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Should Wexford Waterford line reopen?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Ben D Bus wrote: »
    I wonder what impact the development of Waterford's North Quay, and the moving of the train station into the heart of the new development, along with a footbridge from there to the old centre, might have on passenger numbers.

    More than that, it's a covered structure which will have a tram system as well as space for pedestrians/bikes. So you can be whisked across to the city centre in the dry having stepped off the train right into the North Quays development structure in the dry. Okay then you get wet from the south quays but you can't have everything :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,716 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    There's basically no container and bulk carrying activity at Rosslare Port, which would be the only justification for reopening Rosslare-Waterford.

    The M11 final section will likely now be accelerated and that will give excellent connection to the N25 onwards to Waterford and the South West.

    The railway should be left rot.


  • Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭ohographite


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    There's basically no container and bulk carrying activity at Rosslare Port, which would be the only justification for reopening Rosslare-Waterford.

    The M11 final section will likely now be accelerated and that will give excellent connection to the N25 onwards to Waterford and the South West.

    The railway should be left rot.

    My guess is that if the railway reopened with a better passenger service than what it had, it would encourage enough people out of their cars to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, so that would be a reason for reopening it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭ohographite


    nilhg wrote: »
    Again thanks for your answer, even though to be honest on the face of it, it doesn't seem to support your cause.

    To be honest as someone looking at this from up the country and looking at the case for increasing public transport in the South East which I'm sure there's a need for it will be hard to make the case for huge capital investment in rail when it will be much simpler and cheaper (relatively speaking) to leverage the past investment in roads and just roll out increased investment in bus services.

    Even with the Green party getting an increased split of transport investment being spent on public transport there isn't an unlimited pot and there are many demands on that budget.

    This is a fair point, and I agree that there are some more important potential public transport investments in Ireland. The reason why I am still hoping that this line reopens is that I think that trains can encourage some people out of their cars who wouldn't be encouraged out of their cars by a bus.
    I think this because the following point is made in the South East on Track Business Case:
    "A recent study in Germany found that 63 percent of subjects preferred a regional train system over an equivalent bus system, given a hypothetical choice with all other factors being equal.
    An additional study from Switzerland showed 75 percent preferring rail to buses — even given identical service levels."

    Here is the article where both of these studies are mentioned:
    http://usa.streetsblog.org/2012/06/21/explaining-the-psychological-appeal-of-rail-over-buses/

    I know that the article says that the percentage who prefer trains to buses might be different in other countries, but as far as I know, no similar study has been done in Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,716 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    My guess is that if the railway reopened with a better passenger service than what it had, it would encourage enough people out of their cars to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, so that would be a reason for reopening it.

    What, for those hundred thousand cars who travel from Wexford to Waterford every day?

    My father retired to Wexford. The only things that took him to Waterford when he was alive were the private hospital occasionally and one annual shopping trip.

    Its a pointless commute, because the cost of housing and living in WD is similar to WX so why wouldn't you.

    The only daily demand for travel, from people who can't drive, is likely students going to the IT and that trip can be done in one hour by bus.

    If you lived in Wexford town, you'd have to travel by train to Rosslare Strand and either that train would have to reroute to the Waterford line or you'd have to join a new train. It would take a minimum of 2.5 hours to accomplish. Worse, if you wanted to get to the IT campus, you'd still have another 20 minute bus ride from Waterford station!

    There is zero greater case for reopening Rosslare to Waterford now than there was at the time it shut 11 years ago. In fact the N25 upgrade means the case for leaving it rot is stronger. People are encouraged out of cars for greater convenience, especially for a daily commute, not because of green issues. And the unavoidable fact is you can do the trip by car in 40% of the time with the added benefit of point-to-point, on a route with next to no traffic congestion. Case closed.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭ohographite


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    What, for those hundred thousand cars who travel from Wexford to Waterford every day?

    My father retired to Wexford. The only things that took him to Waterford when he was alive were the private hospital occasionally and one annual shopping trip.

    Its a pointless commute, because the cost of housing and living in WD is similar to WX so why wouldn't you.

    The only daily demand for travel, from people who can't drive, is likely students going to the IT and that trip can be done in one hour by bus.

    If you lived in Wexford town, you'd have to travel by train to Rosslare Strand and either that train would have to reroute to the Waterford line or you'd have to join a new train. It would take a minimum of 2.5 hours to accomplish. Worse, if you wanted to get to the IT campus, you'd still have another 20 minute bus ride from Waterford station!

    There is zero greater case for reopening Rosslare to Waterford now than there was at the time it shut 11 years ago. In fact the N25 upgrade means the case for leaving it rot is stronger. People are encouraged out of cars for greater convenience, especially for a daily commute, not because of green issues. And the unavoidable fact is you can do the trip by car in 40% of the time with the added benefit of point-to-point, on a route with next to no traffic congestion. Case closed.

    It would not take 2.5 hours to travel by train from Waterford to Wexford if the line was reopened with the speeds which were achieved on the it when it was open. The journey from Wexford to Waterford took 1 hour and 35 minutes when the line was open, and the line could be reopened with better speeds so that the journey time is reduced to about 50 minutes, which would be similar to the journey times by car. A railway does not need to offer faster journey times than the journey times by car to encourage enough people out of their cars to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, since most railways in the country do this, despite offering journey times slower than car journey times.

    I would estimate that the amount of people who would travel by train from Waterford to Wexford is the same as the amount who travel by train from Waterford to Kilkenny. Waterford to Wexford journeys are only one journey which would be possible with the reopening of Waterford-Rosslare. Other journeys which would be possible by train include Waterford to Bray or Greystones, Wexford to Kilkenny, Dublin to Bridgetown, Wellingtonbridge, Ballycullane or Campile. I'd say that if all of these journeys were facilitated by the timetable one the line if it reopened, then it would succeed in reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
    I have a previous post(post #21) on this thread where I give a detailed estimate on how many passengers I think would use the line, with a detailed explanation on where I got the estimates from.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,716 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Even if they managed to increase patronage from 2010 levels by 1000% it would only be 250 passengers per day.

    There simply isn't the demand out there to justify the hundreds of millions of euro that would be needed to reduce the journey times by half from 2010, as you suggest.

    The biggest lesson is the abject failure of Limerick - Galway, when it isn't under water.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Any scope for getting container traffic off roads?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,100 ✭✭✭nilhg


    This is a fair point, and I agree that there are some more important potential public transport investments in Ireland. The reason why I am still hoping that this line reopens is that I think that trains can encourage some people out of their cars who wouldn't be encouraged out of their cars by a bus.
    I think this because the following point is made in the South East on Track Business Case:
    "A recent study in Germany found that 63 percent of subjects preferred a regional train system over an equivalent bus system, given a hypothetical choice with all other factors being equal.
    An additional study from Switzerland showed 75 percent preferring rail to buses — even given identical service levels."

    Here is the article where both of these studies are mentioned:
    http://usa.streetsblog.org/2012/06/21/explaining-the-psychological-appeal-of-rail-over-buses/

    I know that the article says that the percentage who prefer trains to buses might be different in other countries, but as far as I know, no similar study has been done in Ireland.

    I'd prefer to take a train over a bus too, but that's irrelevant really, the cost of providing the service has to be taken into account.

    I look at it this way, if the old alignment wasn't there would anyone consider building it? I think the answer to that is clear, the questions then are a: how to provide public transport in the area and b: the best use for the asset in state ownership.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    nilhg wrote: »
    I'd prefer to take a train over a bus too, but that's irrelevant really, the cost of providing the service has to be taken into account.

    I look at it this way, if the old alignment wasn't there would anyone consider building it? I think the answer to that is clear, the questions then are a: how to provide public transport in the area and b: the best use for the asset in state ownership.


    Hello, the closest port to the Continent and GB (from the South & West) and they wouldn't build a rail link to it if they were building railways now. :rolleyes:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,100 ✭✭✭nilhg


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Hello, the closest port to the Continent and GB (from the South & West) and they wouldn't build a rail link to it if they were building railways now. :rolleyes:

    Well it has a rail link from Dublin.

    How many foot passengers use the various car/freight ferries?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    nilhg wrote: »
    Well it has a rail link from Dublin.

    How many foot passengers use the various car/freight ferries?


    Very few at present due to cheap air travel which has no long term future. The Icelandic Volcanic eruption some years ago shows just how useful the rail link could be. And why you mention the Dublin/Rosslare line in the context of the alignment debate is beyond me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭ohographite


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Even if they managed to increase patronage from 2010 levels by 1000% it would only be 250 passengers per day.

    There simply isn't the demand out there to justify the hundreds of millions of euro that would be needed to reduce the journey times by half from 2010, as you suggest.

    The biggest lesson is the abject failure of Limerick - Galway, when it isn't under water.

    My estimate of the patronage is 560 journeys a day, which I thoroughly explained in post #21 earlier in this thread. I don't see why this is an optimistic estimate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,716 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    My estimate of the patronage is 560 journeys a day, which I thoroughly explained in post #21 earlier in this thread. I don't see why this is an optimistic estimate.

    Coach capacity already exists for that demand. Even if it didn't, six brand spanking new buses with all the trimmings would satisfy for €1.5 million.

    How much would it take to bring Rosslare-Waterford back into service, let alone to a standard for 50 minute journey times? 100 million? 200?

    The whole notion is a nonsense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    I see no benefit to this to be honest.
    It'll be another Ballybrophy line. Expensive subvention at the expense of the tax payer.
    Is there significant demand for daily commuters between the 2?
    I'm all for investment in infrastructure but it can't be just at enormous loss.
    A greenaway is another good addition to tourism in the region.


  • Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭ohographite


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Coach capacity already exists for that demand. Even if it didn't, six brand spanking new buses with all the trimmings would satisfy for €1.5 million.

    How much would it take to bring Rosslare-Waterford back into service, let alone to a standard for 50 minute journey times? 100 million? 200?

    The whole notion is a nonsense.

    Trains encourage people out of their cars who wouldn't be encouraged out of their cars by a bus.
    This article(which I already shared today on this thread) shows that studies done in Germany and Switzerland show that a significant majority of people prefer taking the train to taking the bus.
    http://usa.streetsblog.org/2012/06/21/explaining-the-psychological-appeal-of-rail-over-buses/

    I would say that it would cost around 100 million euro to reopen Waterford-Rosslare with 60-70 miles per hour track.
    It cost a similar amount to reopen the section of railway from Ennis to Athenry, and that track has similar speed.
    I'd say a 100 million euro investment is worth it though, to help stop the climate crisis by taking cars off the road. I am aware that the section of railway from Ennis to Athenry has failed to achieve its predicted passenger numbers(in 2019 it carried about 160,000 passengers, less than the predicted 200,000) but it seems to me that it has still successfully taken enough cars off the road to help stop the climate crisis. I doubt it has been since the lockdown started last year, but I'd say most railways all over the world have experienced a plummet in passenger numbers since then. Passenger numbers will rise again once the lockdown is over.


  • Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭ohographite


    I see no benefit to this to be honest.
    It'll be another Ballybrophy line. Expensive subvention at the expense of the tax payer.
    Is there significant demand for daily commuters between the 2?
    I'm all for investment in infrastructure but it can't be just at enormous loss.
    A greenaway is another good addition to tourism in the region.

    The Limerick-Nenagh-Ballybrophy line would be used for hundreds more journeys every day if it had an improved service. What I mean by an improved service is trains that reach Limerick city in time for the start of the working day, and trains that depart it after the end of the working day, as both are necessary for people to be able to use the line to travel to work, school or college in Limerick city. Neither are on the timetable when the line is in operation.
    Another way to improve the service is to have direct trains from the Limerick-Nenagh-Ballybrophy line to Dublin, since the need to change trains at ballybrophy limits the line's passenger numbers, to a certain extent.
    As far as I know, neither of the two ways I suggested to improve the Limerick-Nenagh-Ballybrophy line would require significant investments to implement.

    As for the Rosslare-Waterford line, I bet that it would be used for about 560 journeys daily if it reopened with a better service than what it had, by which i mean a service similar to what I suggested in post #21 in this thread.
    It would help stop the climate crisis by encouraging people out of their cars who wouldn't be encouraged out of their cars by a bus. It is possible to introduce a greenway to south county Wexford which could co exist with the railway if reopened.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I would say that it would cost around 100 million euro to reopen Waterford-Rosslare with 60-70 miles per hour track.
    It cost a similar amount to reopen the section of railway from Ennis to Athenry, and that track has similar speed.

    The WRC has a speed closer to 50kph. Its a 2 hr train ride that takes 1hr 20mins to drive

    You REALLY don't want to be referring to the WRC if you are trying to make a case to justify reopening a line. The abysmal performance of that line (pick any metric) has done more to damage the case for rail than anything else we're likely to see in our lifetimes


  • Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭ohographite


    DaCor wrote: »
    The WRC has a speed closer to 50kph. Its a 2 hr train ride that takes 1hr 20mins to drive

    You REALLY don't want to be referring to the WRC if you are trying to make a case to justify reopening a line. The abysmal performance of that line (pick any metric) has done more to damage the case for rail than anything else we're likely to see in our lifetimes

    The journey time from Ennis to Athenry typically takes 50 minutes. That is the typical journey time that comes up when I try to book a ticket from Ennis to Athenry on irishrail.ie.
    The distance from Wexford to Waterford is about 60 km, which is also the distance from Ennis to Athenry.
    If it cost €100 million to reopen the 60km of railway from Ennis to Athenry with a journey time from one town to the other of 50 minutes, then it would likely cost a similar amount to reopen the 60km of railway from Wexford to Waterford with a journey time from one town to the other of 50 minutes.
    Travelling 60km in 50 minutes is an average speed of 72km/h, and a train journey from Wexford to Waterford with that speed would be a similar speed to travelling by car.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,716 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    It would help stop the climate crisis by encouraging people out of their cars who wouldn't be encouraged out of their cars by a bus.

    Can you explain to me the research that indicates that in a rural network, trains are more attractive alternatives that buses? Is it not the case that potential passengers want to get somewhere cheaper, faster and more direct?

    Whatever about a City context, where space in the public realm is at something of a premium, people in rural Ireland and I daresay rural any Country, are absolutely not going to be tempted out of their cars to address the climate crisis.

    They believe, as I do, that addressing the climate crisis requires global energy transformation, to localised renewables and the energy generation potential of individual buildings and vehicles through a mix of solar, wind, heat recovery, geothermal, grey water optimisation and all that good stuff. Not the removal of personal conveniences to which we have become used over the past century for the sake of a sticking plaster solution that creates a whole new set of societal problems.

    People are going to keep their cars and travel in buses, but they are going to be electric and hydrogen fuel celled, as are light commercial vehicles even now coming onto the market.

    All that means, that while high speed electric intercity travel by rail and light rail systems within cities both have a future, obscure inefficient old lines serving nothing but green fields, like Rosslare-Waterford, are destined to rot into the landscape.

    You want to invest a hundred million quid on a service for 560 people per day. Growing to what? 1,000 in 10 years?

    A single 50km DART line in Dublin carries 100,000 people on a busy weekday. The DART extension lines will add another 50,000+ in electrified service capacity in its first phases. Thats the kind of numbers you need to be banking on for heavy rail investment, not 500 or even 5,000. There is a zero percent chance of Rosslare-Waterford being reappraised to open again.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,812 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Trains encourage people out of their cars who wouldn't be encouraged out of their cars by a bus.
    This article(which I already shared today on this thread) shows that studies done in Germany and Switzerland show that a significant majority of people prefer taking the train to taking the bus.
    http://usa.streetsblog.org/2012/06/21/explaining-the-psychological-appeal-of-rail-over-buses/

    I would say that it would cost around 100 million euro to reopen Waterford-Rosslare with 60-70 miles per hour track.
    It cost a similar amount to reopen the section of railway from Ennis to Athenry, and that track has similar speed.
    I'd say a 100 million euro investment is worth it though, to help stop the climate crisis by taking cars off the road. I am aware that the section of railway from Ennis to Athenry has failed to achieve its predicted passenger numbers(in 2019 it carried about 160,000 passengers, less than the predicted 200,000) but it seems to me that it has still successfully taken enough cars off the road to help stop the climate crisis. I doubt it has been since the lockdown started last year, but I'd say most railways all over the world have experienced a plummet in passenger numbers since then. Passenger numbers will rise again once the lockdown is over.

    €100m to get <600 people out of their cars when <€2m will do the same job:eek:

    Rebuilding a rail line would have a massive environmental impact to get <600 out of their cars vs 10 new buses running on the roads already built.

    Spending €100m in any of our cities on public transport or cycling/walking infrastructure could get thousands out of their cars a day and have a bigger environmental impact.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    Del2005 wrote: »
    €100m to get <600 people out of their cars when <€2m will do the same job:eek:

    Rebuilding a rail line would have a massive environmental impact to get <600 out of their cars vs 10 new buses running on the roads already built.

    Spending €100m in any of our cities on public transport or cycling/walking infrastructure could get thousands out of their cars a day and have a bigger environmental impact.

    Beat me to it. How can he justify a rail line for 560 passengers (a figure I'd love to know where it came from)?

    ohographite, that Ennis to Athenry train is another empty white elephant. Even if the train time to suit Ballybrophy better, you are talking about a couple of hundred people max on that train. There just isn't the demand in a place like that to justify it and such demand can easily be covered by a few buses.

    I am 100% supporting the green agenda, we need to get people out of cars etc but there is no justifying 100m to re-open this line when the Rosslare-Dublin line is in desparate need of investment. I would also say that a couple of million spent on improving cycling facilities in and around the major towns in Wexford, would be money much better spent.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    To get from Rosslare Europort to Wexford is timetabled at 23 mins. and according to Google, a car will take 23 mins. Now there are three trains in each direction currently, 7:20 am, 12:55 and 17:55, none of which is designed to meet any ferries. I would imagine that the ferries are the only source of passengers for the train at Rosslare Europort, and yet the train ignores them.

    Now a bus service could provide a better service than this at very low cost, since the road is there and maintained anyway, could be timed to meet any ferries, and any number of coaches could be provided to meet any actual demand.

    So what possible advantage has the train over the coach?

    I would imagine that outside intercity rail journeys, rural rail is not meeting much of a need, particularly where there exists motorways, like Tuam to Athenry, or Athenry to Limerick.

    Are there any surveys of possible passenger demand from Waterford to Wexford? Are they more than - 'Yes, I would use the train when my car breaks down!'

    There are no numbers that are believable for passenger traffic on this line, and improvements on the N25 render them unlikely to be based on reality, but more on wishful thinking and dreaming.


  • Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭ohographite


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Can you explain to me the research that indicates that in a rural network, trains are more attractive alternatives that buses? Is it not the case that potential passengers want to get somewhere cheaper, faster and more direct?

    Whatever about a City context, where space in the public realm is at something of a premium, people in rural Ireland and I daresay rural any Country, are absolutely not going to be tempted out of their cars to address the climate crisis.

    They believe, as I do, that addressing the climate crisis requires global energy transformation, to localised renewables and the energy generation potential of individual buildings and vehicles through a mix of solar, wind, heat recovery, geothermal, grey water optimisation and all that good stuff. Not the removal of personal conveniences to which we have become used over the past century for the sake of a sticking plaster solution that creates a whole new set of societal problems.

    People are going to keep their cars and travel in buses, but they are going to be electric and hydrogen fuel celled, as are light commercial vehicles even now coming onto the market.

    All that means, that while high speed electric intercity travel by rail and light rail systems within cities both have a future, obscure inefficient old lines serving nothing but green fields, like Rosslare-Waterford, are destined to rot into the landscape.

    You want to invest a hundred million quid on a service for 560 people per day. Growing to what? 1,000 in 10 years?

    A single 50km DART line in Dublin carries 100,000 people on a busy weekday. The DART extension lines will add another 50,000+ in electrified service capacity in its first phases. Thats the kind of numbers you need to be banking on for heavy rail investment, not 500 or even 5,000. There is a zero percent chance of Rosslare-Waterford being reappraised to open again.

    I do not understand why it is crazy to reopen a railway for 500 or even 5, 000 people. Two reopenings of heavy rail lines, Cork-Midleton and Clonsilla-M3 Parkway, have been done to carry less than 5, 000 passengers in a day.

    The former carried 480, 000 passengers in 2019(1300 a day) and the latter carried 157, 000 in 2017(in 2019 the figure was slightly lower) which was, on average, 432 passengers a day.

    DART expansion of course would carry a lot more people if built, but it would cost a lot more than reopening Waterford-Rosslare, and it would carry people for shorter distances than Waterford-Rosslare would.
    This means that Waterford-Rosslare would take less cars off the road than DART expansion, but the average length of the car journey it prevents would probably be 80km.
    The average length of the car journey that DART expansion would prevent would probably be less, so I'd say it would be 10km.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    It feels like the railway schedules are not run to maximise traffic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭ohographite


    Beat me to it. How can he justify a rail line for 560 passengers (a figure I'd love to know where it came from)?

    ohographite, that Ennis to Athenry train is another empty white elephant. Even if the train time to suit Ballybrophy better, you are talking about a couple of hundred people max on that train. There just isn't the demand in a place like that to justify it and such demand can easily be covered by a few buses.

    I am 100% supporting the green agenda, we need to get people out of cars etc but there is no justifying 100m to re-open this line when the Rosslare-Dublin line is in desparate need of investment. I would also say that a couple of million spent on improving cycling facilities in and around the major towns in Wexford, would be money much better spent.


    On post #21 in this thread, I gave a detailed explanation of where I got my estimate of 560 passengers a day from.

    Improving cycling facilities in towns around Wexford would prevent shorter car journeys than the lengths of car journeys which would be prevented by reopening Waterford-Rosslare.

    I still think trains are preferred to buses by most people.
    The Dublin-Rosslare railway is in direct competition with a Wexford Bus route which offers a faster, cheaper and more frequent service than the train. Despite offering an inferior service, the train service was used by over 1000 people a day before the lockdown, so that is another reason why I think trains are widely preferred to buses.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    It is crazy though. Because the cost of the investment is huge and it is to somewhere which isn't a major commuter route.
    The Clonsilla - M3 Parkway is not a valid comparison because people commute from all sorts of places to that stop and hop on a train into Dublin. The same in Cork - its a large scale employment hub which over time will encourage people to buy houses in Midleton.

    Being realistic, there is no way even 500 people would use that service every day. And if they did, half of them would be on the free travel. It has to at least make some form of sense, either based on an economic, residential or a future planning sense, to do it. At the moment, it makes no sense for any of these.


  • Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭ohographite


    To get from Rosslare Europort to Wexford is timetabled at 23 mins. and according to Google, a car will take 23 mins. Now there are three trains in each direction currently, 7:20 am, 12:55 and 17:55, none of which is designed to meet any ferries. I would imagine that the ferries are the only source of passengers for the train at Rosslare Europort, and yet the train ignores them.

    Now a bus service could provide a better service than this at very low cost, since the road is there and maintained anyway, could be timed to meet any ferries, and any number of coaches could be provided to meet any actual demand.

    So what possible advantage has the train over the coach?

    I would imagine that outside intercity rail journeys, rural rail is not meeting much of a need, particularly where there exists motorways, like Tuam to Athenry, or Athenry to Limerick.

    Are there any surveys of possible passenger demand from Waterford to Wexford? Are they more than - 'Yes, I would use the train when my car breaks down!'

    There are no numbers that are believable for passenger traffic on this line, and improvements on the N25 render them unlikely to be based on reality, but more on wishful thinking and dreaming.

    I do not understand why my estimate of 560 passengers a day is unbelievable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭ohographite


    It is crazy though. Because the cost of the investment is huge and it is to somewhere which isn't a major commuter route.
    The Clonsilla - M3 Parkway is not a valid comparison because people commute from all sorts of places to that stop and hop on a train into Dublin. The same in Cork - its a large scale employment hub which over time will encourage people to buy houses in Midleton.

    Being realistic, there is no way even 500 people would use that service every day. And if they did, half of them would be on the free travel. It has to at least make some form of sense, either based on an economic, residential or a future planning sense, to do it. At the moment, it makes no sense for any of these.

    Why is it unrealistic to expect 560 passengers a day to use it? There is future planning for Waterford's population to grow to over 80, 000, and for the population of Wexford to grow to 26, 000, by 2040.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I do not understand why my estimate of 560 passengers a day is unbelievable.

    Your number is an estimate backed by nothing more than a few unfounded assumptions of your own. If you want the line reopened, then get some surveys done that back your estimates, and make sure they have some provenance that gives those surveys believable backing.

    I think it is more likely the Rosslare Europort to Wexford will close than Waterford to Wexford line will reopen. Perhaps you should concentrate your efforts on keeping that line open.


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