Modern Feminism-Good for Society?

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

Read again what I wrote originally. Not what you think I wrote.

This is what you wrote;

I've read a fair few feminist websites

I asked which ones and you declined to answer.

anewme

Leg End Reject wrote: »

I have heard of medical literature being changed to appease political correctness too. The example I heard was the word "women" being changed to "people who breastfeed" or "people who menstruate". Your example is more serious, and it shouldn't be tolerated. It's still within the realms of political correctness, but it is one area where feminism/women will force a change.

Have read about the term chest feed as opposed to breast feed to be used when medical staff are dealing with trans people.

Big deal was made of it, when it was only to be used in individual situations.

Couldn’t see anyone having an issue with that.

Leg End Reject

Tell me how wrote: »

And the treatment of various womens sports teams.

At least you can stop with that nonsense of there being no issues mentioned now.

Now, you are the one using the term 'culture of inequality', is that what is needed? Wide ranging and complete domination in order to advocate for any issue.

Are there specific claims of this culture of inequality which have been used to suggest the person saying it is talking Irish society in general which we know about or is it like the feminist credo, more of a mythical claim used to undermine any advocacy than a real life component.

Women's sport is less popular and it was GAA that was mentioned. It was also pointed out that they was a different governing body for women's sport, dominated by women. I've no interest in sport so can't really comment beyond it being less of a money spinner.

I asked did the issues mentioned indicate there was a disparity in how women are treated.

I assumed we were talking about Ireland, given we're posting on an Irish forum and the only international issue mentioned was the Nigerian kidnapping. Your own sporting reference is Irish too.

Now, if we're talking about an international level let's talk about India, the Middle East etc.

the_pen_turner

Tell me how wrote: »

Men don't have the right to have any job, fair education or not to suffer physical assault? Seriously?

And as for issues which women face, people advocating for their right to advocate for improvement where they feel it is necessary is also why previous issues they faced have been sorted.

there are lots of jobs where men are not allowed to apply for
girls are given higher grades for the same work
look at the domestic violence situation. (which is what i was referencing) men are the ones arrested even when they are the victim. no shelters, no support, no funding largly and statistically more likely to be victims than women.


im well aware of all the great work done in the past to fix some of the shocking discrimination women faced in the past. now it should be mens turn to fix the discrimination we face

Leg End Reject

anewme wrote: »

That’s where it gets confusing.

Gobbledygook and no one wants to be the dodo who asks what is that?

Well "Credo" refers to a belief system, so a feminist credo is the beliefs or ethos of feminists.

Christ, I feel like a woman mansplaining! Let this lockdown end so I can go out and get locked instead.

Tell me how

Leg End Reject wrote: »

Women's sport is less popular and it was GAA that was mentioned. It was also pointed out that they was a different governing body for women's sport, dominated by women. I've no interest in sport so can't really comment beyond it being less of a money spinner.

I asked did the issues mentioned indicate there was a disparity in how women are treated.

I assumed we were talking about Ireland, given we're posting on an Irish forum and the only international issue mentioned was the Nigerian kidnapping. Your own sporting reference is Irish too.

Now, if we're talking about an international level let's talk about India, the Middle East etc.

Womens senior soccer team had to take off their tracksuits in the toilets of Dublin airport so that an under 17 team could use them. They were gifted footballs at an international competition, the footballs were taken from them and given to the mens team. Neither incident a case for the UN, but evidence that there is difference in how groups are treated.

What is it you want to say about India and the middle East? Do you think that modern feminism is no good for their societies?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Shocking!

The erosion of female spaces is right in the wheelhouse of feminism. There is of course the very fair argument that male spaces are being eroded and that men might want privacy from females too. That’s valid but what makes this a feminist issue is that the female spaces were carved out in recognition of the physical differences and offending patterns of males and females. The privacy issue is universal but all that other stuff is a true feminist issue.

https://quillette.com/2019/08/01/how-feminism-paved-the-way-for-transgenderism/

"Let us list the major players in Britain. Former Prime Minister Theresa May announced that “being trans is not a mental illness.” “As an ardent, passionate feminist,” Nicola Sturgeon, First Minister of Scotland, wants to eliminate sex segregation. Conservative MP Maria Miller headed the Committee for Women and Equalities, a select committee of the House of Commons, which proposed reforming the Gender Recognition Act to make it easier for people to change their legal sex; she derided critics of this proposal as “women who purport to be feminists.” Dawn Butler, Shadow Minister for Women and Equalities in the Labour Party, insists that “trans women are women” and arranged for them to enter the party’s all-women’s shortlists for parliamentary seats. Ruth Hunt transformed Stonewall from a charity that campaigned for homosexual rights to one devoted to transgender rights, even at the expense of lesbians. Mermaids, which advocates for the transgendering of children, is run by Susie Green. Polly Carmichael, director of the NHS Gender Identity Development Service, lowered the age at which puberty-blocking drugs could be administered to children who identify as trans—now disproportionately girls. Katharine Viner is chief executive of the Guardian newspaper which has championed the transgender cause for many years."

"Virtually the entire feminist establishment has embraced transgenderism, from celebrated feminist Members of Parliament like Jess Phillips (Labour Party) and Mhairi Black (Scottish National Party) to organizations like the Fawcett Society, Engender (the feminist group funded by the Scottish government), the Women’s Equality Party, and Women’s Aid. Transgender doctrines are enforced by the burgeoning diversity-industrial complex which was created by feminists and is disproportionately staffed by women. It was a woman employed as a university Equality Projects Officer who started a petition to transfer a violent transwoman to a women’s prison; the petition was so successful that it persuaded the government to divide prisons by gender identity rather than sex. In universities, transgender doctrine is promoted by feminist academics like Sally Hines and Alison Phipps. Because radical feminism has almost disappeared from universities, academic opponents of transgenderism—now labelled as “gender-critical”—are, for the most part, women whose scholarship isn’t directly linked to contemporary feminism. Kathleen Stock, for example, worked on the philosophy of aesthetics. But there are some gender-critical voices within the feminist establishment. Joanna Cherry (Scottish National Party) is one of only two Members of Parliament who publicly question transgender orthodoxy. Karen Ingala Smith’s charity NiA runs women’s shelters in the old-fashioned sense, restricted to females. Such exceptions are rare."

later

"My argument, in short, is that since the 1970s feminists have been sawing off the branch on which they perched. By denying biological differences they inadvertently eroded the distinction between male and female, which now licenses a social movement that undermines the interests of women and girls. Radical feminists were relatively immune because they had a much greater appreciation of sexual differences"

Whole opinion piece is worth a read.. for everyone here thinking about feminism, but also this claim about feminism being needed due to the trans debate... since feminism and feminists sought many of these "rights" for Transgendered people. While it's focused on trans and feminists, anyone with a degree of balance can see the range of negative effects that feminism has inadvertently brought about in society, which is part of the problem really, since there's little consideration of the after-effects of such initiatives, or even the philosophy that is created/promoted by these theorists. The promotion of male Toxicity is similar because it has the capability of spreading in scope far beyond the original theories, and that can be seen by it's acceptance into common speech within the media.

Tell me how

the_pen_turner wrote: »

there are lots of jobs where men are not allowed to apply for
girls are given higher grades for the same work
look at the domestic violence situation. (which is what i was referencing) men are the ones arrested even when they are the victim. no shelters, no support, no funding largly and statistically more likely to be victims than women.


im well aware of all the great work done in the past to fix some of the shocking discrimination women faced in the past. now it should be mens turn to fix the discrimination we face

Can you give evidence of the 'lots of jobs where men are not allowed to apply for and girls been given higher grades for the same work.

Domestic violence perceptions and services would be an area I think men should focus on if they wish to see change in relation to a more equal treatment or assumption of fault.

Leg End Reject

anewme wrote: »

Have read about the term chest feed as opposed to breast feed to be used when medical staff are dealing with trans people.

Big deal was made of it, when it was only to be used in individual situations.

Couldn’t see anyone having an issue with that.

If you have breasts and lactate it's breastfeeding. You can identify as a hoola hoop if you want, but it's still breastfeeding.

If a man identified as a woman and was diagnosed with a male specific cancer - prostate, testicular or penile - what mental gymnastics would be used to describe that? A vague pelvic cancer diagnosis?

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

I asked which ones and you declined to answer.

Yup. I did.

the_pen_turner

Tell me how wrote: »

Womens senior soccer team had to take off their tracksuits in the toilets of Dublin airport so that an under 17 team could use them. They were gifted footballs at an international competition, the footballs were taken from them and given to the mens team. Neither incident a case for the UN, but evidence that there is difference in how groups are treated.

What is it you want to say about India and the middle East? Do you think that modern feminism is no good for their societies?

that is a disgrace though.
you can understand a local club not having the money but the national team when the fat cats are earing millions

Leg End Reject

Tell me how wrote: »

Womens senior soccer team had to take off their tracksuits in the toilets of Dublin airport so that an under 17 team could use them. They were gifted footballs at an international competition, the footballs were taken from them and given to the mens team. Neither incident a case for the UN, but evidence that there is difference in how groups are treated.

What is it you want to say about India and the middle East? Do you think that modern feminism is no good for their societies?

Yes, women's sport is less popular. Money talks, so that's why they're treated differently. A financial rather than gender divide.

There are countries where women are second class systems or viewed as property. Feminism is desperately needed there, as it was here in the past.

the_pen_turner

Tell me how wrote: »

Can you give evidence of the 'lots of jobs where men are not allowed to apply for and girls been given higher grades for the same work.

Domestic violence perceptions and services would be an area I think men should focus on if they wish to see change in relation to a more equal treatment or assumption of fault.

pop over to the men rights thread. its documented there.

99nsr125

Tell me how wrote: »

And the treatment of various womens sports teams.

At least you can stop with that nonsense of there being no issues mentioned now.

Now, you are the one using the term 'culture of inequality', is that what is needed? Wide ranging and complete domination in order to advocate for any issue.

Are there specific claims of this culture of inequality which have been used to suggest the person saying it is talking Irish society in general which we know about or is it like the feminist credo, more of a mythical claim used to undermine any advocacy than a real life component.

An actual example please

Not a he said that she said that she said nonsense

Tell me how

99nsr125 wrote: »

An actual example please

Not a he said that she said that she said nonsense

Try reading the thread.

Tell me how

the_pen_turner wrote: »

pop over to the men rights thread. its documented there.

How about a link, given you know where they are.

joe40

Just reading through the last few pages and a wee bit drunk but this is a reasonable debate. Some good points from both sides ( with some plonkers of course)

For me there are issues with feminism that can be silly or too quick to brand all men as the enemy but they are in the minority.

Ultimately the socially acceptable norms of modern society, specifically Ireland, are the the wishes of the society. There is no outside force pushing a particular narrative. That doesn't mean people should not fight their own corner as they see it.
I just hate this idea that there is some external force whether that be modern feminism or mainstream media that is forcing us all to live a certain way.

We, collectively as a society choose how we live.

For me Ireland in 2021 is pretty good. I don't accept there is some structural oppression suffered by males or females.
There are issues unique to both genders which need to be sorted. Why does this have to be a zero sum game?

Education disadvantage in males is an issue let's work on that.
Sexual violence against women is still a major issue let's work on that.

To answer the OP for me modern feminism is not a problem in society, it is women highlighting issues affecting them, it is not men hating. ( In instances where it is *uck that)

99nsr125

Tell me how wrote: »

Try reading the thread.

I am and that is at least the third time you've avoided answering.

Which as I said already is a telling answer in itself.

...Ghost...

Feminism is like the corona virus. The first wave spread around the world and got our attention. It showed us we all needed to work together to make things better.

Then we got the second, third and now the fourth wave. With these waves came new variants with some being very hostile and fast to spread. It took Christmas, Paddies Day and even our jobs. Now most of us have had it with corona and hate what it's doing to society, making people sick, limiting our freedom and taking lives.

Modern Feminism. In need of a vaccine.

99nsr125

Stephanie33 wrote: »

Women are often faced with distain, indifference and understanding without action when they highlight issues which silences them.

Can you give an example please

the_pen_turner

Tell me how wrote: »

How about a link, given you know where they are.

im sure you know where it is too.
its long thread and will take time

Leg End Reject

Stephanie33 wrote: »

No. Its personal.

:pac:

the_pen_turner

Stephanie33 wrote: »

Women are often faced with distain, indifference and understanding without action when they highlight issues which silences them.

thats a very strange statment. it you asked which gender it applied to i would say men.

anewme

Leg End Reject wrote: »

If you have breasts and lactate it's breastfeeding. You can identify as a hoola hoop if you want, but it's still breastfeeding.

If a man identified as a woman and was diagnosed with a male specific cancer - prostate, testicular or penile - what mental gymnastics would be used to describe that? A vague pelvic cancer diagnosis?

But if medical staff were dealing with me they referenced breast feeding and if they were dealing with a trans person they referenced chest feeding.

Why would I be offended what term is used to deal with another person in their individual situation.?

it’s just another person making their way.

Rodin

The problem with modern feminism is that nobody really knows what it is.

If asked if I am a feminist Id be looking for a definition first.

Leg End Reject

anewme wrote: »

But if medical staff were dealing with me they referenced breast feeding and if they were dealing with a trans person they referenced chest feeding.

Why would I be offended what term is used to deal with another person in their individual situation.?

it’s just another person making their way.

It is another person making their way, but it's still breastfeeding.

I'd imagine a lot of medical professionals internally roll their eyes when they say chestfeeding, but are following all guidelines.

Leg End Reject

Stephanie33 wrote: »

Why'd you think that's funny?

It's personal.

the_pen_turner

Stephanie33 wrote: »

Why is that you think that?

because that is the way mens rights are treated.
a lot dont care,
a lot dont take mens issues seriously
lot of those that do seem to care dont do anything to create change or quickly move onto the next thing that crops up.

99nsr125

99nsr125 wrote: »

Can you give an example please

The thread is asking whether feminism is good or bad for society.

People in the thread have said that they believe they need/benefit from/support feminism. So that's evidence that it's good for a section of society at least.

The only valid argument against this is to point out a way in which it's hurting someone (which one person has, though I disagree with their logic, but that's not relevant to my response to you). But anyway, your line of questioning is pointless since a lack of evidence to support feminism being good doesn't in any way prove that it's bad. Trying to scrutinise the people saying it's good, doesn't prove it's bad.

Asking for data, examples, proof, asking feminists what their qualifications are, what their life experience is, is a classic way of trying to diminish women's voices. It should be obvious why people are hesitant to share personal information on this thread.

Tell me how

...Ghost... wrote: »

Feminism is like the corona virus. The first wave spread around the world and got our attention. It showed us we all needed to work together to make things better.

Then we got the second, third and now the fourth wave. With these waves came new variants with some being very hostile and fast to spread. It took Christmas, Paddies Day and even our jobs. Now most of us have had it with corona and hate what it's doing to society, making people sick, limiting our freedom and taking lives.

Modern Feminism. In need of a vaccine.

This sounds like an intro to a Tucker Carlson monologue, but let's explore it.

Can you explain what it is about feminism in Ireland today is making people sick, limiting our freedom and taking lives.

Or maybe I extracted the incorrect reference from your analogy, what is it about feminism in Ireland in 2021 which is impacting society negatively in such a way it is appropriate to compare it to a pandemic. Please give specific examples, which should not be a problem, if it is as bad as you suggest.