Modern Feminism-Good for Society?

Leg End Reject

Tell me how wrote: »

Neither should be tolerated. Full stop.



That is a leading question. What do you define as oppressed? That they have zero control over something? Thankfully, since the 8th was repealed I'm not thinking of any outright examples of oppression.

Is there a notable body or person saying that all women in Ireland are oppressed?

Can you only advocate for improvement when you are completely oppressed?

A real world example of why feminism is still relevant then. From a woman who has experienced it.

the_pen_turner

call it what ever you like opression, discrimination, bias against women, womens issues, etc.

can anyone give any examples of the above or similar that are happenening in this country today.

Tell me how

What was that post # for the problems Irish women face?

Tell me how wrote: »

It is splitting hairs in terms of literal meaning to some degree but they would argue that it is better to be on the receiving end of accusations of toxicity and abuse than to be on the receiving end of toxicity and abuse itself and again, that is not to say that no man suffers in such way, but that generally,

Wherein is the assumption that only men can apply toxicity and abuse.. Oh, you put in a disclaimer, but it's pretty obvious that it's only there as a side note. That's not an attack on you, but it's a pretty common viewpoint in society..

it seems that in many fields men still experience a position of natural authority and women seeking to get involved in that field receive pretty harsh judgement when doing so. Take responses to female commentators, referees etc recently which have made the news as an example.

Of course there will be. It takes time for change to extend to all areas of society. Look... I made the change from being a manager to being a teacher. I worked as kindergarden and primary school teacher abroad for a few years, returned to Ireland, looked for work, and got turned down almost everywhere. In all cases where I was turned down, a woman got the job, even though, there were other male candidates. There were far more female candidates though.. and as such, women dominated the schools in the area as teachers.

There are biases in most industries. It's not outright discrimination, and they will disappear over time, as more people apply for those positions.

But in most cases, (mainstream society and mainstream employment), there are enough laws and social pressure in place to guarantee women a fair chance at getting a job.

I think when you look around society and see many of the public figures, commentators, positions of authority with companies, elected officials, members of government etc, they are still predominantly men. So I don't think too many feminists/liberals would even feel they have embedded their beliefs to any great degree yet. Or if so, just what are these beliefs doing?

And who were these men raised by? Yup. Their mothers. I'm always amazed at the belief that women have no influence over their male children. I'm an egalitarian by choice, but many of my beliefs on equality come from my mother, my grandmother, and my sister. Being male doesn't exclude you from believing that women should be helped in society, especially if you view that society to be unfair.. now.. whether that perception is accurate or not is another matter.

Here's a funny little tidbit. I've never had a male manager/superior. In every job (Finance, management consulting, teacher, lecturer) my superiors were all female.

As for why we see so many men in those roles you mentioned... I just figure most women aren't interested in such positions. If they were... there's nothing stopping them from achieving it. It's like the claim about female CEOs and bosses. Why are these so few women in these positions? Ok... how many men failed to achieve those positions?

In terms of attacks on men as role models, can you be more specific? Are there any examples of this which you are thinking of?

Not off the top of my head. It was something from a few months ago.. the attack on fatherhood is more recent.

And this is something which I think men should work on in order to bring about change for their own benefit rather than simply being frustrated that women have been successful in doing so.

There's a difference between being frustrated that women have been successful in doing so.. and being frustrated for how you're treated as a result of that success.

As I said here already, I suspect that many women would also attend and contribute to such groups and voices if they felt it was a just cause. Think of all the women you know personally, sisters, cousins, colleagues, etc, do they strike you as wanting to have you suffer just for their enjoyment, society is partially made up women who have male people who they are close to who they also want to see being treated fairly and content.

Sure. They would. I can also think of dozens of women who would throw paint, and shout abuse at any man who would consider that women didn't deserve more attention, and that men shouldn't seek any degree of parity.

Firstly, every large movement started with 2 people having a conversation so just because there isn't large network now, doesn't mean there can't be.

Oh, the network is rather large. It's just not effective.

As for the bit in bold, where has this happened? I haven't heard any instance of it discussed in Irish media but again, if such a thing has happened, doesn't mean people should give in. Most media commentators in Irish media are still male and I would be surprised if they did not allow a representative to talk about such things happening.

These things aren't reported in the news/papers. I've attended a variety of meetings in Dublin, where there were disturbances, and demands for cancellations, and not a single report made the news. A friend of mine got a bloody head from a rock thrown, the Gardai shrugged off the incident, and no reporter ever tried to cover the story. Why? because it's simply not of interest to Irish people. "Men" (due to their gender) aren't victims. Ever.

There are people who still protest outside medical centers where abortions are being carried out but that doesn't stop pro-choice activists making their arguments. If some people don't want you to have a voice, as long as what you are saying is reasonable, then that alone will bring many people to look favorably on you or at least support your right to be heard.

Maybe, although, the three years I spent going to these meetings/events, and hearing the experiences of the organisers, has made me very cynical to such a claim.. and yes, many of these groups do protest over laws towards child custody, child supports, etc... and get absolutely nowhere.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

Link please.

No. Its a stupid request, and you know it.

Is this where you are getting your perception that feminist ideals are embedded in society. Would you take a subreddit on MGTOW as evidence that men are collectively rising up and pushing back against this?

Nope. I view the effects of feminism in the laws, and how society perceives men, and the encouragement of ideas such as male toxicity. Which I said previously, but you've decided to subvert into a different direction.

It's frequently common in undermining a womans argument before it has even been heard. No doubt some use it up front, but some men have ready made excuses they turn to also. Neither gender can be 100% absolved of this.

haha... like you sought to undermine mine by linking it to MGTOW, and reddit?

Nope. The reference to playing the victim card, is due to the extreme lack of responsibility shown for their own situations, with all blame being passed on elsewhere.

anewme

Leg End Reject wrote: »

Can you give any real world examples of how women are oppressed in Ireland today? Not references to posts and throw away comments here, but things that negatively affect our day to day lives.

I think you are losing focus on what the actual thread is about.its about the poster alleging modern feminism being negative and toxic.

I'm saying I dont see this at all.

Post 1 alleges :However, the modern variant just seems just so toxic and divisive for society.

I havent got a clue what this is?

How about you give real examples of toxic modern feminism as alleged here in this thread. The term modern feminism was described here as women wanting supremacy over men.

I've never once seen anyone behave like that here, or in real life. It seems to me a bit of a makey up persecution complex and just another woman bashing thread.

Tell me how

Leg End Reject wrote: »

A real world example of why feminism is still relevant then. From a woman who has experienced it.

I already gave two anecdotal examples of how my sisters were treated at work.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

No. Its a stupid request, and you know it.



Nope. I view the effects of feminism in the laws, and how society perceives men, and the encouragement of ideas such as male toxicity. Which I said previously, but you've decided to subvert into a different direction.



haha... like you sought to undermine mine by linking it to MGTOW, and reddit?

Nope. The reference to playing the victim card, is due to the extreme lack of responsibility shown for their own situations, with all blame being passed on elsewhere.

I mentioned MGTOW and Reddit after you specifically said about the views you are seeing on a feminist website. A website which you will not disclose for some reason.

Leg End Reject

anewme wrote: »

I think you are losing focus on what the actual thread is about.its about modern feminism.

How about you give real examples of modern feminism as alleged here in this thread? The term modern feminism was described here as women wanting supremacy over men.

I've never once seen anyone behave like that here, or in real life.

I couldn't tell you what modern feminism is in any great detail.

It has been pointed out that women have equality by some, and others have said that there is still gender inequality and feminism is still relevant.

I've explained why my opinion is that the former is true, but no one has given an opinion about why they think the latter is true.

I'm not talking about posts here because they have absolutely no impact on our real lives, but issues experienced in real life that highlight why feminism is still a valid and needed movement.

ETA: An example of toxic feminism is the introduction of gender quotas, women given positions based on being the best female candidate and men excluded. It's a practice that flies in the face of equality and is incredibly condescending to women as it implies women could never achieve these positions on their own merit.

Leg End Reject

Tell me how wrote: »

I already gave two anecdotal examples of how my sisters were treated at work.

By a condescending superior they should have called out.

Two personal anecdotes from your sisters do not indicate widespread misogyny/discrimination/inequality etc.

Tell me how

Leg End Reject wrote: »

By a condescending superior they should have called out.

Two personal anecdotes from your sisters do not indicate widespread misogyny/discrimination/inequality etc.

I think calling it out was referred to as inherent feminist victimhood or something like it.

Leg End Reject

Tell me how wrote: »

I think calling it out was referred to as inherent feminist victimhood or something like it.

Not by me.

If your sisters experienced that attitude it's up to them to accept it or call them out.

Some people still old fashioned views of gender roles and they should be challenged, but they're not indicative of a deep-rooted societal issue.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Leg End Reject wrote: »

A real world example of why feminism is still relevant then. From a woman who has experienced it.

Self-ID allowing males to be incarcerated in women’s prison right here in Ireland. Amongst the most vulnerable women in society are affected by that, not your middle class academics. Feminists of the old school very much care about this issue and should. The need for feminism is actually greater than it was a decade ago because of the erosion of safeguards like the above.

Leg End Reject

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Self-ID allowing males to be incarcerated in women’s prison right here in Ireland. Amongst the most vulnerable women in society are affected by that, not your middle class academics. Feminists of the old school very much care about this issue and should. The need for feminism is actually greater than it was a decade ago because of the erosion of safeguards like the above.

I'm not convinced that's an issue for feminism. There's been a lot of focus on transgender issues and the notion of gender n general, and new terms/labels have popped up.

Children are having gender realignment treatments before puberty when they're still too young to make decisions that will affect the rest of their lives.

I think these issues mean that we need to look at the push for political correctness at all costs, whilst ignoring logic, science and common sense.

anewme

Leg End Reject wrote: »

Not by me.

If your sisters experienced that attitude it's up to them to accept it or call them out.

Some people still old fashioned views of gender roles and they should be challenged, but they're not indicative of a deep-rooted societal issue.

It's not that easy and all I can say I'd that I agree with that poster.

I believe there is still work to be done and that there are still issues facing women.

That's not saying there are issues unique to men.

As regards modern feminism and supremacy that's just codology. I don't know what that is either.

I also feel that misogyny and misandry should not be just accepted.but you are one if those people or not.

Boards is irelands largest Community Forum and hate or bullying should always be tackled in my opinion.

Online activity and social media are part of our culture now. Reading hate against gay people today for example- people in same sex marriages are inferior to those in heterosexual marriages-? Just no. There are real people reading this and leaving it just stand without saying anything is as bad as liking it, but that's just me.

Mike Murdock

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Self-ID allowing males to be incarcerated in women’s prison right here in Ireland. Amongst the most vulnerable women in society are affected by that, not your middle class academics. Feminists of the old school very much care about this issue and should. The need for feminism is actually greater than it was a decade ago because of the erosion of safeguards like the above.

The target for Feminism should be to clean up its own house then, as this agenda is driven by elements of third/fourth-wave feminism.

Judith Butler being a prime example.

the_pen_turner

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Self-ID allowing males to be incarcerated in women’s prison right here in Ireland. Amongst the most vulnerable women in society are affected by that, not your middle class academics. Feminists of the old school very much care about this issue and should. The need for feminism is actually greater than it was a decade ago because of the erosion of safeguards like the above.

ok. first response . i can see that being an issue , but its not fair to only talk about the vulnerable women in there . there are lots of dangerous women in there. i doubt any of the women in there are in there when they shouldnt be .

its a trick situation to sort out. its double edged sword by allowing people to change their gender by simply deciding it. the reason these people are wanting to go into the womans prison is due to the more lenient nature of it

Leg End Reject

anewme wrote: »

It's not that easy and all I can say I'd that I agree with that poster.

I believe there is still work to be done and that there are still issues facing women.

What issues though? No one will answer and I'm starting to think I live in a weird utopia separate from the rest of the country.

Tell me how

Leg End Reject wrote: »

What issues though? No one will answer and I'm starting to think I live in a weird utopia separate from the rest of the country.

For the love of god, stop saying no one will answer when you have been given some examples and have responded to them.

You disagree that it's an issue, so be it, but suggesting no one will give you any examples of things where women still they are treated a particular way because of their gender is just not happening here.

Is that like some tactic to undermine the argument, to be able to say 'I asked people what the issue was, and no one could give an answer, I don't know, the country is fcuked' or something like that.

anewme

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Self-ID allowing males to be incarcerated in women’s prison right here in Ireland. Amongst the most vulnerable women in society are affected by that, not your middle class academics. Feminists of the old school very much care about this issue and should. The need for feminism is actually greater than it was a decade ago because of the erosion of safeguards like the above.

I’m not really sure what you mean here?

So in the absence of not wanting to appear stupid, are you talking about trans women?

anewme

Leg End Reject wrote: »

What issues though? No one will answer and I'm starting to think I live in a weird utopia separate from the rest of the country.

Well obviously I’m not going to comment personally in the interest of privacy and that is it.

We all live different lives in different situations.

I’ve said I agree with the other poster.

Leg End Reject

Tell me how wrote: »

For the love of god, stop saying no one will answer when you have been given some examples and have responded to them.

You disagree that it's an issue, so be it, but suggesting no one will give you any examples of things where women still they are treated a particular way because of their gender is just not happening here.

Is that like some tactic to undermine the argument, to be able to say 'I asked people what the issue was, and no one could give an answer, I don't know, the country is fcuked' or something like that.

2 condescending bosses, references to blue haired lesbians and the issue of men identifying as women to gain access to women's prisons.

Do they suggest a culture of inequality to you? The last one screams equality at all costs, or the optics of political correctness gone mad anyway.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Leg End Reject wrote: »

I'm not convinced that's an issue for feminism. There's been a lot of focus on transgender issues and the notion of gender n general, and new terms/labels have popped up.

Children are having gender realignment treatments before puberty when they're still too young to make decisions that will affect the rest of their lives.

I think these issues mean that we need to look at the push for political correctness at all costs, whilst ignoring logic, science and common sense.

Shocking!

The erosion of female spaces is right in the wheelhouse of feminism. There is of course the very fair argument that male spaces are being eroded and that men might want privacy from females too. That’s valid but what makes this a feminist issue is that the female spaces were carved out in recognition of the physical differences and offending patterns of males and females. The privacy issue is universal but all that other stuff is a true feminist issue.

I also outlined earlier in the thread in reply to one of your posts an incident where public health literature for a female health issue (that kills) was obfuscated in the last year here in Ireland in the name of inclusivity whilst no such thing happened to corresponding male health related public literature. Only because a small group of feminists kicked up a fuss was the literature changed back to include the word ‘woman’. 2020 was the year this happened.

I suspect no example anyone can give you will be good enough to be honest.

Tell me how

Leg End Reject wrote: »

2 condescending bosses, references to blue haired lesbians and the issue of men identifying as women to gain access to women's prisons.

Do they suggest a culture of inequality to you? The last one screams equality at all costs, or the optics of political correctness gone mad anyway.

And the treatment of various womens sports teams.

At least you can stop with that nonsense of there being no issues mentioned now.

Now, you are the one using the term 'culture of inequality', is that what is needed? Wide ranging and complete domination in order to advocate for any issue.

Are there specific claims of this culture of inequality which have been used to suggest the person saying it is talking Irish society in general which we know about or is it like the feminist credo, more of a mythical claim used to undermine any advocacy than a real life component.

anewme

Tell me how wrote: »

Are there specific claims of this culture of inequality which have been used to suggest the person saying it is talking Irish society in general which we know about or is it like the feminist credo,

What is feminist credo?

Tell me how

anewme wrote: »

What is feminist credo?

No idea, Wibbs mentioned it earlier on thread.

the_pen_turner

if the those are the worste issues facing women in this country this year then its fair to say that almost all womens issues have been sorted out. those issues are fairly minor compared to the issue in the past like right not to be raped, right to see your kids, right to have any job you want, right to fair education, right to not the ****e bet out of you by your partner.

the sad thing is that men dont have those latter rights

Leg End Reject

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Shocking!

The erosion of female spaces is right in the wheelhouse of feminism. There is of course the very fair argument that male spaces are being eroded and that men might want privacy from females too. That’s valid but what makes this a feminist issue is that the female spaces were carved out in recognition of the physical differences and offending patterns of males and females. The privacy issue is universal but all that other stuff is a true feminist issue.

I also outlined earlier in the thread in reply to one of your posts an incident where public health literature for a female health issue (that kills) was obfuscated in the last year here in Ireland in the name of inclusivity whilst no such thing happened to corresponding male health related public literature. Only because a small group of feminists kicked up a fuss was the literature changed back to include the word ‘woman’. 2020 was the year this happened.

I suspect no example anyone can give you will be good enough to be honest.

I presume the man identified as a woman as women's prisons are seen as easier? If I was convicted of a crime and given a prison sentence I could self identify as a man and be sent to a man's prison. Now obviously I wouldn't, because I know it wouldn't be an easier place to be. I still think this is a political correctness issue though. I could wake up in the morning and decide I'm a unicorn, but I still wouldn't have a horn on my forehead, so this kind of nonsense should never be entertained in the justice system.

I have heard of medical literature being changed to appease political correctness too. The example I heard was the word "women" being changed to "people who breastfeed" or "people who menstruate". Your example is more serious, and it shouldn't be tolerated. It's still within the realms of political correctness, but it is one area where feminism/women will force a change.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

I mentioned MGTOW and Reddit after you specifically said about the views you are seeing on a feminist website. A website which you will not disclose for some reason.

Read again what I wrote originally. Not what you think I wrote.

anewme

Tell me how wrote: »

No idea, Wibbs mentioned it earlier on thread.

That’s where it gets confusing.

Gobbledygook and no one wants to be the dodo who asks what is that?

Tell me how

the_pen_turner wrote: »

if the those are the worste issues facing women in this country this year then its fair to say that almost all womens issues have been sorted out. those issues are fairly minor compared to the issue in the past like right not to be raped, right to see your kids, right to have any job you want, right to fair education, right to not the ****e bet out of you by your partner.

the sad thing is that men dont have those latter rights

Men don't have the right to have any job, fair education or not to suffer physical assault? Seriously?

And as for issues which women face, people advocating for their right to advocate for improvement where they feel it is necessary is also why previous issues they faced have been sorted.