EU Digital/paper! Certs, the Megathread - threadbans in OP

is_that_so

is_that_so wrote: »

That really depends on the continued effect of COVID on society. If we have 5000 positives a day but empty hospitals, that's a cold.

My fear is that those 5000 positives will be used an excuse for restrictions and/or lockdowns.

francogarbanzo

ginoginelli wrote: »

One thing these anti vax loons have in common is that they are all inherently selfish. If they find they cant travel or cant go to a concert without a vaccine and a passport, and it is affecting them negatively not having one, they will change their minds quick enough.

The mating call of the authoritarian.

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My fear is that those 5000 positives will be used an excuse for restrictions and/or lockdowns.

You say this in a very large percentage of your posts. What's to "fear"?

speckle

A passport is riduclous when...Gps cant even still order antibody tests..why should the thousands of people who because of a collapse in the contact tracing system never got a pcr test around Christmas or even at the beginning in spring 2020 have to pay for one now ..even though they may have been clinicaly diagnosised.

And then there is potential Tcell immunity... which needs to be checked aswell...otherwise we are giving unnessary medical treatment to those with both of the above.

This is an unfair system on the above... aswell as those who are not well off to afford them...and there are many, more people who have had impacted finances over the last year.

Herd immunity equals those who have had a natural covid infection plus those with an artificialy induced one via injection..infact those with a natural infection got the whole virus while the others only the spike protein and in that case one who is high risk would want them out (even more if that works better than those with a vax) and about too... more people to shield around you in the community the better... have ye not seen the public health 101 diagrams on how herd immunity works?

And it would be unfair ...that those in the higher risk groups ...who the younger healthier people put their lives on hold for over a year to protect get preferential treatment now. Otherwise we are not all in this together. Either vaccines work or people have been sold 'a pig in a poke'... or at least half a ham sandwhich...Bless the pigs...I think thats the colluqial phrase?

And before you point the finger I am in a higher risk group but believe this now unscientific lockdown has gone on too long...once most of over 70s and younger higher risk people who choose to take the vaccine are done..restrictions levels need to fall...and not by waving a piece of paper etc..

There will always be people turning 70 or getting diagnoised with high risk illnesss...and a level of mortality/morbidity needs to be accepted like other diseases.

I want a plan from government like ...when
60% of high risk/original list done open X to all
when 65% of high risk.........to all open...X to all
when 70%...
when 75%....
when 80%...
And due to the R naught number after that the rest opens with public health rules for extremely high risk eg places indoor large attended squashed events for a while longer..but even there tech is coming along...like spit on paper tests..proper ventillation systems. etc

We also need to re check those with early infections how their immunity is holding up.

We need to be at level 3/2 for the whole summer at least to see how things are working out before next winter and use that time wisely to fix a broken health service.. give people a break outside in the sun and fresh air.. get people back working and install practical long term measures to live.

If people are bullied into passports that will break the trust in not just vaccinations but possibly their faith in science/medical system/government.

Remember we also have people grown up in this country now ...who as children where experimented on without their knowledge with vaccination or who have just won court cases re adverse reactions to the swine flu vaccination..if their experiences as well as all the good ones dont count

We are NOT in this all together.. (but were we ever?)

NB..Always choose to inform yourself on the benefits and risks of any medical treatment shorterm and longer..have a conversation with your doctor/consultant/medical team/advocacy group but makes sure they are up to date on their own knowledge as well

paw patrol

ginoginelli wrote: »

One thing these anti vax loons have in common is that they are all inherently selfish. If they find they cant travel or cant go to a concert without a vaccine and a passport, and it is affecting them negatively not having one, they will change their minds quick enough.

It's good to see posts like this cos it clearly demonstrates why authoritarianism when it arrives always has a bedrock of support.

Your attitude has little basis in science. It's not science nor health driving your view just a perverse attitude demanding punishment for people who think differently or aren't scared of that 99.9% survival rate.

_Kaiser_

ginoginelli wrote: »

One thing these anti vax loons have in common is that they are all inherently selfish. If they find they cant travel or cant go to a concert without a vaccine and a passport, and it is affecting them negatively not having one, they will change their minds quick enough.

You don't see anything wrong with that? Let's make having ID papers on your person mandatory at all times while we're at it sure.

CV-19 is not dangerous to 98% of the population in this country, as evidenced by the numbers over the last 12 months. Why do you want those people to present "their papers" for something that doesn't affect them.

Maybe we should ask those who are ACTUALLY at a potential risk to present evidence that they've been vaccinated, or maybe a disclaimer that they accept those risks by going into the crowded venue?

Or.. here's a radical idea... we could just expect people to take responsibility for their own choices and safety like we've done all along until this situation arose.

drunkmonkey

AdamD wrote: »

It costs 100 euro to get a test, nobody's getting a test to go to the cinema.

It's €200 for 20 antigen tests, use them at work. The HSE need to loosen their hold on testing, that pub who tested everyone before letting people in and was closed down was way ahead of the curve.
PCR can give you a positive from god knows when at least with the antigen your picking up an active infection which is all that really matters.

iguana

speckle wrote: »

A passport is riduclous when...Gps cant even still order antibody tests..why should the thousands of people who because of a collapse in the contact tracing system never got a pcr test around Christmas or even at the beginning in spring 2020 have to pay for one now ..even though they may have been clinicaly diagnosised.

I got bumped off the test list in March 2020. I was part of a cluster of people who can trace the our illnesses back to someone who came back from north Italy in early March but never got tested, so none of us could when they cleared the list of non-contacts. I had what was likely "long Covid" and suffered breathing problems and chest pains for months. I still have some lingering issues. It's very unlikely I didn't have Covid. It's very likely I have a degree of immunity. But why exactly wouldn't I get a vaccine when my time comes? I don't know for an absolute fact that I had Covid and even if I did, I wouldn't know what kind of immunity I'd still have if any. So I'll get my vaccine as soon as I'm eligible because that's the best, smartest, safest thing to do.

iguana

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Or.. here's a radical idea... we could just expect people to take responsibility for their own choices and safety like we've done all along until this situation arose.

Viruses don't work like that. And pre-Covid we were only able to do that because of successful mass vaccination programmes. Before that, public health restrictions did exist. Vaccinations free us from those restrictions, whereas the people who refuse to accept that keep us trapped.

iguana

iguana wrote: »

Viruses don't work like that. And pre-Covid we were only able to do that because of successful mass vaccination programmes. Before that, public health restrictions did exist. Vaccinations free us from those restrictions, whereas the people who refuse to accept that keep us trapped.

Are you sure about that? Deaths and case numbers are on the floor in the UK and Dr Mary Ramsay of Public Health England is talking about masks and social distancing sticking around for years: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56475807

"Dr Ramsay said restrictions such as face coverings in crowded places and social distancing had become accepted by many and still allowed the economy to function.

She said "people have got used to those lower-level restrictions now, and people can live with them, and the economy can still go on with those less severe restrictions in place".

"So I think certainly for a few years, at least until other parts of the world are as well vaccinated as we are, and the numbers have come down everywhere, that is when we may be able to go very gradually back to a more normal situation," she added."

And even after a few years it's only 'may be able to' and 'a more normal' as opposed to 'normal'. People will point to 'could', but Public Health England is involved in the decisions made in the UK, so Dr Ramsay's opinion, or prediction, to be more precise, carries weight.

And Johnson is reportedly under pressure by Chris Whitty and Patrick Vallance to keep social distancing in place for another year: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9440699/Boris-Johnson-pressure-experts-social-distancing.html

"Professor Chris Whitty and Sir Patrick Vallance are putting pressure on Boris Johnson to keep social distancing rules in place for another year, it was claimed today.

The Chief Medical Officer and the Chief Scientific Adviser are said to be in active discussions with the Prime Minister over whether restrictions should be kept for the long term."

El_Duderino 09

is_that_so wrote: »

That really depends on the continued effect of COVID on society. If we have 5000 positives a day but empty hospitals, that's a cold.

Of course. And if it threatens the health service again then it’s a major threat to society and the economy and the nation. Probably best to plan for more than the ideal scenario.

_Kaiser_

iguana wrote: »

Viruses don't work like that. And pre-Covid we were only able to do that because of successful mass vaccination programmes. Before that, public health restrictions did exist. Vaccinations free us from those restrictions, whereas the people who refuse to accept that keep us trapped.

I've never had a flu vaccine and yet I've never had a problem doing whatever I wanted/needed to in the past.

The reality here is that CV-19 is not dangerous to over 98% of the population and there's no reason those should continue to be restricted or now asked to prove something that doesn't affect them.

Our efforts (and not unlimited manpower and money) should be directed at the <2% that are actually at a potential risk, bearing in mind that even then the chance of serious illness or death is far from certain.

We cannot continue to make policy decisions that sacrifice the needs of the overwhelming majority, and the freedoms of all, on the basis that a very very small percentage of people MIGHT get sick or die.

crossmolinalad

francogarbanzo wrote: »

I didn't say essential services. I did say "basic" services. And I don't know, but here's what's being said in the Irish Times:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/vaccine-certificate-q-a-what-is-the-status-of-government-plans-1.4530324

"Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Employment Leo Varadkar suggested last week that vaccine certification, combined with rapid antigen testing, “could open the way to resuming hospitality, the arts and live events safely” while saying “it may be months away”. He raised the prospect of a “digital green certificate” or “vaccine pass” again in a Facebook video at the weekend saying it is being developed as a way to provide “more freedoms for those who have been vaccinated”. In the video he also noted that the Government is “keeping a close eye” on Israel which has almost fully reopened although it has “different rules for people who are vaccinated and those who aren’t.”

"More than half of Israel’s population has been vaccinated. It operates a “Green Pass” system for people to access restaurants, cinemas and gyms as well as sports and cultural events. A Green Pass lasts for six months and can be issued to someone who is fully vaccinated for Covid-19 or who has recovered from having the virus."

Does it sound to you that people without the vaccine passport will have access to the same goods and services as people with it? Doesn't sound like it to me. Again, it seems like a measure to coerce as many people as possible into getting the vaccine.

And what after those 6 months??
Have to get new vaccine for a new green pass???

SnuggyBear

crossmolinalad wrote: »

And what after those 6 months??
Have to get new vaccine for a new green pass???

Ye.

Multipass

crossmolinalad wrote: »

And what after those 6 months??
Have to get new vaccine for a new green pass???

Or try to catch covid again :pac:

micosoft

A lot of folk on this thread seem to be thinking of Covid and the passport as being a one time thing. With strong possibility of an annual Covid variant and annual vaccination or regional vaccinations we are likely going to need a permanent vaccination cert for travel for the next decade at least. TBH I have to use the Yellow Fever Vaccine document frequently enough that I think it's very sensible.

ginoginelli

paw patrol wrote: »

It's good to see posts like this cos it clearly demonstrates why authoritarianism when it arrives always has a bedrock of support.

Your attitude has little basis in science. It's not science nor health driving your view just a perverse attitude demanding punishment for people who think differently or aren't scared of that 99.9% survival rate.

It's more of an observance on basic social science and human behaviour.

These anti vax simpletons aren't crazy about giving the goverment their PPS numbers for their dole, but guess what? They do it anyway! Why? Becasue they need the money.

There is a hierarchy of needs as set out in 'Maslows theory of motivation - 'that our actions are motivated in order to achieve certain needs'. The need to participate in certain activities; Tomo's trip to lanzo. Theresa's trip to the nail salon, will trump any of their whackjob, preconceived notions, on an infringement of their civil liberties.

99.9 % survival rate? Eh? Something tell me your "science" comes from certain Facebook groups :rolleyes:

francogarbanzo

micosoft wrote: »

A lot of folk on this thread seem to be thinking of Covid and the passport as being a one time thing. With strong possibility of an annual Covid variant and annual vaccination or regional vaccinations we are likely going to need a permanent vaccination cert for travel for the next decade at least. TBH I have to use the Yellow Fever Vaccine document frequently enough that I think it's very sensible.

What about having one to enter your bank?

francogarbanzo

ginoginelli wrote: »

It's more of an observance on basic social science and human behaviour.

These anti vax simpletons aren't crazy about giving the goverment their PPS numbers for their dole, but guess what? They do it anyway! Why? Becasue they need the money.

There is a hierarchy of needs as set out in 'Maslows theory of motivation - 'that our actions are motivated in order to achieve certain needs'. The need to participate in certain activities; Tomo's trip to lanzo. Theresa's trip to the nail salon, will trump any of their whackjob, preconceived notions, on an infringement of their civil liberties.

99.9 % survival rate? Eh? Something tell me your "science" comes from certain Facebook groups :rolleyes:

Authoritarian and classist. Nice combo.

paw patrol

ginoginelli wrote: »

It's more of an observance on basic social science and human behaviour.

These anti vax simpletons aren't crazy about giving the goverment their PPS numbers for their dole, but guess what? They do it anyway! Why? Becasue they need the money.

some generalisations there. PPS and vaccine passports for allowed/not allowing access in society aren't remotely the same thing, but you knew that. You need a better argument.

Also how do you know who is anti vax and their tax paying status? really how?
Do you have a list? Not surprising if you did, considering your previous comment. But let us know.

ginoginelli wrote: »

There is a hierarchy of needs as set out in 'Maslows theory of motivation - 'that our actions are motivated in order to achieve certain needs'. The need to participate in certain activities; Tomo's trip to lanzo. Theresa's trip to the nail salon, will trump any of their whackjob, preconceived notions, on an infringement of their civil liberties.

maslows needs and his the magic pyramid - I remember it from my project management exam (PMP)
My Physiological and Safety needs come before my trip to Ibiza.

Not sticking brand new , non-long term tested syrup that fiddles with my immune system into my arm probably ranks near the top need. Just saying....
If I'm not bothered by an illness why would I risk the side effects ? That's the magic question....

ginoginelli wrote: »

99.9 % survival rate? Eh? Something tell me your "science" comes from certain Facebook groups :rolleyes:

ok. "something tells me" then proceeds to mock my science. bravo!

iguana

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I've never had a flu vaccine and yet I've never had a problem doing whatever I wanted/needed to in the past.

The reality here is that CV-19 is not dangerous to over 98% of the population and there's no reason those should continue to be restricted or now asked to prove something that doesn't affect them.

I'm not sure why I'm bothering as you have obviously chosen to avoid understanding the basics my 8 year old understands for the last year. Covid is not the flu, comparing it to the flu in this way is nonsensical and does not make any point that you think it does. The danger of Covid is that it overwhelms our health systems. All health systems, even ones that aren't as shambolic as ours. That endangers all of us. Anyone who refuses to understand those two really, really simple to understand things, shouldn't really be trusted to get on with anything.

paw patrol

just in anticipation for questions on the above.

I believe in consent - I would have thought that was a good thing but apparently it is only when it suits the agenda.
I fully support taking any vaccine if you wish.

demanding that people who say "no" are ostracized is abhorrent and amounts to coercion and that is mandatory vaccine territory.

bUt NoBoDy Is FoRcInG yOu :rolleyes:

Parachutes

So called ‘Vaccine Passports’ are a slippery slope. Not only are you potentially creating a caste system in society but in combination with smartphones, facial recognition etc there’s a massive privacy concern. Essentially, if you don’t have a smartphone you ain’t participating in society. Whatever your thoughts on vaccines and vaccine hesitancy I don’t think this is the answer. There’s hardly anyone championing civil liberties these days but this is a step too far.

speckle

iguana wrote: »

I got bumped off the test list in March 2020. I was part of a cluster of people who can trace the our illnesses back to someone who came back from north Italy in early March but never got tested, so none of us could when they cleared the list of non-contacts. I had what was likely "long Covid" and suffered breathing problems and chest pains for months. I still have some lingering issues. It's very unlikely I didn't have Covid. It's very likely I have a degree of immunity. But why exactly wouldn't I get a vaccine when my time comes? I don't know for an absolute fact that I had Covid and even if I did, I wouldn't know what kind of immunity I'd still have if any. So I'll get my vaccine as soon as I'm eligible because that's the best, smartest, safest thing to do.

Smartest and safest would be looking at the science coming out at the moment( it's ever evolving) re vacccines and those who have already had covid ...including hospital doctors/consultants who are also asking ....at the very least having two injections would be possibly overkill.. check the vaccine thread for the discussion... which is why immunity tests are needed. And while you are at check re ADE and vaccines...(more data needed re covid ones) and then look at the stats on people who have long covid and receive a vaccine ...some point to it helping.. others no change but importantly a small minority making things worse..

You choose what you want as long as you inform yourself and talk to your gp etc ...your status of being high risk or not(which is you personal private data) would come into play...versus others in different situations...maybe if possible start with getting your antibody level checked?

We dont normally vaccinate people who are immune for other diseases...your immunity and how it is holding up or not ...gets tested first.

Things are not always black and white for some people as you seem to have decided already. I wish all the best whether or not you personally decide to get vaccinated.

People seem to forget that in the main Public health decisions are about the masses not your health individualy.. one needs to balance looking out for yourself with whatever are public health decisions.

astrofool

Parachutes wrote: »

So called ‘Vaccine Passports’ are a slippery slope. Not only are you potentially creating a caste system in society but in combination with smartphones, facial recognition etc there’s a massive privacy concern. Essentially, if you don’t have a smartphone you ain’t participating in society. Whatever your thoughts on vaccines and vaccine hesitancy I don’t think this is the answer. There’s hardly anyone championing civil liberties these days but this is a step too far.

The slippery slope argument only works if you can define the next steps, what is your next step on this slope so we know that it actually is slippery (other people think flu vaccine certs will be next).

It's not a case of:
COVID Vaccine Certificate
?????
Full blown 1984 dystopia

Parachutes

astrofool wrote: »

The slippery slope argument only works if you can define the next steps, what is your next step on this slope so we know that it actually is slippery (other people think flu vaccine certs will be next).

It's not a case of:
COVID Vaccine Certificate
?????
Full blown 1984 dystopia

It’s been happening for years already never mind the pandemic (remember Snowden?)

We all know google, apple etc have loads of data on us already. We’re already half way done the slope as it is.

paw patrol

astrofool wrote: »

The slippery slope argument only works if you can define the next steps, what is your next step on this slope so we know that it actually is slippery (other people think flu vaccine certs will be next).

It's not a case of:
COVID Vaccine Certificate
?????
Full blown 1984 dystopia

you make a valid point but its' naïve to think that once its introduced it won't be used for "other" stuff.
Well we don't know , I'd rather nip it in the bud than realise I'm goosed when it's too late.

astrofool

paw patrol wrote: »

you make a valid point but its' naïve to think that once its introduced it won't be used for "other" stuff.
Well we don't know , I'd rather nip it in the bud than realise I'm goosed when it's too late.

There is already certificates used for lots of things, driving license, qualifications to do a job, welfare card, actual passports, age cards. The vaccine cert will be no less or more "dangerous" than any of those things, nipping a health measure in the bud during a pandemic because it might cause 1984 is pretty dumb.

trixi001

A vaccine passport for an experimental vaccine is completely wrong - all the vaccines have currently only been regulated for emergency use and do not have full approval - no way should anyone be forced to participate is what is essentially a giant vaccine travel...

Even if they were fully approved - why do we need a vaccine passport for normal domestic life..it is wrong to suggest that someone who chooses to get a vaccine can go to a restaurant and someone who chooses not to get a vaccine can't..it is a very dangerous precedent to set...will it be the same for flu injections every year..

Most people in Ireland now seem to be advocates for abortion as they state - its her body her choice, but why would this not apply for vaccines - my body, my choice?

I have a roughly 1 in 100,000 of dying from Covid (Good calculator here - https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/news/coronavirus-and-your-health/how-to-find-out-your-risk-when-it-comes-to-coronavirus). why should i be essentially forced to take a vaccine which comes with its own risks to prevent an illness which is not particularly dangerous?

PS - I am not saying i won't get it, just why should i be forced to get it?

Going to down a route of requiring vaccines to access normal functions of society, means limiting access to society to those who can't be vaccinated for whatever reason - pregnancy, allergic reactions, medical conditions etc, unless they consent to sharing this information - We should not consent to the potential to have to reveal any element of private medical business to a bouncer etc or to work colleagues who are having christmas dinner, that unvaccinated can't attend etc..what about people who don't carry a smartphone, or who's phone is lost or broken or the battery dies on they way to an event..

_Kaiser_

iguana wrote: »

I'm not sure why I'm bothering as you have obviously chosen to avoid understanding the basics my 8 year old understands for the last year. Covid is not the flu, comparing it to the flu in this way is nonsensical and does not make any point that you think it does. The danger of Covid is that it overwhelms our health systems. All health systems, even ones that aren't as shambolic as ours. That endangers all of us. Anyone who refuses to understand those two really, really simple to understand things, shouldn't really be trusted to get on with anything.

Juvenile insults aside....

What you're saying then is that all we're doing at this point is protecting the waste and mismanagement of the HSE (something I actually completely agree with you about).

It has nothing to do with health or proper risk assessments then. We are throwing away billions, and putting people out of work and into financial difficulty, causing untold stress and mental health issues, to protect incompetence.

Grand, and again completely agree - however I'd suggest there's probably a better way to deal with that than wrecking the country in the process?