Modern Feminism-Good for Society?

99nsr125

true-or-false wrote: »

The thread is asking whether feminism is good or bad for society.

People in the thread have said that they believe they need/benefit from/support feminism. So that's evidence that it's good for a section of society at least.

The only valid argument against this is to point out a way in which it's hurting someone (which one person has, though I disagree with their logic, but that's not relevant to my response to you). But anyway, your line of questioning is pointless since a lack of evidence to support feminism being good doesn't in any way prove that it's bad. Trying to scrutinise the people saying it's good, doesn't prove it's bad.

Asking for data, examples, proof, asking feminists what their qualifications are, what their life experience is, is a classic way of trying to diminish women's voices. It should be obvious why people are hesitant to share personal information on this thread.

I'm not trying to diminish anyone's voice I'm trying to get them to speak up.

Stop trying to gaslight me.


I never asked for personal information once, again stop trying to gaslight me.


*Some* people believing in something is not evidence but an ideological view. Some people believe in Scientology that doesn't make them any crazier or saner than feminists. So no it's not evidence it's ideology.

A lack of evidence to support any viewpoint makes it conjecture, that's a nice way of saying speculation or bullshït.


You took three paragraphs not to answer the question
Tried to gaslight me and to state
Asking for evidence is pointless.

If you expect to be taken seriously ever in any arguement you will have to learn facts, figures, statistics and case studies is how prove points and bring forward change.

Without the above you are just a deluded and biased (insert viewpoint) supporter with a discriminatory self interest)

true-or-false

true-or-false wrote: »

Asking for data, examples, proof, asking feminists what their qualifications are, what their life experience is, is a classic way of trying to diminish women's voices.

It's perfectly legitimate to ask women, who are after all fully matured and capable adults, to back up their assertions with data, examples and so on. The days of society believing that women exist by "feeling" in a man's "thinking" world, and therefore they ought not to worry their pretty little heads about daft things like facts and evidence, are thankfully well behind us.

"Asking women to back up what they say is diminishing their voices" is a misogynistic and infantilising thing to say. It's actually pretty extraordinary this sort of tripe comes out of the ideology claiming to have women's interests in mind.

EmmetSpiceland

Happy International Women’s Day, everyone!

CtevenSrowder

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Happy International Women’s Day, everyone!

But sure why isn't there even an international men's day...

Tell me how

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

But sure why isn't there even an international men's day...

November 19th

Leg End Reject

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Happy International Women’s Day, everyone!

Are you sending us all flowers?

CtevenSrowder

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

But sure why isn't there even an international men's day...

There is one.. although it doesn't receive anything close to the same attention or media promotion.

CtevenSrowder

Tell me how wrote: »

November 19th

I was joking!

CtevenSrowder

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There is one.. although it doesn't receive anything close to the same attention or media promotion.

Ah lads, surely youse know the meme of when it's internationals women's day there always people that pose the question that I did as if it somehow relevant to anything!

CtevenSrowder

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Ah lads, surely youse know the meme of when it's internationals women's day there always people that pose the question that I did as if it somehow relevant to anything!

Sure. Just as I know that some people are clueless. As a teacher, I assume most people are clueless.

Sleepy

Tell me how wrote: »

Someone yesterday used the anecdotal evidence of their sister being an engineer whereas previously, their mother couldn't even work in the 60's. They are correct. That is progress.
On a similar vein, I can talk about 2 of my sisters, one a Phd qualified scientist, the other a chartered engineer. The former was introduced in a formal meeting by her boss as a great little lady while her colleague was introduced in the same conversation with reference to his qualifications. She is the lead scientist for the company in their operations in that country.
The chartered engineer, in one performance review, was told she had done great work 'for a lady'.

None of these are very serious, but both evidence of how they are not viewed equally as male people in their roles/industries and both evidence of an environment where they both feel they are often viewed and assessed in the context of being female above the focus being on their contribution and performance.

Quite a good example of how trivial modern feminist issues can be:

Reality: "Lead scientist for the company" / "Chartered Engineer"
Feminist View: Hurt feelings because a compliment is clumsily given are bad mmkay...

...Ghost...

99nsr125 wrote: »

If you expect to be taken seriously ever in any arguement you will have to learn facts, figures, statistics and case studies is how prove points and bring forward change.

These are often just inconvenient truths against certain ideologies and tend to bring forward replies such as "mysoginist, bigot, (insert)phobe, nazi, privileged white male etc etc etc etc etc"

Tell me how wrote: »

November 19th

International Jax day.

Intl mens day in recent years has been used by the media as an extension to intl womens day. Today, the intl mens day website says "Happy Intl Womens Day" :pac:

Irish Times

Google have done their usual and put up a home page change for intl womens day. Never do it for intl mens day. Its actually an animated video this time.

I have no problem with Google doing this for intl womens day, but the fact they do nothing for the other half of the human race (gender fluidism aside) is just plain wrong and is another example of where feminism is.

Granadino

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't know much about it. Had to look for an English language article. It seems his party are trying to repeal a set of laws that seek to address domestic violence by setting up policies and services that serve explicitly female victims of domestic violence and approach domestic violence through a specifically gendered female victim, male perpetrator paradigm. They also seem to have concerns about a degradation of the presumption of innocence in such cases.

I don't know much about Vox and I'm sure no political party is above using a convenient issue for their own gain, but on the face of it his argument seems to be based in equality, no?

What are the stats of male/female domestic violence in Spain. How many men are killed by their female partners each year? (I don't have the stats to hand, so not a trick question)

Salvation Tambourine

Deleted User wrote: »

There is one.. although it doesn't receive anything close to the same attention or media promotion.

Or just cancelled

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/nov/17/row-after-university-of-york-cancels-international-mens-day-event

Eric Cartman

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Happy International Women’s Day, everyone!

I wonder will Gary Gannon talk about mens plight today

...Ghost...

Nokotan wrote: »

Or just cancelled

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/nov/17/row-after-university-of-york-cancels-international-mens-day-event

This is happening in universities all across Ireland. When I was on campus the past couple of years as a mature student, I noticed three things.

1. ~95% of students had their eyes glued to their phone screen in-between classes, even when talking to their classmates.

2. Voting outcomes were decided in advance. There was only ever side promoted for any type of vote. No arguments, or debates....just, this is how you will vote. Absolute sheep the lot of em.

3. Women were given the upper hand every which way possible. Inflated grades, no questions asked extra time to submit, support classes, girls only events to highly regarded speakers events. There is alot more, but these things were seen everywhere and were the norm.

silverharp

ladies , get in there :pac: the freedom to work in a burger joint awaits

https://twitter.com/BurgerKingUK/status/1368849339607638017

TomTomTim

silverharp wrote: »

ladies , get in there :pac: the freedom to work in a burger joint awaits

https://twitter.com/BurgerKingUK/status/1368849339607638017

I just came here to post that :pac:

Bannasidhe

...Ghost... wrote: »

3. Women were given the upper hand every which way possible. Inflated grades, no questions asked extra time to submit, support classes, girls only events to highly regarded speakers events. There is alot more, but these things were seen everywhere and were the norm.

As someone who has in my time corrected thousands of exam scripts for more than one Irish university I am interested in what proof you have that those correcting anonymous exam scripts can and do inflate grades for women.

Is there a special 'women' writing style that is easily picked up?
Little hearts over the letter 'i' to indicate this was written by a female?

No - there's a langer load of anonymous scripts that need to be read and marked to a strict deadline, and a lengthy excel sheet of numbers, a dedicated email address to email the filled in excel sheet to a person who uploads that to the secure server and only when all the information in inputted (several people can be correcting scripts for same course) are the names that go with the numbers revealed.
Lecturers only get access to this during the exam boards which is the final step - and as there are literally thousands of students and only days to get through it all only the marks of those 'on the cusp' [of failing/of getting a first] are examined in detail, unless a lecturer has a special case they wish to bring up.


As for no questions extra time
Anyone is free to request an extension - whether or not they get one is down to the reason they need it. I got more requests from male students - I also turned down more male students as being the 5th lecturer in 2 years to read "my grandmother died" or the 4th to be told "my friends died in a car crash" in 6 months tends to cause for more information to be supplied, and not be forthcoming.
Did I turn them down because they are male or because I find it hard to believe someone had 5 grandmothers who all died within 2 years, or that anyone is unfortunate enough to live through a 6 months period where 4 different groups of friends died in car crashes the weekend before an assignment was due....

Extensions are a pain in the hole as they slow down the whole submitting marks process, and there comes a point where extensions just cannot be given.

...Ghost...

Bannasidhe wrote: »

As someone who has in my time corrected thousands of exam scripts for more than one Irish university I am interested in what proof you have that those correcting anonymous exam scripts can and do inflate grades for women.

Is there a special 'women' writing style that is easily picked up?
Little hearts over the letter 'i' to indicate this was written by a female?

Well, putting your condescending tone to one side, it is often possible to tell the difference between the writing of a male or female (even without the little hearts above the "i"). But I wasn't talking about exams, which can make up as little as 40% (or even less) of a module. Lecturers grade continuous assessment and they DO know whose work they are correcting. How do I know this? Well, you put your name on submitted work. How do I know women have had inflated grades? I have a couple of examples and one was exam based.

I failed an exam by 3%. I missed one class to attend the campus GP. The class had a critical presentation and the lecturer had a policy of not sharing notes for non attendance---a stupid policy in itself. A girl in my group of friends also failed and had missed the same class when she was on holidays visiting family. She failed by 2% and we both asked to speak to the lecturer about the results. The girl went first and was given the 2% to bring her up to a passing grade when she explained she was visiting family abroad.

I was being denied the same treatment even though I had proof of medical appointment on campus and had requested a link to the presentation I missed on two occasions. She said all exam grades were final and she was just meeting students to explain the results....that is until I told her I knew that my classmate had been bumped up a couple percent for being on holiday and I asked if a medical appointment with the campus GP was less important than a holiday as an explanation for missing the critical class. So, she was a cnut and gave me 2%, but failed me on the missing 1% and I had to repeat. I complained to the department head along with half the class and the lecturer in question was reassigned. I still had to repeat and my class mate still got her pass. So it happens and is largely brushed under carpet.

The next example (will keep short) was a group assignment. Each group was given a grade and each individual added that grade to their personal tally. Every student got their results on a class email with the result beside the student number. There was a team of all girls with the second highest result and 3 teams with 1 girl and 4 boys. One of the lads spotted that the girls on the 3 teams had 5% higher mark than the boys on the same teams. This was only spotted because he was the class rep and had a list of names and student numbers. When reported to the lecturer, it was "an anomaly" and was corrected. All the males on those teams were given an extra 5% to shut them up.

Extensions are a pain in the hole as they slow down the whole submitting marks process, and there comes a point where extensions just cannot be given.

Agreed. Should only be exceptional circumstances.

Bannasidhe

...Ghost... wrote: »

Well, putting your condescending tone to one side, it is often possible to tell the difference between the writing of a male or female (even without the little hearts above the "i"). But I wasn't talking about exams, which can make up as little as 40% (or even less) of a module. Lecturers grade continuous assessment and they DO know whose work they are correcting. How do I know this? Well, you put your name on submitted work. How do I know women have had inflated grades? I have a couple of examples and one was exam based.

I failed an exam by 3%. I missed one class to attend the campus GP. The class had a critical presentation and the lecturer had a policy of not sharing notes for non attendance---a stupid policy in itself. A girl in my group of friends also failed and had missed the same class when she was on holidays visiting family. She failed by 2% and we both asked to speak to the lecturer about the results. The girl went first and was given the 2% to bring her up to a passing grade when she explained she was visiting family abroad.

I was being denied the same treatment even though I had proof of medical appointment on campus and had requested a link to the presentation I missed on two occasions. She said all exam grades were final and she was just meeting students to explain the results....that is until I told her I knew that my classmate had been bumped up a couple percent for being on holiday and I asked if a medical appointment with the campus GP was less important than a holiday as an explanation for missing the critical class. So, she was a cnut and gave me 2%, but failed me on the missing 1% and I had to repeat. I complained to the department head along with half the class and the lecturer in question was reassigned. I still had to repeat and my class mate still got her pass. So it happens and is largely brushed under carpet.

The next example (will keep short) was a group assignment. Each group was given a grade and each individual added that grade to their personal tally. Every student got their results on a class email with the result beside the student number. There was a team of all girls with the second highest result and 3 teams with 1 girl and 4 boys. One of the lads spotted that the girls on the 3 teams had 5% higher mark than the boys on the same teams. This was only spotted because he was the class rep and had a list of names and student numbers. When reported to the lecturer, it was "an anomaly" and was corrected. All the males on those teams were given an extra 5% to shut them up.

And this is your proof that across the board in Irish universities female students are routinely getting special treatment?
One course. One lecturer.

And condescending or not, I do know what I am talking about and if you were 1% short to pass your course in an Irish University then your record would have been discussed during exam board by all the lecturers in the dept - including any medical certs/extenuating circumstances.
Now, every dept is different but in my experience it would be 'this student' (no names given but everyone has the list so can check) is failing by 1% blah blah medical cert blah blah. 'This Student's' entire record is examined - any extensions, attendance, over all marks etc, before a vote is taken by show of hands.

All of your course work would also be given to the extern examiner who has the final say.
If you had to repeat then that is what the Extern decided based on your own academic record.

But sure, you go ahead and blame feminism, and extrapolate from your (imo only one side of the) story that preferential treatment for women is rampant across the entire 3rd level.

As for your other story- if a class rep had all the names of students plus their student numbers there are massive GDPR issues there that frankly do not add credence to your story.

CtevenSrowder

In what area do you study?

There are many aspects of universities that are geared towards women, such as female only conferences, grants exclusively for women or whatever, but this is the first time I've heard of women being given higher grades for being female.

It's likely if what you have experiences is true that is more specific to your university, or even more likely, the department of the university you study in. I've not witnessed nor even heard of such carry on in the hard sciences, or in general to be honest.

Eric Cartman

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And this is your proof that across the board in Irish universities female students are routinely getting special treatment?
One course. One lecturer.

And condescending or not, I do know what I am talking about and if you were 1% short to pass your course in an Irish University then your record would have been discussed during exam board by all the lecturers in the dept - including any medical certs/extenuating circumstances.
Now, every dept is different but in my experience it would be 'this student' (no names given but everyone has the list so can check) is failing by 1% blah blah medical cert blah blah. 'This Student's' entire record is examined - any extensions, attendance, over all marks etc, before a vote is taken by show of hands.

All of your course work would also be given to the extern examiner who has the final say.
If you had to repeat then that is what the Extern decided based on your own academic record.

But sure, you go ahead and blame feminism, and extrapolate from your (imo only one side of the) story that preferential treatment for women is rampant across the entire 3rd level.

As for your other story- if a class rep had all the names of students plus their student numbers there are massive GDPR issues there that frankly do not add credence to your story.

Nowhere near any of that kind of craic, but when I was in uni there was a support session for women in the department , kind of like an extra tutorial run by a woman for women, if one of the women in the course had failed an assignment this ‘tutor’ would have a word with the lecturer and usually would be allowed re submit an assignment.. which they were assisted with by that tutor. Such re submission and the extra tutoring was not available to male students.

CtevenSrowder

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Nowhere near any of that kind of craic, but when I was in uni there was a support session for women in the department , kind of like an extra tutorial run by a woman for women, if one of the women in the course had failed an assignment this ‘tutor’ would have a word with the lecturer and usually would be allowed re submit an assignment.. which they were assisted with by that tutor. Such re submission and the extra tutoring was not available to male students.

What did you study? I find all this very hard to believe.

Eric Cartman

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

What did you study? I find all this very hard to believe.

Electronics engineering , it wasnt sanctioned by the university itself , it was just one tutor who did this off her own bat for the female students when we were in 1st year.

Tell me how

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

I was joking!

Sure you were.

Sleepy wrote: »

Quite a good example of how trivial modern feminist issues can be:

Reality: "Lead scientist for the company" / "Chartered Engineer"
Feminist View: Hurt feelings because a compliment is clumsily given are bad mmkay...

More of the 'what more could you want' dismissal on women pointing out how they are still viewed and treated differently in the workplace.

...Ghost... wrote: »

T
Google have done their usual and put up a home page change for intl womens day. Never do it for intl mens day. Its actually an animated video this time.

I have no problem with Google doing this for intl womens day, but the fact they do nothing for the other half of the human race (gender fluidism aside) is just plain wrong and is another example of where feminism is.

And then, followed up in the next post, someone being upset that Google didn't dedicate a doodle for international mens day. But women referred to in a specific prejudiced manner at work is a 'trivial feminist issue'.

Tell me how

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Nowhere near any of that kind of craic, but when I was in uni there was a support session for women in the department , kind of like an extra tutorial run by a woman for women, if one of the women in the course had failed an assignment this ‘tutor’ would have a word with the lecturer and usually would be allowed re submit an assignment.. which they were assisted with by that tutor. Such re submission and the extra tutoring was not available to male students.

Didn't you comment here recently that you and a friend in cafe were laughing at the workers with their worthless college degrees while you and a friend were successful without having gone to college? Maybe I am not remembering correctly.

Eric Cartman

Tell me how wrote: »

Didn't you comment here recently that you and a friend in cafe were laughing at the workers with their worthless college degrees while you and a friend were successful without having gone to college? Maybe I am not remembering correctly.

Without having completed college, I dropped put to pursue business interests

Bannasidhe

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Nowhere near any of that kind of craic, but when I was in uni there was a support session for women in the department , kind of like an extra tutorial run by a woman for women, if one of the women in the course had failed an assignment this ‘tutor’ would have a word with the lecturer and usually would be allowed re submit an assignment.. which they were assisted with by that tutor. Such re submission and the extra tutoring was not available to male students.

So many questions.

How do you know the 'tutor' (your inverted commas) had a word with the lecturer about a particular student? Such things are confidential.

Who paid the tutor? It has to have been determined there was a need for an extra tutorial session for it to be funded. Irish universities have been underfunded for decades and it often is a choice between photocopies or pay a tutor. Photocopies usually win.

If you think all it takes is a word from a tutor to a lecturer to get a mark bumped up I personally have an essay mark that proves different (and still rankles with me) where the lecturer miss read what I wrote and despite the tutors best efforts refused to change the mark. And I later had to work with this lecturer, still rankled many years later.

Seriously, people think lecturers have far more say than they actually have.

There are internal examiners who check marks and external examiners who have the final say. And the latter will check all the course work before making a decision. Which is final.
They can and do lower/increase grades. Decide the exam the lecturer set was not fit for purpose (I sat that particular exam) and disregard all the marks in favour of using the continuous assessment part to determine final grade. Insist that all marks given by a particular lecturer be re-assessed (I have done this myself) etc etc etc.

None of this has anything to do with feminism.
It is the standard checks and balances used by all Irish and U.K. universities to try and ensure the standards are the same across the sector. It's not a perfect system by any means but it does mean a student's results are not decided by one person who may like/dislike them.

Eric Cartman

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So many questions.

How do you know the 'tutor' (your inverted commas) had a word with the lecturer about a particular student? Such things are confidential.

Who paid the tutor? It has to have been determined there was a need for an extra tutorial session for it to be funded. Irish universities have been underfunded for decades and it often is a choice between photocopies or pay a tutor. Photocopies usually win.

If you think all it takes is a word from a tutor to a lecturer to get a mark bumped up I personally have an essay mark that proves different (and still rankles with me) where the lecturer miss read what I wrote and despite the tutors best efforts refused to change the mark. And I later had to work with this lecturer, still rankled many years later.

Seriously, people think lecturers have far more say than they actually have.

There are internal examiners who check marks and external examiners who have the final say. And the latter will check all the course work before making a decision. Which is final.
They can and do lower/increase grades. Decide the exam the lecturer set was not fit for purpose (I sat that particular exam) and disregard all the marks in favour of using the continuous assessment part to determine final grade. Insist that all marks given by a particular lecturer be re-assessed (I have done this myself) etc etc etc.

None of this has anything to do with feminism.
It is the standard checks and balances used by all Irish and U.K. universities to try and ensure the standards are the same across the sector. It's not a perfect system by any means but it does mean a student's results are not decided by one person who may like/dislike them.

1) I dont know who was funding it , the ‘tutor’ in question was a self proclaimed feminist and really had a thing for promoting women in stem so as to whether it was funded or altruism is unknown to me

2) it definitely didnt universally work for all lecturers , there were some she would have sway with and others not

3) It wasnt mark bumping, it was allowing students re-submit assignments that she would then help them with.

4) I know this happened because a female class mate had a discussion about how she hoped she could re submit and was anxious to see the ‘tutor’ about this.