Help a roadie choose a full susser...

Lumen

...because I'm so confused.

I currently have a lovely light Felt hardtail. It goes uphill like stink but descending is the wrong kind of exciting, mostly due to the geometry.

I've given up on the idea that riding a hardtail is going to impart magical skills. I'm always going to be talentless.

My usage is about one third GAP, one third Ballinastoe and the rest mucking around in the local woods at very low speed on stuff that throws me over the bars of the Felt.

I want the right amount of suspension, not so much as to completely obliterate the terrain, but enough to get me down at reasonable speed with enough feedback to be fun, and then rip up the next climb.

Generally I find MTBs to feel very short, as I'm used to stretching out on the road bikes.

Is there one bike that will do all this for less than €3k?

I think I should probably get a "trail bike", because I feel like I'll never have the skills or bravery to do an enduro justice, and an XC would be too limited. Does that make sense? Or are trail bikes bad at everything?

The other factor is that I'm more comfortable stretched out, from all the road riding, and at 183cm with a long back and short legs I'm usually between M and L. Should I size up or down?

Bikes I've considered, from reading reviews

Canyon Neuron AL 7, €2300 but not shipping until June/July.

Radon Slide Trail 8, €2,549 but not available until June-ish.

Skeen Trail CF 9.0, €2600 but not shipping until May.

YT Izzo Comp, €3k but sold out.

The Nukeproof Reactor looks quite appealing but is out of my €3k budget.

I would buy from a shop but my local LBS have no stock of anything and their advice was basically "find something online and buy it".

Help!

Lumen

I've found a couple of Treks in stock locally, over and under budget.

2021 Trek Top Fuel 8, medium, €3300.
2021 Trek Fuel EX 5, large, €2400.

The Top Fuel is the racy one, right?

As you can see I'm a bit lost.

Plastik

Also look at the 2021 Giant Trance X. When sizing up you need to check out the Geo charts and see if they publish a minimum saddle height that the bike can run with whatever dropper post it gets shipped with. On the Canyon Neuron the min seat height on the L is 73.3cm, so if you have short legs and need to run a height shorter than that you'd have to go with the M frame that'll take between 69.8-82.8cm. But at your height I would be buying a L all day long. I couldn't see how you'd fit on a M. The reach would be way too short. I'm also 183 and sized up to an XL Trance X. But I'm long of leg.

The problem with mtb is there is absolutely no accepted geometry standard or theory. Every company has their own take. Some companies would recommend someone of my height on a bike with 480mm reach and others would put me on one of their frames with 510mm reach.

For the type of riding you're doing anything 130-160 travel with 65/66 head angle would be perfect.

Lumen

OK, thanks Plastik. That all makes sense.

A friend is selling his well cared for Vitus Escarpe VRX which I've tried before and fits, and that worked out better value than anything that I could buy new.

It's a bit slacker than I would like but I guess I can use my hardtail on the faster trails at Ballinastoe.

Lumen

I guess I could sell my hardtail and get an XC bike. Then I'll be able to tackle anything!

fatbhoy

I'd recommend getting an Enduro bike. Slack head angle, steep seat-tube angle, longish front and rear travel.

Propain (German direct sales manufacturer) offer great value and configurability.

YT also offer great value (another German (?) direct manufacturer).

Edit: and get rid of those road bikes, install TrailForks and suss out new trails, and become a proper biker. :pac:

Plastik

Faced with that option recently I went with a trail bike. Despite doing a few enduros I went with something more suitable to the other 90% of what I'd be doing off-road and I'll just accept the limitations of that at enduros. It's not like I'm doing them for anything other than a bit of fun. Participation racing. I don't think a big enduro bike would be my first choice anyway for just low speed mucking around at a local spot or spending time at Ballinastoe doing the Coillte loop.

rizzodun

Absolutely get a trail bike, from what you mentioned above an enduro would be surplus to your needs and you'll not enjoy the climbing as much.

Of those, I'd recommend the Canyon Neuron, it's 140mm front / 130mm rear and actually a bit more XC based than a Trek Fuel EX (also 140mm / 130mm) for example.

I own a Fuel EX and ridden a Neuron CF 8 this week (following a purchase by a club mate), I prefer the Fuel for that I ride but it really is 100% natural enduro based trails, a capable big trail bike will run just about anything in Ireland that's on the enduro scene.

However, the Neuron is very snappy, quick to get up to speed and capable of running the same trails, just the rear get's overwhelmed slightly quicker and needs a wider bar (Fuel runs 800mm Riser bar vs Canyon 780mm flat on a size large)

The Canyon Neuron CF8 is €2799 and shipping at end of March if you order now, shipping to delivery takes less than 10 days.

I'm 5ft 9 / 175cm and ride both Large.

comanche_cor

Some trail bikes are closer to enduro bikes than you would think. IMO I think trail bikes are best of most riding in Ireland anyways.

MaSz

I have Radon Slide Trail and it is a beast! Up or down it swallows everything you throw at it.
Have the bike for 2 years with nearly 3500km on the clock and I'm 100kg plus. No issues with the bike at all. Still on the original front Magic Marry and i just changed back tyre, cassette and chain.

boomdocker

Lumen wrote: »

2021 Trek Fuel EX 5, large, €2400.

If you have found that one in stock, buy it. Great bikes

Wailin

Lumen wrote: »

OK, thanks Plastik. That all makes sense.

A friend is selling his well cared for Vitus Escarpe VRX which I've tried before and fits, and that worked out better value than anything that I could buy new.

It's a bit slacker than I would like but I guess I can use my hardtail on the faster trails at Ballinastoe.

Vitus escarpe is what I have and it will handle anything you throw at it. Steep knarly descents, gravel tracks, muck, roots......the works . Where it falls down a bit is on climbs as it's heavy (15kg) and you lose energy with the rear shock. Don't get an enduro bike (the escarpe is pretty slack but an enduro bike like the sommet or nukeproof mega is even slacker), they will be a bit more uncomfortable on the climbs again. In my opinion an enduro bike is far too much bike for someone on the trails you mentioned.

Lumen

Wailin wrote: »

Vitus escarpe is what I have and it will handle anything you through at it. Steep knarly descents, gravel tracks, muck, roots......the works . Where it falls down a bit is on climbs as it's heavy (15kg) and you lose energy with the rear shock. Don't get an enduro bike (the escarpe is pretty slack but an enduro bike like the sommet or nukeproof mega is even slacker), they will be a bit more uncomfortable on the climbs again. In my opinion an enduro bike is far too much bike for someone on the trails you mentioned.

So would the Escarpe be at the enduro end of trail bikes?

I got my son a Spectral 6 which seems to be similarly positioned. He hates uphills regardless of what he rides!

maddness

Wailin wrote: »

In my opinion an enduro bike is far too much bike for someone on the trails you mentioned.

This 100%. If you are used to a hard tail even a short travel full suss will be very different particularly if it’s a 29er.
A good trail bike with even 130-140mm travel will do anything for you and will be light enough to get up the hills too.

Wailin

Lumen wrote: »

So would the Escarpe be at the enduro end of trail bikes?

It's labeled as an all mountain bike. Next step up from a trail bike but a step down from an enduro. Basically a good all rounder for someone who wants to go a bit further than coilte trails and into natural black trails. Not to say a good trail bike wouldn't do that either.

Peter T

Its worth mentioning that many "trail bikes" are similar geo to enduro bikes not so long ago. My 2016 Giant reign has pretty simular geo to the Escarpe and now also the trance. I'll be changing bikes at some stage this year and I'm finding it hard to justify a full modern enduro machine when I can have a more all rounded trail package that will manage a few races

Tenzor07

Wailin wrote: »

Vitus escarpe is what I have and it will handle Where it falls down a bit is on climbs as it's heavy (15kg) and you lose energy with the rear shock..

Yikes! 15kg would be a barge of a thing to pedal uphill and try muscle around some MTB trails, there's ebikes that weigh that amount!


If I were you OP i'd look at trail hardtails, should weigh no more than 13kg in your price range and for Coillte trails they are just right...

I myself am on a Carbon trail hardtail with a 130mm fork, and 2.6 tyres, it's perfect for pretty much everything, weighs around 10.8kg

Wailin

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Yikes! 15kg would be a barge of a thing to pedal uphill and try muscle around some MTB trails, there's ebikes that weigh that amount!

Good luck in finding an e bike that weighs 15kg! They are around 24-25kg.

14-15 kg is the norm for a heavy duty full suspension bike with 36 forks. Even carbon versions are only about a kilo lighter.

I agree though, a hardtail is perfect for the coilte trails and fireroads. I had a hardtail first and the difference in the climbs was a shock going to the full suss. But the comfort and control in descents on the sketchy natural trails makes up for it.

Lumen

Well my 26 hardtail is <9kg and I love it on flowing, non-techical stuff, so I do see the attraction, but even if I got one with slacker geo and bigger wheels I don't have Tenzor's talent so I still think a full susser is needed, if only so I can swing back the other way in a few months.

The Vitus is a bird-in-the-hand thing. It's just too frustrating trying to shop around with so little stock and such massive lead times. When COVID is over and the stock situation has improved I'll do a few rides on different bikes and then possibly consolidate on to a single shorter travel trail bike, but right now I'm not even supposed to be leaving the house so the Vitus will do fine.

Regardless, this thread has been invaluable so thanks for all the contributions!

Mr. Grieves

I wouldn't get anything slacker than a 67 degree head angle or you'll hate every climb. 140mm trail bikes are more than enough. They tend to be quite heavy unless you spend big money.

A modern geometry bike with a dropper will feel very confidence inspiring on steep trails compared to your current bike, regardless of the suspension travel.

Large bottle small glass

Tenzor07 wrote: »

If I were you OP i'd look at trail hardtails, should weigh no more than 13kg in your price range and for Coillte trails they are just right...

I myself am on a Carbon trail hardtail with a 130mm fork, and 2.6 tyres, it's perfect for pretty much everything, weighs around 10.8kg

I'd agree with this.

For a road cyclist, who won't give mtb the time it takes to skill up, there are a lot of advantages to a modern hardtail
*simplier to set up for any given terrain
*simplier to maintain
*cheaper
*lighter

Try and get your hands on a trail hardtail for a spin. I found on my first spin or two that I was quicker and felt safer on steep singletrack despite having done hardly any mtb riding in the previous 12 months.

That fear of going over the handlebars was gone. I'm skeptical of most "new" technology when it comes to bikes but the modern hardtail isn't one of them.

In saying that I sold mine after a short enough time as I didn't have the time to keep doing what I wanted with gravel/backroads and to improve at mtb riding. If you are going to buy make your mind up to make the time to improve when you do get it

You'll look ridiculous in baggys with lads half your age but it's just a different kind of ridiculous

Peter T

Mr. Grieves wrote: »

I wouldn't get anything slacker than a 67 degree head angle or you'll hate every climb. 140mm trail bikes are more than enough. They tend to be quite heavy unless you spend big money.

A modern geometry bike with a dropper will feel very confidence inspiring on steep trails compared to your current bike, regardless of the suspension travel.

I wouldnt agree with this. My hardtails 66.5 and full suss 65. Once your forks and shocks are set up properly you'll take no notice and spin away

Wailin

^^^ spot on.

Plastik

Would agree too. Did 45k/1300m on my Trance X yesterday with a HTA of 65.5, climbs just fine IMO. If you're doing a lot of XC or wanted something that actually feels nimble on climbs then maybe consider the few deg steeper. But for the use case here of GAP & Ballinastoe, fire road climbing, then that wouldn't particularly apply IMO.

Tenzor07

Large bottle small glass wrote: »

I'd agree with this.
For a road cyclist, who won't give mtb the time it takes to skill up, there are a lot of advantages to a modern hardtail
*simplier to set up for any given terrain
*simplier to maintain
*cheaper
*lighter
Try and get your hands on a trail hardtail for a spin. I found on my first spin or two that I was quicker and felt safer on steep singletrack despite having done hardly any mtb riding in the previous 12 months.
That fear of going over the handlebars was gone. I'm skeptical of most "new" technology when it comes to bikes but the modern hardtail isn't one of them.
In saying that I sold mine after a short enough time as I didn't have the time to keep doing what I wanted with gravel/backroads and to improve at mtb riding. If you are going to buy make your mind up to make the time to improve when you do get it

Trail hardtail for anyone in my opinion You've got like 45cm of rear "suspension" in your legs..

My HT is full carbon, 67 degree HA, 130mm fork and 2.6in Maxxis tyres..

Could put Cushcore into the tyres and run lower pressures without a risk of pinch punctures too...

Mr. Grieves

Peter T wrote: »

I wouldnt agree with this. My hardtails 66.5 and full suss 65. Once your forks and shocks are set up properly you'll take no notice and spin away

Maybe it was a bit of a sweeping statement from me. I'm about to sell my enduro bike (170mm, 65 deg head angle) because I hate climbing on it so much, and I don't feel it's worth it for its descending abilities compared with my 120mm XC-ish bike. I guess it's about more than just geometry but I'd agree with those saying don't go too enduro.

saccades

Seatpost angle for climbing.
Head tube angle for descending.
Effective reach for fit.

Tbh I wouldn't be too concerned - any non-extreme geometry from the last 5 years (long, low, slack) is going to be well able. It might not be the fastest for a given situation but the OP appears to be looking for a mountain bike for general messing about.

xxyyzz

Don't worry about weight, that's the roadie in you thinking. With modern gearing you can winch up any climb on a full suss bike. I have a trek remedy which has 160mm travel and I can happily pedal it all day and I'm not super-fit. I think your first post answered most of your own questions. A trail bike with 130 - 150mm suspension would be perfect. Don't overthink it.

My buddy just started mtb and wound up getting a giant reign which is way more bike than he'll ever need but he's as happy as a pig in sh*t on it and that's all that matters. You'll adapt to whatever bike you get once it's the correct size for you.

Lumen

First ride on the Vitus Escarpe on the local trails yesterday.

So much fun! All my ancient preconceptions about full sussers blown away.

It was even fun on the road riding to and from the trails. 60kph on knobblies! I'd even ride it to the shops.

seanin4711

looking for a MTB full suspension for sub 1500.
is this possible?
if so can anyone recommend a good B&M store(s) to provide me with such an item, if they exist.
thanks
John

Lumen

seanin4711 wrote: »

looking for a MTB full suspension for sub 1500.
is this possible?
if so can anyone recommend a good B&M store(s) to provide me with such an item, if they exist.
thanks
John

Probably should start a new thread like "Full suspension for sub 1500?".

They do exist but are likely not good.

Wailin

seanin4711 wrote: »

looking for a MTB full suspension for sub 1500.
is this possible?
if so can anyone recommend a good B&M store(s) to provide me with such an item, if they exist.
thanks
John

If brand new forget about it and get a good hardtail instead, you'd be better off. If buying used, you might get something 3 years old or more that would do the job. Something like this http://www.adverts.ie/23189486