2021 Irish EV sales

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117841234#Comment_117841234

I believe the road tax is quite cheap for PHEVs compared to their Petrol or Diesel equivalents. And they're still eligible for a pertial VRT rebate AFAIK

The whole reason why diesel still sells well is simple, it's cheap fuel

In terms of efficiency, petrol engines have closed the gap on diesels, most of the technologies that gave diesels and edge have been replicated on petrol engines

But diesel is still 10c cheaper at the pumps, so it's going to be cheaper than petrol no matter what

FWIW, it does my head in when I see BMW or Audi diesels in particular. What they've done is take a performance car and ruin it by putting a noisy tractor engine in the front

Can't do that with an EV thankfully 😁

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117838193#Comment_117838193

I'm more concerned about the 10 "manual" transmission EVs in August. I wonder how that works 😁

I noticed there were exactly 10 e-208s sold, they must have it down as a manual

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117832623#Comment_117832623

Interesting to see how the cross brand platforms are doing:

ID cars (ID.3, ID.4, Q4 E-tron, Enyaq) = 358

Stellantis (e-208, w-2008, Corsa-E, Mokka-E, C4) = 47

Kona/Niro = 142 (mostly E-Niro)

E-Tron GT/Taycan = 10 very happy customers

There's also the E-GMP but only the Ioniq 5 is on that currently I'm not counting it yet

This kinda goes back to my point about some brands not bothering to push their EV sales. There's a trend of EV only platform doing better in sales IMO

VAG is definitely pushing the ID cars and I suspect Hyundai/Kia sales will pick up a lot when the Ioniq 5 & EV6 get volume

The E-Niro is the exception to this rule, I think just being a great all round EV helps it, although the competition is catching up

Stellantis on the other hand are making great EVs on a hybrid platform and still only managed to sell 47 of them 😑

pdpmur

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117842450#Comment_117842450

The price difference between petrol and diesel at the pumps is something of a legacy issue due to the lower rate of taxation on diesel by comparison with petrol. This is something that the Green Party have flagged as being something that they want to eliminate, so don't be surprised if the price difference at the pumps disappears in the years to come.

Interestingly, the most thermodynamically efficient combustion engines are diesel engines running on petrol - only demonstrated on test bed engines so far, but just proves that the basic diesel/otto cycle (combined with lower inherent parasitic losses in diesel engines) is hard to beat for efficiency.

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f8/deer10_johansson.pdf

slave1

The shift is not going to be quantum, it will be gradual, those with more disposable income will lead the way and in time fuel the used car market. There are a lot of folk out there that can never afford a new car so are (even though they probably don’t realise it) in a queue for a 2019-2021 EV some time in 2023+.

We still have the unresolved issue of sh1te public charging, no home charging solution for those without a front “garden”, EV sceptics and no tow hitch (c’mon, we have large rural requirements for this, don’t think for a second the current tow EV are anywhere near a viable solution).

Time will help us for the first paragraph, proper intervention the second but unfortunately ineptitude of Irish “politicians” does not fill me with ANY confidence e.g. withdrawal/reduction of EV incentives when we are clearly still in adoption phase

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845207#Comment_117845207

I have to agree on both points, a lot of the EVs being bought today will filter through to the second hand market in 2024 when their PCP deals are up

Regarding the 2nd, there's no great innovations or anything needed, just money and proper guidelines. Unfortunately as we've seen with Irish politicians, both are in short supply

slave1

It's not even about money/guidelines, look what Norway did and replicate, they couldn't even do that, anyhow gone OT now, apols all

innrain

Even though most of the people here would have seen this it is good to have this article for a bit of context

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/09/05/16-countries-now-over-10-plugin-vehicle-share-6-over-20/

Spoiler alert: We made it on the list :) I personally feel that we could do better. I wonder what would be the effect of grant removal on the sales in the next 6 months.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117852608#Comment_117852608

Not great considering we are an island, do journey distances are limited. We should be aiming for much more

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117852967#Comment_117852967

Absolutely, although I suspect supply is also eating into numbers. People looking for an ID.4 in a hurry, no availability for months so the salesman swings them towards a Tiguan already in stock 😬

garo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843259#Comment_117843259

I am curious about this. I thought putting petrol in a diessel engine was a recipe for trouble. Also note that their overall efficiency never really exceeds 30ish percent whereas an electric motor is 90% efficient.

Widdensushi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117853184#Comment_117853184

Depends how you produce the electricity

garo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117853249#Comment_117853249

I don't think the method of producing electricity has anything to do with the efficiency of an electric motor.

But your point about electricity production having it's own inefficiencies is a fair one. A nat gas CCGT is around 55-60% efficient. So even with transmission and chargnig losees electricity from nat gas come out a bit ahead of an ICE. But solar and wind are practically emissions-free (once the turbine/panel has been made). My own car is charging from my solar panels as I write this.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117853184#Comment_117853184

One hopes they did some modification to the engine first

As to your second point, yes the theoretical efficiency of an ICE engine is around 40% and they tend to perform worse than that because we don't all drive very efficiently at constant speed on perfectly flat and straight roads

Strictly speaking you'll also lose some energy in an EV due to the inverter and losses from resistance. But they're still lightyears ahead of ICE engines

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117853249#Comment_117853249

Well if you're going down that road you also need to consider the inefficiencies in producing the fuel in an ICE car

Whenever you read those garbage press articles about some study showing EVs pollute more than ICE cars, they generally fail to do the above

Often these studies will consider the environmental impact of the electricity used in a countries national grid, but they just assume the petrol magically appears in the pump

The reality of course is that all the extraction, refining and transportation of oil is a massive energy user and source of pollution

Even if an EV is powered by electricity is produced from oil or gas it would still be cleaner than an ICE car because the power plants would be run at more optimal efficiency and the transpoartation impact is lower because the fuel is going to one place instead of being distributed

80sDiesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117855476#Comment_117855476

I like what Nissan are doing with e-power. They maximise the efficiency of the ice by disconnecting it from the wheels and it only charges the battery thus being able to run at its optimal cycle. They recently also had a breakthrough achieving 50% thermal efficiency which will be incorporated into their next gen e-power system.

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117857936#Comment_117857936

If they could find a way to connect a cable to it, then their maxi efficient engine would use less again.

Busman Paddy Lasty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117858104#Comment_117858104

If they add a cable/plug then need to add a decent battery too. They could put in a 40kWh battery but then have to take out the e-Power engine :)

garo

How big is the battery in it currently? And how much cycling does it see? Also isn't this the same as the ReX in the i3?

80sDiesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117858227#Comment_117858227

Tiny battery. 1.5kWh I think , maybe more in the upcoming qashqai version.. Yep same as i3 rex. , The battery in a sense serves as buffer between the optimal engine cycle and the wheels, can avail of regen one pedal driving, and saves on battery size and negates the need for a transmission.

A PEV rather than a BEV. ;)

garo

1.5kWh means it either gets cycled to death (unless it has generous buffers on both sides and is actually a 2.5/3 KWh battery) or the petrol power plant doesn't get to perform at optimal. I am curious how this works in city driving. That 100kW petrol engine won't be able to put much of it's energy into the 1.5kWh battery. 65C is a hell of a charging rate.

Basically it's a more efficient ICE.

the_amazing_raisin

I think the E-Power Note which was Japan only had something like a 40kWh battery plus AC charging. It was very similar to the i3 Rex in principle

I liked that version, seems much better thought out than the Qashqai version which is essentially a fancy hybrid

However we've got EVs with much more range now, to the point where even the Rex fans are going full electric. So I'm not sure the whole backup petrol engine idea works for as many people anymore

Busman Paddy Lasty

It's a 1.5kWh battery in the Japanese Note e power. The engine can power the electric motor directly. More a petrol-electric drivetrain with a bit of battery for regen.

AndyBoBandy

If the government or EU really wanted to get serious about reducing emissions they should ban new ICE models being introduced into EU markets as a precursor to the ban on al new ICE sales by 2030, so the likes of this new Qashqai ‘e-power’ would be banned altogether, and manufacturers were only allowed to sell existing models of ICE cars (including hybrids) up until 2030.

want to introduce a new version of a current or upcoming car??, that’s fine, it must be BEV only.

pdpmur

In the real world that's just not going to happen. The stick approach alone is just not practical, it will be a mix of carrot and stick.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117859180#Comment_117859180

Thanks, must have been a concept or something, I'm sure I remember something about an E-power car with a proper battery

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117859377#Comment_117859377

To be fair, several of the european manufacturers are stopping development of their ICE engines. Mercedes are the latest on this

https://www.electrive.com/2021/09/07/daimler-is-done-with-plug-in-hybrids/

I know it doesn't stop them producing or selling new models with those engines, but it seems a pretty clear signal about where the future is. They obviously think any further developments in ICE won't make any money

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117855476#Comment_117855476

F1 engines - having a hybrid drivetrain mind - have reached over 50% thermal efficiency. Max of 40% is not true. That tech is going to filter to road cars pretty soon.

garo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117862051#Comment_117862051

That's only the max. The problem is that efficiency is not constant across load and the engines are not running under optimal load most of the time. Also Thermal efficiency while the major source of losses is not the only one. You have losses from gas exchange, combustion efficiency and mechanical efficiency. All of those add up and total efficiency is much lower.

innrain

September figures are in. EV market share 17.51%

Renault is out of Top10 replaced by MG, Nissan is down to 6.