Covid-19 or who has recovered from having the virus."

Does it sound to you that people without the vaccine passport will have access to the same goods and services as people with it? Doesn't sound like it to me. Again, it seems like a measure to coerce as many people as possible into getting the vaccine.

arccosh

francogarbanzo wrote: »

You gotta stop that man. Keep up. This was considered a conspiracy theory last year. This year it's actually happening. Update your firmware - the new belief is that "vaccine passports are going to happen and it's a good thing!"

I never said it was a good thing...

I told you to stop exaggerating that it will stop you getting basic goods and services

I mean, I can quote the post if you're incapable of scrolling a few posts up.

El_Duderino 09

francogarbanzo wrote: »

I didn't say essential services. I did say "basic" services. And I don't know, but here's what's being said in the Irish Times:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/vaccine-certificate-q-a-what-is-the-status-of-government-plans-1.4530324

"Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Employment Leo Varadkar suggested last week that vaccine certification, combined with rapid antigen testing, “could open the way to resuming hospitality, the arts and live events safely” while saying “it may be months away”. He raised the prospect of a “digital green certificate” or “vaccine pass” again in a Facebook video at the weekend saying it is being developed as a way to provide “more freedoms for those who have been vaccinated”. In the video he also noted that the Government is “keeping a close eye” on Israel which has almost fully reopened although it has “different rules for people who are vaccinated and those who aren’t.”

"More than half of Israel’s population has been vaccinated. It operates a “Green Pass” system for people to access restaurants, cinemas and gyms as well as sports and cultural events. A Green Pass lasts for six months and can be issued to someone who is fully vaccinated for Covid-19 or who has recovered from having the virus."

Does it sound to you that people without the vaccine passport will have access to the same goods and services as people with it? Doesn't sound like it to me. Again, it seems like a measure to coerce as many people as possible into getting the vaccine.

So, since there's nothing about "basic" goods and services in the evidence you're using, can i assume you made up the point about basic goods and services?

francogarbanzo

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So, since there's nothing about "basic" goods and services in the evidence you're using, can i assume you made up the point about basic goods and services?

Hospitality, restaurants, cinemas, live everts, gyms as well as sports and cultural events are all basic services.

josip

AdamD wrote: »

By the time the vast majority of concert goers have been received 2 doses of a vaccine, Ireland will have reached herd immunity, so what exactly would this passport be achieving at that point?

There's a risk that because of Facebook, etc we might never get the vast majority of people vaccinated.
So we need some policy/incentive to counter that negative influence.

El_Duderino 09

francogarbanzo wrote: »

Hospitality, restaurants, cinemas, live everts, gyms as well as sports and cultural events are all basic services.

They're basics? And here was me thinking they were discretionary and basics would be thins like food and medical services. Holidays are surely basics too? And maybe having a nice car is a basic (not a crappy car, that would only be an essential, but a decent 5 seater saloon). What would not be a "basic" in your view?

But the reality is that we're all doing without the "basics" at the moment and the vaccine is the way to get back to normal. Some people want to play the martyr and act like they're being persecuted because they choose not to get vaccinated and choose not to go to those cultural events, then that will be their choice.

antgal23

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

They're basics? And here was me thinking they were discretionary and basics would be thins like food and medical services. Holidays are surely basics too? And maybe having a nice car is a basic (not a crappy car, that would only be an essential, but a decent 5 seater saloon). What would not be a "basic" in your view?

But the reality is that we're all doing without the "basics" at the moment and the vaccine is the way to get back to normal. Some people want to play the martyr and act like they're being persecuted because they choose not to get vaccinated and choose not to go to those cultural events, then that will be their choice.

I think it's more nuanced than that.

If I want to go to the cinema on Friday surely a negative test result on Friday would be enough.

francogarbanzo

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

They're basics? And here was me thinking they were discretionary and basics would be thins like food and medical services. Holidays are surely basics too? And maybe having a nice car is a basic (not a crappy car, that would only be an essential, but a decent 5 seater saloon). What would not be a "basic" in your view?

But the reality is that we're all doing without the "basics" at the moment and the vaccine is the way to get back to normal. Some people want to play the martyr and act like they're being persecuted because they choose not to get vaccinated and choose not to go to those cultural events, then that will be their choice.

Yes, you got it right. Those are things that, up until one year ago, would have been basics. The fact that you don't think that general access to goods and services isn't "basic" makes me think you've been completely demoralised by these restrictions. Holidays are basics. Restaurants are basics. Pubs are basics. Etc.

You're presenting a false dilemma. Vaccine passport or no freedom for anybody. There are other options. Like vaccinate as many people as possible and start easing restrictions like was always the plan.

antgal23

josip wrote: »

There's a risk that because of Facebook, etc we might never get the vast majority of people vaccinated.
So we need some policy/incentive to counter that negative influence.

Again, ten people could have different reasons not to get vaccinated. Government policy should consider this.

arccosh

francogarbanzo wrote: »

Hospitality, restaurants, cinemas, live everts, gyms as well as sports and cultural events are all basic services.

it's nice that they're all basic to you...

back to your argument, all have mentioned in lieu of vaccine evidence, they will allow people with negative tests to attend with proper track along with track and trace methods in place...

The government have also mentioned this being acceptable when they get the high risk categories fully vaccinated

AdamD

It costs 100 euro to get a test, nobody's getting a test to go to the cinema.

antgal23

AdamD wrote: »

It costs 100 euro to get a test, nobody's getting a test to go to the cinema.

Pretty sure the walk in test centers are free

El_Duderino 09

antgal23 wrote: »

I think it's more nuanced than that.

If I want to go to the cinema on Friday surely a negative test result on Friday would be enough.

It might. But it's also an incentive to encourage people to get the vaccine. It's not a normal situation, it's about getting over a global pandemic.

Ashbourne hoop

antgal23 wrote: »

Pretty sure the walk in test centers are free

They are at the moment, but it's for a short term in areas with high numbers.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It might. But it's also an incentive to encourage people to get the vaccine. It's not a normal situation, it's about getting over a global pandemic.

Do you not think it might have the opposite effect? That it might be a disincentive for people who don't like the idea of being coerced into taking a vaccine?

El_Duderino 09

francogarbanzo wrote: »

Yes, you got it right. Those are things that, up until one year ago, would have been basics. The fact that you don't think that general access to goods and services isn't "basic" makes me think you've been completely demoralised by these restrictions. Holidays are basics. Restaurants are basics. Pubs are basics. Etc.

You're presenting a false dilemma. Vaccine passport or no freedom for anybody. There are other options. Like vaccinate as many people as possible and start easing restrictions like was always the plan.

There are more options than that. We could vaccinate some people, lockdown each winter when the virus surges, and ease restrictions each summer when it recedes. And the more people who get vaccinated, the less likely we will be to lockdown or even need restrictions.

The vaccine passport is about trying to vaccinate as many people as possible by encouraging the "vaccine hesitant" to get the finger out. The "vaccine martyrs" will choose to stay behind, but that's their choice.

Some people just like to be different. It probably makes them feel brave or interesting. It's interesting to note that apparently there were people who opposed the blackouts in cities in England during the wars (blackouts were needed to not let the bombers see where the towns and cities were or locate their targets). It's amazing to think that there were people who made such a choice and in the future they'll look back with similar surprise that there were people who refused to get the Covid vaccine.

is_that_so

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It might. But it's also an incentive to encourage people to get the vaccine. It's not a normal situation, it's about getting over a global pandemic.

It's hard to incentivize people when a first shot at the time of the implementation of such passports is of no benefit for at least two months. It also assumes that people will be in position to avail of vaccines.

El_Duderino 09

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Do you not think it might have the opposite effect? That it might be a disincentive for people who don't like the idea of being coerced into taking a vaccine?

It might do that for some people, but can you imagine the kind of person we're talking about? Someone who would actively delay the nation getting back to normal after the pandemic to make a point about government interference and half baked facebook "research" about vaccines. They are not very common, thankfully.

Much more likely that people would just get the finger out and get the vaccine or make sure they don't miss their appointment. It's more likely to have an impact on the lazy and the slightly dopey than the vaccine martyr

El_Duderino 09

is_that_so wrote: »

It's hard to incentivize people when a first shot at the time of the implementation of such passports is of no benefit for at least two months. It also assumes that people will be in position to avail of vaccines.

If they're talking about it now then they wont be implemented for a few months yet. This is most likely a way to handle next winter than really being about this summer.

is_that_so

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If they're talking about it now then they wont be implemented for a few months yet. This is most likely a way to handle next winter than really being about this summer.

That really depends on the continued effect of COVID on society. If we have 5000 positives a day but empty hospitals, that's a cold.

ginoginelli

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

There are more options than that. We could vaccinate some people, lockdown each winter when the virus surges, and ease restrictions each summer when it recedes. And the more people who get vaccinated, the less likely we will be to lockdown or even need restrictions.

The vaccine passport is about trying to vaccinate as many people as possible by encouraging the "vaccine hesitant" to get the finger out. The "vaccine martyrs" will choose to stay behind, but that's their choice.

Some people just like to be different. It probably makes them feel brave or interesting. It's interesting to note that apparently there were people who opposed the blackouts in cities in England during the wars (blackouts were needed to not let the bombers see where the towns and cities were or locate their targets). It's amazing to think that there were people who made such a choice and in the future they'll look back with similar surprise that there were people who refused to get the Covid vaccine.

Post pretty much nails it.

ginoginelli

One thing these anti vax loons have in common is that they are all inherently selfish. If they find they cant travel or cant go to a concert without a vaccine and a passport, and it is affecting them negatively not having one, they will change their minds quick enough.