Modern Feminism-Good for Society?

the_pen_turner

anewme wrote: »

And I know kids taken from their beds to walk the streets in the small hours when the doors were kicked in.

There are examples both sides. One should not trump the other.

but sadly the plith of the female victims does trump that of the male victims

Silentcorner

anewme wrote: »

And I know kids taken from their beds to walk the streets in the small hours when the doors were kicked in.

There are examples both sides. One should not trump the other.

I think you will find we all agree on that...apart from the feminists in the industry who have done the exact opposite...

Wibbs

anewme wrote: »

I'd say that outlook is part of the reason why mens rights groups dont get traction. It's too divisive.

Thst type of pitch would alienate a lot of people.

And yet feminist talk of toxic masculinity doesn't?

anewme

Doctor Roast wrote: »

I have a feeling that comment cut through you...

Not sure what you mean?

It's an observation in general and not just specific to mens rights.

To get support on any topic, it has to be approached to bring improvement.

I'd say that's pretty basic stuff.

Join a group to make improvements. YES!
Join a group to make dis improvements for others. Nah, there are not the same number who would be interested as theres no upshot. Negativity is draining.

anewme

Wibbs wrote: »

And yet feminist talk of toxic masculinity doesn't?

The only time I've heard toxic masculinity mentioned or discussed in real life was in respect of some ad Gilette brought out.

Mad_maxx

anewme wrote: »

And there you have it. Three posts in a row just trying to stir.

Even quoting a banned troll.

Earlier there was a discussion as to why mens rights are not as organised as women's.

There are people who want to make it better for men and then there are others more concerned that they are not allowed spew racism and hate and go round abusing people.Instead of helping their side they cause drama and chaos then the thread gets distracted and the real points lost.

Like you posting here traveller bashing. Thsts not helping mens rights. It's just promoting bigotry, Yet, I must be power hungry or woke for highlighting this.woke, one of those buzzwords dished out by people threatened by equality for others..

If you can't post within the charter or without abusing others, then maybe you need to look at your own posting style and stick within the charter.

i said people like you want travellers to be immune from criticism

sacred cows

thats not bashing

Eric Cartman

anewme wrote: »

The only time I've heard toxic masculinity mentioned or discussed in real life was in respect of some ad Gilette brought out.

Google ‘toxic masculinity irish times’ and see how many articles that paper has published using the term. I stopped at page 3 of google and every single link was to a different article before that

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Technology levels the paying field. So women pilots can work, pushing a button in a portacabin in Nevada while controlling a drone in Syria could be done by anyone, so you can have more women in war now than in the past.

At the same time, there's no expectation for a 50/50 split between males/females enlisted in the army, because there's the automatic acceptance that more men would be interested in such a life than women. Whereas when you look at other (less dangerous, or less physical) work such as management, there's a greater expectation (even demand) for a 50/50 (irrespective of whether there is interest by women), and whenever that point is reached, typically, there remains a lack of concern when women outnumber the men.

I wonder will conscription be applied equally to both men and women?

One thing worth considering regarding the military. I was watching some vids on the US marines training period, similar to the Seals Hell week, and they've introduced women into the mix. The training regime, the focus of the period, and the manner of the instructors has changed from when it was only men, vs where the groups are integrated (although the integration is limited in many ways). But it boils down to a less effective training regime for the military overall, because they need to ensure that adequate numbers of women pass the requirements. Still a difficult test, but nothing as hard as when it was solely about men passing.

Which is what we tend to see elsewhere in the RL, where women and men are competing for jobs. Women are supposedly equal to men, but the system favored men, so it needed to be changed to increase the numbers of women who applied. In most instances, the focus is less on providing equality, but to create systems that favor women...

Now, I don't know if the previous systems favored men. I suppose they did, but, when you're talking about mental abilities/skills, educational capabilities, etc then there's less scope to exclude women.. unless it's an obvious piece of policy, which is why they were demolished by the civil rights movements.. although over time, we're see such policies being reintroduced to favor women over men. Which can be seen with the pushing of quotas, the push to promote women in particular fields, financial supports to companies who hire women...

anewme

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Google ‘toxic masculinity irish times’ and see how many articles that paper has published using the term. I stopped at page 3 of google and every single link was to a different article before that

I looked it up and got a young peoples mental health page. So it's very basic at explaining it, but clear.

anewme

anewme wrote: »

I looked it up and got a young peoples mental health page. So it's very basic at explaining it, but clear.

really?

"
Kathy Sheridan: Gillette's toxic masculinity ad cuts close to the ...

Una Mullaly: Toxic masculinity the common thread in ...

The rise of a toxic male separatist movement who hate women

Patrick Freyne: Masculinity in crisis? It's more of an opportunity

Gareth Thomas: toxic masculinity in the world of work

'Toxic masculinity': is the term obligatory? - The Irish Times

'Toxic masculinity' and the far-right - The Irish Times"

first 7 results on the search. Even just relating to articles for the year, I got similar articles.

anewme

Deleted User wrote: »

really?

"
Kathy Sheridan: Gillette's toxic masculinity ad cuts close to the ...

Una Mullaly: Toxic masculinity the common thread in ...

The rise of a toxic male separatist movement who hate women

Patrick Freyne: Masculinity in crisis? It's more of an opportunity

Gareth Thomas: toxic masculinity in the world of work

'Toxic masculinity': is the term obligatory? - The Irish Times

'Toxic masculinity' and the far-right - The Irish Times"

first 7 results on the search.

Google what is toxic masculinity ireland and what I'm referencing comes out top. It explained it fine though.

CtevenSrowder

anewme wrote: »

I looked it up and got a young peoples mental health page. So it's very basic at explaining it, but clear.

That's even worse. Linking 'toxic masculinity' and poor mental health. Here is what EC was talking about, some results:

'The rise of a toxic male separatist movement who hate women'
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/the-rise-of-a-toxic-male-separatist-movement-who-hate-women-1.4339250

'Kathy Sheridan: Gillette’s toxic masculinity ad cuts close to the bone'
A noxious, belligerent, misogynistic streak has leached into every social and political interaction

How about that for a sub-heading..'every social and political interaction':rolleyes:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/kathy-sheridan-gillette-s-toxic-masculinity-ad-cuts-close-to-the-bone-1.3766818

'Una Mullaly: Toxic masculinity the common thread in American hate'
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/una-mullaly-toxic-masculinity-the-common-thread-in-american-hate-1.3190602

Una bleeding Mullaly..Christ

4th link down but finally a bit of sense
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/toxic-masculinity-and-the-far-right-1.3193507

Toxic Masculinity in the workplace? Well obviously, since it's seemingly leached into 'every..social interaction'
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/work/gareth-thomas-toxic-masculinity-in-the-world-of-work-1.3713483?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fbusiness%2Fwork%2Fgareth-thomas-toxic-masculinity-in-the-world-of-work-1.3713483

Can we get any more ridiculous? Ofcourse we can:

'Love Island: Maura Higgins from Longford gives two fingers to toxic masculinity'
https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/love-island-maura-higgins-from-longford-gives-two-fingers-to-toxic-masculinity-1.3938068?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fculture%2Ftv-radio-web%2Flove-island-maura-higgins-from-longford-gives-two-fingers-to-toxic-masculinity-1.3938068

Etc etc. You get the picture.

Coybig_

Tell me how wrote: »

Did you really just type these two sentences one after the other?

That aside, just 2 months ago, one of the womens All Ireland semi-finals had to be moved because a mens team wanted the venue for a training session.

What a disgusting, blatant misrepresentation of the situation.

The ladies football game had a venue and a date in Semple Stadium which they decided to change due to wanting to accommodate a few dual players.

As a result of wanting to change the date and complications which arose out of this, they went to Limerick GAA and asked could they use the Gaelic Grounds.

Limerick informed the LGFA that they would require the use of the ground for the Senior Hurlers, but if the senior hurlers did not qualify for the All Ireland final, then the women's game could be played there as the mens team would have had no use.

Knowing this, and knowing that Limerick were likely to win the Semi Final (as bookies favourites), the LGFA decided to publically announce the game in the Gaelic Grounds anyway.

So the game wasn't moved because a mens team wanted it for a training session. It was always intended to be used for that purpose, and the women were told they could have it if the men didnt qualify for the final. The men did qualify, the LGFA were spectacularly in the wrong but people like yourself will try to paint this as some horrible disrespect to women.

anewme

Deleted User wrote: »

really?
.

Yes, really, do the search yourself if you dont believe me.

Eric Cartman

anewme wrote: »

Google what is toxic masculinity ireland and what I'm referencing comes out top. It explained it fine though.

So i said “google toxic masculinity irish times” and you googled “toxic masculinity ireland” and then posted suggesting the results i got were not accurate...

Also linking the boogeyman of ‘toxic masculinity’ to mental health is dangerous and not something we should be suggesting to our youth

CtevenSrowder

anewme wrote: »

Google what is toxic masculinity ireland and what I'm referencing comes out top. It explained it fine though.

Is this what you are referring to? From spunout.ie

‘Toxic masculinity’ is used to describe how certain masculine traits cause harm to men themselves and are also harmful to women and others. Toxic masculinity can also assume all men are straight and cisgender, and suggests that this is the way they should be - which of course is not true. However, it is important to note that gay and trans men can also have toxically masculine traits.

Masculine traits that are considered ‘toxic’ include:

Using or threatening violence

Can be done by women

Controlling others

Can be done by women

Acting aggressively

Can be done by women

Suppressing emotions

Can be done by women, and isn't always a bad thing that it's made out to be.

Trying to appear ‘tough’

Why is that toxic? Can also be done by women anyhow.

Treating sex as a competition

Ooh maybe we've got one.

Feeling entitled to sex from others

What percentage of western men think this? I'd say less then .1%. Can also be felt by women.

Using power over women, ‘weaker’ men, and marginalised groups

Can also be done by women.


So in conclusion, a heap of utter ****e. Funny how there is no list of toxic femininity traits. I wonder why!

anewme

anewme wrote: »

Yes, really, do the search yourself if you dont believe me.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Google ‘toxic masculinity irish times’ and see how many articles that paper has published using the term. I stopped at page 3 of google and every single link was to a different article before that

I did:

klaz wrote:

really?

"
Kathy Sheridan: Gillette's toxic masculinity ad cuts close to the ...

Una Mullaly: Toxic masculinity the common thread in ...

The rise of a toxic male separatist movement who hate women

Patrick Freyne: Masculinity in crisis? It's more of an opportunity

Gareth Thomas: toxic masculinity in the world of work

'Toxic masculinity': is the term obligatory? - The Irish Times

'Toxic masculinity' and the far-right - The Irish Times"

first 7 results on the search. Even just relating to articles for the year, I got similar articles.

The difference being that you didn't do what he asked you to do, but seemed to suggest that you had... hence my surprise at the difference in results.

anewme

Eric Cartman wrote: »

So i said “google toxic masculinity irish times” and you googled “toxic masculinity ireland” and then posted suggesting the results i got were not accurate...

Also linking the boogeyman of ‘toxic masculinity’ to mental health is dangerous and not something we should be suggesting to our youth

I wanted to know what toxic masculinity was in Ireland and that is the term I used to search it.

Whether it's in the Irish times or not, surely it's the same thing.?

The website described it in layman's terms, so that's good enough for me.

anewme

Deleted User wrote: »

I did:



The difference being that you didn't do what he asked you to do, but seemed to suggest that you had... hence my surprise at the difference in results.

Right. I might not have been clear. I wanted to know what it was in Ireland so I searched that.

But the definition should be the same, no?

All of those articles are for people who already seem to know what it is and discuss it.

So are you saying for clarity, it is or is not an issue related to the topic here? What's the point around it?

the_pen_turner

anewme wrote: »

Right. I might not have been clear. I wanted to know what it was in Ireland so I searched that.

But the definition should be the same, no?

All of those articles are for people who already seem to know what it is and discuss it.

So are you saying for clarity, it is or is not an issue related to the topic here? What's the point around it?

the point isnt what the definition is but rather that the term is being used at all.
its very loaded and used soley to make men look bad.

you are showing why modern femanism is so horrible. you wont answer the points raised but deflect onto someother point and try to use that to change the subject.

anewme

the_pen_turner wrote: »

the point isnt what the definition is but rather that the term is being used at all.
its very loaded and used soley to make men look bad.

you are showing why modern femanism is so horrible. you wont answer the points raised but deflect onto someother point and try to use that to change the subject.

Ok, so men think its men bashing for the sake of it basically. A makey up term? Same as I'd see woke, woke clergy, etc?

If there was the same basic definition of what is modern feminism is id read that too.

CtevenSrowder

anewme wrote: »

Ok, so men think its men bashing for the sake of it basically. Same as I'd see woke etc?

If there was the same basic definition of what is modern feminism is id read that too.

No, plenty of women think it is too. There is a link to a female written letter sent to the Irish times in my post with all the IT links for example.

the_pen_turner

anewme wrote: »

Ok, so men think its men bashing for the sake of it basically. A made up term? Same as I'd see woke, woke clergy, etc?

If there was the same basic definition of what is modern feminism is id read that too.

but it is a madeup term with the sole purpose of bashing men.
there are some truths to it such as men not talking about our feelings etc and that hurts us


some definitions of modern femanism

Feminism, the belief in social, economic, and political equality of the sexes

The belief and theory that everyone deserves equal and equitable treatment and opportunity regardless of gender, sexuality, sex, race, religion, disability, etc.

Feminism is a range of social movements, political movements, and ideologies that aim to define and establish the political, economic, personal, and social equality of the sexes.[a][2][3][4][5] Feminism incorporates the position that societies prioritize the male point of view, and that women are treated unjustly within those societies.[6] Efforts to change that include fighting against gender stereotypes and establishing educational, professional, and interpersonal opportunities and outcomes for women that are equal to those for men.


i think its fair to say that none of that rings true on the ground from an equality point of view

anewme

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

No, plenty of women think it is too. There is a link to a female written letter sent to the Irish times in my post with all the IT links for example.

Ok will have a read later and see if I think its another makey up buzzword.

I do remember people giving out about that ad saying they were never using gilette again. That ad being very patronising.

the purple tin

anewme wrote: »

Woke clergy? Ahh would you ever stop with the embarassing buzzwords.

Woke, snowflake, Karen...all terms that only reflect on the person using them. Now we have woke clergy.

I've never heard people actually using terms like that in real life, they'd be laughed out of it.

Woke clergy? Far from woke clergy anyone round here was raised.

But it was third-wave feminists that brought the term 'woke' into the mainstream. Hardly anyone had ever heard of it until they started talking about woke baes and stuff.
They have backed off on using it this last couple of years though.

CtevenSrowder

anewme wrote: »

Ok will have a read later and see if I think its another makey up buzzword.

Why, you have the definition from spunout.ie?

I've listed how virtually all of the supposed 'toxic masculine' traits can be exhibited by women just as much and some even more so than men, making a mockery of the terminology.

If you need to read the letter than here it is, as it's quite pertinent and makes some good points:

A chara, – Many men are offended by Una Mullally’s linking of the Charlottesville rally to “toxic masculinity” (Opinion & Analysis, August 18th). I think it is important that women are also outspoken in opposition to this type of dangerous and divisive language.

Would The Irish Times have published an article blaming IS terrorist attacks on “toxic Islam”?

Would an article linking the abuse perpetrated by some nuns to “toxic femininity” be acceptable? I think not.

Most of those attending the rally were men, but that is not to say that some women do not hold the same racist views. Also, these men did not come out of a vacuum. How many of them were reared in homes headed up by racist and bigoted women?

What about the “masculinity” of the majority of men who oppose these views?

There is no doubt that misogyny still exists and that women have to continue to oppose sexism in its many guises; however, a term such as “toxic masculinity” is offensive and sexist.

The article correctly demonstrates how the “alt-right” uses reasonable-sounding terminology to legitimise extreme views and cautions against absentmindedly adopting the same language.

However. this works both ways – the language used by women in the feminist cause is being watched very carefully by those who want to label feminists as just men-haters.

Words matter, and Una Mullally is in danger of feeding the trolls with hers. – Is mise,

KAY CHALMERS,

Douglas,

Cork.

EmmetSpiceland

I always thought that “toxic masculinity” stemmed from lads being overly, or hyper, masculine but it, nearly, always seems to come from the guys who, in the real world, wouldn’t be seen as very masculine at all.

These types are the same ones who’d complain online about it “not being a real thing”. Overweight lads with ruddy cheeks and strong, negative, views of women or scrawny guys with glasses moaning incessantly about immigrants.

Thankfully these “types” are, mostly, confined to the online world and things seem to moving in the right direction in real life. Do I think modern feminism is good for society? Most certainly but while there has been a lot done there is, still, a lot more to do.

CtevenSrowder

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

I always thought that “toxic masculinity” stemmed from lads being overly, or hyper, masculine but it, nearly, always seems to come from the guys who, in the real world, wouldn’t be seen as very masculine at all.

These types are the same ones who’d complain online about it “not being a real thing”. Overweight lads with ruddy cheeks and strong, negative, views of women or scrawny guys with glasses moaning incessantly about immigrants.

Thankfully these “types” are, mostly, confined to the online world and things seem to moving in the right direction in real life. Do I think modern feminism is good for society? Most certainly but while there has been a lot done there is, still, a lot more to do.

I wonder will anewme be as outraged with your stereotypes as she was with the blue haired feminist one?

What's the toxic feminine stereotype?

EmmetSpiceland

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

These types are the same ones who’d complain online about it “not being a real thing”. Overweight lads with ruddy cheeks and strong, negative, views of women or scrawny guys with glasses moaning incessantly about immigrants.

Now, that's just lovely...

Makes the derogatory claims from others about cat ladies, and pincushioned tattooed blue haired feminists seem so much more reasonable now.:rolleyes:

the_pen_turner

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

I always thought that “toxic masculinity” stemmed from lads being overly, or hyper, masculine but it, nearly, always seems to come from the guys who, in the real world, wouldn’t be seen as very masculine at all.

These types are the same ones who’d complain online about it “not being a real thing”. Overweight lads with ruddy cheeks and strong, negative, views of women or scrawny guys with glasses moaning incessantly about immigrants.

Thankfully these “types” are, mostly, confined to the online world and things seem to moving in the right direction in real life. Do I think modern feminism is good for society? Most certainly but while there has been a lot done there is, still, a lot more to do.

not sure how you could say we are moving in the right direct.
we a re rapidly moving away from equality creating terrible inequality against men
you say there is more to do. in what way. there are very few issues that effect women in this country.