Modern Feminism-Good for Society?

Leg End Reject

anewme wrote: »

I would not be looking to change their outlook.

Same as the chap yesterday was not looking to change Piers Morgans.

So just to have a rant?

Why?

JimmyVik

anewme wrote: »

Only if you take it that way.

Sounded like one to me

silverharp

stefanovich wrote: »

What about toxic femininity? Doesn't really work does it...

Femininity sounds positive.
Masculinity negative.

I've been conditioned?

Femininity to me suggests empathy, grace, compassion, nurturing, elegance...

Is there a negative variant?

same logic as masculanity , take a feature like nurturing ,used inappropriately could turn into overprotecting/infantilisng.

joe40

joe40 wrote: »

"Don't be a pussy" can apply to both genders.

I don't view the phrase "toxic masculinity" as saying masculinity is toxic.

For example the traveling bands of football hooligans is a prime example of toxic masculinity. Not at all a reflection on all Men or on masculinity in general.

That would be nice, because in reality, it is used as a reflection on all men or masculinity in general, because it's assigned to the gender, and it is apparently the responsibility of the whole male gender to rein in such behavior.

This isn't about what Toxic masculinity is in theory. It's how the terms is used by the media, and others in practice that is so insulting and destructive.

There are plenty of very positive human traits which could be characterised as masculine.

By the way I think some behaviours more common in females such as a particular type of bitchiness could also be described as toxic. But again not a reflection on all Women.

Because when it comes to feminine behaviors, we are encouraged to see them as individuals, except where something is a positive. Negatives are something that happens with individuals not the overall group.. It happens quite often on boards, where generalisations are made about the male gender being such and such, but the demand is that we should say some women are such and such. When objections arise we're told not to be so sensitive.

anewme

anewme wrote: »

Not quoting all your post...agree in principal with most, I dint see posts here mocking mens appearance from women at all?

It happens.

As regards calling someone a pig, that's abuse not an opinion and reflects only on the person making the post. To me its hate though. Blind anger and hate.

Well.. TBF, I'm often quite grossed out by what some people wear. Outfits that were designed for a particular body shape in mind, but now given a new lease of life with the extra large sizes. Women, typically, who wear revealing or skin tight clothes, with their layers of fat bulging in various directions. It's not a pleasant sight for me to look upon, and in recent years, has become far more common than decades before. Not natural weight, but overweight and obese. I feel the same way about men too, although it seems more obvious with women due to the choices in clothing. There's no anger or hate in my thoughts.. hmm.. perhaps some contempt and disgust though. (this is not directed at women/men who struggle with their weight, and naturally are large. There's a difference there, and it's usually quite obvious when seeing them).

All the same, I wouldn't be insulting them, because I was raised to be polite. And yet, those thoughts are generally in my head.

Just as I'm sure people have negative thoughts when they see my shaking disorder, and watch me spilling tea all over the place when my arms spasm. Most people have the good manners to not say what they're thinking, because it's not going to cause any positive change.

However, this is a discussion board where people come to talk about everything that isn't spoken about in RL. As such, many people will be more open with their thoughts, than they would be offline. Which is why I suggested that some people just shouldn't be on the internet, if they can't deal with these observations... or control where they spend their time.

joe40

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That would be nice, because in reality, it is used as a reflection on all men or masculinity in general, because it's assigned to the gender, and it is apparently the responsibility of the whole male gender to rein in such behavior.

This isn't about what Toxic masculinity is in theory. It's how the terms is used by the media, and others in practice that is so insulting and destructive.



Because when it comes to feminine behaviors, we are encouraged to see them as individuals, except where something is a positive. Negatives are something that happens with individuals not the overall group.. It happens quite often on boards, where generalisations are made about the male gender being such and such, but the demand is that we should say some women are such and such. When objections arise we're told not to be so sensitive.

I find the phrase toxic masculinity is rarely used nowadays and generally in the correct context.

My biggest bugbear is simply the use of the word "Men" when talking about behavior.

Sometimes the topic under debate has merit but would it be too difficult to use the term "some men"
Men like women are not a hive mind, or a single personality type.

There is as much variation within a gender as there is between genders.

Salvation Tambourine

anewme wrote: »

We will have to agree to differ on thresholds.

To me, calling anyone a fat pig that should be hidden from sight is a grade a dick.

I'd like to meet that poster in real life, timid and all as I am.:pac:

Have you ever watched John Oliver's show on HBO? He is constantly calling people ugly and mocking their appearance. It's pretty poor form.

anewme

Nokotan wrote: »

Have you ever watched John Oliver's show on HBO? He is constantly calling people ugly and mocking their appearance. It's pretty poor form.

Haven't got a clue who that is.....would not be interested in that.

Eric Cartman

Just scrolled on to CA on the phone and the top threads are

1) two traveller women conned an elderly woman out of money
2) that mental howeya who sped down the m50 and is on the sesh in spain
3) megan who made a royal prince leave the royal family because they said mean things
4) This thread .

Doesnt seem like women ever have to take responsibility for anything anymore. No oppression here, just freedom from consequences.

Leg End Reject

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Just scrolled on to CA on the phone and the top threads are

1) two traveller women conned an elderly woman out of money
2) that mental howeya who sped down the m50 and is on the sesh in spain
3) megan who made a royal prince leave the royal family because they said mean things
4) This thread .

Doesnt seem like women ever have to take responsibility for anything anymore. No oppression here, just freedom from consequences.

It was a traveller couple who conned 2 elderly women.

anewme

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Just scrolled on to CA on the phone and the top threads are

1) two traveller women conned an elderly woman out of money
2) that mental howeya who sped down the m50 and is on the sesh in spain
3) megan who made a royal prince leave the royal family because they said mean things
4) This thread .

Doesnt seem like women ever have to take responsibility for anything anymore. No oppression here, just freedom from consequences.

No 3 is a particularly interesting take on Meghan/Harry.
She MADE him leave his family.

Talk about stretching things to woman bash.

Seriously!

Eric Cartman

Leg End Reject wrote: »

It was a traveller couple who conned 2 elderly women.

My apologies, the story still hi lights the massive inequality in our justice system where women receive no prison time for almost anything short of the most serious of crimes.

Eric Cartman

anewme wrote: »

No 3 is a particularly interesting take on Meghan/Harry.
She MADE him leave his family.

Talk about stretching things to woman bash.

Seriously!

its that kind of sexism that turns people against feminism, it can never be the woman who is doing anything wrong, any negative opinion on a specific woman is an attack on all women etc..

99nsr125

Tell me how wrote: »

Evidence please.

There was an in depth study in the states that showed there was no pay gap, in fact younger women got paid circa 106% of mens earnings. It was done by the bureau of labour statistics if I remember correctly.

The highlights were
Women worked less hours
earned more overall
Both hourly and
By headline.

I'll try and link to it

Highlights of Womens Earnings 2017
(I think)

Earnings diverged with children

99nsr125

See highlighted text

anewme

Eric Cartman wrote: »

its that kind of sexism that turns people against feminism, it can never be the woman who is doing anything wrong, any negative opinion on a specific woman is an attack on all women etc..

Its posts like yours that show the hidden Agenda and poor me pity party attitude some men have. All you were doing was trying to discredit women.

The poor Harry post is really some stretch though.

joe40

joe40 wrote: »

I find the phrase toxic masculinity is rarely used nowadays and generally in the correct context.

Correct context?

"Some authors associated with the mythopoetic men's movement have referred to the social pressures placed upon men to be violent, competitive, independent, and unfeeling as a "toxic" form of masculinity, in contrast to a "real" or "deep" masculinity that they say men have lost touch with in modern society"

Sure. That would be the correct context, however, in the social sciences, or those who advocate for feminism, or woke ideals, expand the meaning far beyond the correct form, to push an agenda to emasculate men.

It's used without balance. No attempt to address the negative aspects of women in society, or the effect that women have on men, or rather the changes in society, that may negatively affect men. Instead, the focus is on masculinity as being a negative set of behaviors that must be altered.

As for it being rarely used, I find it's commonly used in opinion pieces, wherever they're talking about the negative behavior of a man in a particular incident... but using that individual to represent everything that is bad with males.

My biggest bugbear is simply the use of the word "Men" when talking about behavior.

Sometimes the topic under debate has merit but would it be too difficult to use the term "some men"
Men like women are not a hive mind, or a single personality type.

There is as much variation within a gender as there is between genders.

Very true. I'm not terribly "manly". No interest in sports or competitive habits. There's very little that's aggressive in my nature (apart from discussions). Not interested in the "lad" culture that attracts many men. However, I'm still very much "a man".

anewme

anewme wrote: »

Its posts like yours that show the hidden Agenda and poor me pity party attitude some men have. All you were doing was trying to discredit women.

The poor Harry post is really some stretch though.

Actually, his post shows the attitude of modern feminism, and it's influence over the media, and society. There is a strong play in society to forgive women for behavior/choices that would have a man condemned by doing the same. There is often a double standard at play... and again, he's correct that an attack on one woman is an attack on all women. At least, many women take it as such.

They're both as bad as each other. Harry and Meghan. It's interesting to see how people are tying themselves in knots to find ways to excuse Meghan though.

Leg End Reject

anewme wrote: »

Its posts like yours that show the hidden Agenda and poor me pity party attitude some men have. All you were doing was trying to discredit women.

The poor Harry post is really some stretch though.

What is this "Agenda" with the uppercase A you keep mentioning?

anewme

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually, his post shows the attitude of modern feminism, and it's influence over the media, and society. There is a strong play in society to forgive women for behavior/choices that would have a man condemned by doing the same. There is often a double standard at play... and again, he's correct that an attack on one woman is an attack on all women. At least, many women take it as such.

They're both as bad as each other. Harry and Meghan. It's interesting to see how people are tying themselves in knots to find ways to excuse Meghan though.

Excuse Meghan for what exactly though? If we are to believe this poster, Meghan is responsible for taking Harry away from his family. Its safe to believe Harry had challenges with his family since he was a young boy, long before Meghyan.

He tried to link 4 posts.

2 were about couples.
1 is a discussion.
1 is about a woman joyriding.

What is the point of his post?

anewme

Leg End Reject wrote: »

What is this "Agenda" with the uppercase A you keep mentioning?

Poster clutching at straws to have a go at women. Pretty obvious from his post, which was also incorrect.

What has use or not ot uppercase A got to do with anything? I always use a capital for a person, place or thing. High babies stuff. Too old to change now, thats my writing style, not sure why its relevant or even why its any of your business?

anewme

anewme wrote: »

Excuse Meghan for what exactly though?

For playing the audience. She's no shrinking violet innocent to the ways of the world, or what she was getting herself into. And yet, that seems to be what people want to take away from all of this. It's really bizarre.

If we are to believe this poster, Meghan is responsible for taking Harry away from his family. Its safe to believe Harry had challenges with his family since he was a young boy, long before Meghyan.

He tried to link 4 posts.

2 were about couples.
1 is a discussion.
1 is about a woman joyriding.

What is the point of his post?

He said it himself at the end: "Doesnt seem like women ever have to take responsibility for anything anymore. No oppression here, just freedom from consequences".

Now, I didn't agree with the part of the post you've listed above. However where he says "its that kind of sexism that turns people against feminism, it can never be the woman who is doing anything wrong, any negative opinion on a specific woman is an attack on all women etc..", that is what I did agree with. (hence my quoting your own answer to him, and commenting about it... not the other post)

Leg End Reject

anewme wrote: »

Poster clutching at straws to have a go at women. Pretty obvious from his post, which was also incorrect.

What has use or not ot uppercase A got to do with anything? I always use a capital for a person, place or thing. High babies stuff. Too old to change now, thats my writing style, not sure why its relevant or even why its any of your business?

Not all nouns require uppercase, it's only proper nouns and acronyms.

I thought there was a genuine movement called The Agenda, hence my question.

I didn't imply it was my business, I just asked.

Clutching at straws though!

anewme

Leg End Reject wrote: »

Not all nouns require uppercase, it's only proper nouns and acronyms.

I thought there was a genuine movement called The Agenda, hence my question.

I didn't imply it was my business, I just asked.

Clutching at straws though!

Well, that's my style of writing and while not perfect, it has served me well.

Might be an old term, but he is clutching at straws though. He quoted 4 posts for dramatic impact and 3 were wrong and the 4th could be a man or woman, just bad behaviour.

99nsr125

joe40 wrote: »

I really am at a loss. Are you saying Men work harder than women.

Men do work harder than women
Every work/pay study shows men working circa 10% more hours than women

99nsr125

99nsr125 wrote: »

Men do work harder than women
Every work/pay study shows men working circa 10% more hours than women

They're averages (rather than a rule) and industry dependent. You're making the same "mistake" as those who push the Gender wage gap, except that you're favoring males.

It's not applicable for many other industries where women do work extensively, such as nursing.

pwurple

99nsr125 wrote: »

Men do work harder than women
Every work/pay study shows men working circa 10% more hours than women

And this is where men don't realise where they are getting a short straw by not supporting feminism.

Men are deluded if they think lack of equality doesn't affect them just as badly as women.


I keep giving these same examples in threads... so apologies if you've read this before over the years.

I worked for years as a consulting engineer, but the work could theoretically dry up at some point. My husband had a more stable, corporate number, but lower paid. We were married, I became pregnant and worked up to the legally prescribed 2 weeks before due date. I then switched to state maternity benefit, which my small company did not "top up". My husbands huge corporate covered full mat leave pay for women at the time.

3 months later, I was physically recovered from the birth, and clients were calling wondering when I was coming back. I phoned the social and said, hey, I'd like to now transfer the rest of my mat leave to my husband, as the baby is still very young, but I can go back to work now.

Only scenario that's possible? I would have to be dead. Widowers can take leave, but not men with living wives.

So, that had an effect on us as a family. Our choice was removed, he was effectively directed? forced? by our laws into working more, while we as a family had an unnecessarily reduced income. (Over My Dead Body was a tad to extreme for us to choose)

Think further down that chain. If men are not permitted to look after their offspring, then they end up not being the primary caregiver. In relationship breakdowns, (some potentially caused by frustration at either person feeling trapped in roles) they almost automatically get separated from their children.

That inequality is what feminism rejects.

That's what it brings for society.


I can go on and on with more examples, as my husband was subsequently laid off, and has become the stay-at-home parent here. The amount of hoops he has to jump through administratively to look after his own children is ridiculous. Plus the constant barrage of what I will call discrimination. Being accused of being a child molestor for bringing his daughter to the girls changing rooms at swimming lessons. Teachers emailing and calling me every year for school related information and omitting him. Etc. etc etc.

Silentcorner

Feminism offers nothing to men....nothing, the hint is in the name.

pwurple

pwurple wrote: »

Think further down that chain. If men are not permitted to look after their offspring, then they end up not being the primary caregiver. In relationship breakdowns, (some potentially caused by frustration at either person feeling trapped in roles) they almost automatically get separated from their children.

That inequality is what feminism rejects.

That's what it brings for society.

I was with you until I reached the part in bold... because feminism is not the champion for male rights even to the point of establishing equality. Feminist activists and theorists, typically seek to present men as being the enemy, and the opposition for women to gain the benefits in society that they deserve.

I've heard very few (there have been a few) feminists advocating paternity leave, equal representation in child custody, the sharing of expenses, etc. The vast majority push the agenda that is currently in play. Women are mothers, mothers are the best option for children, and men should support mothers while they are in custody of his child (his doesn't automatically mean biologically).

I can go on and on with more examples, as my husband was subsequently laid off, and has become the stay-at-home parent here. The amount of hoops he has to jump through administratively to look after his own children is ridiculous. Plus the constant barrage of what I will call discrimination. Being accused of being a child molestor for bringing his daughter to the girls changing rooms at swimming lessons. Teachers emailing and calling me every year for school related information and omitting him. Etc. etc etc.

Sadly, that is the effect of feminism in society.. When feminists call all men to be rapists, how do you think that's going to affect society? Or the promotion of men in domestic abuse, while downplaying the behavior of women doing the same? Or the promotion of men as being sexual predators towards children, but again, downplaying the role of women doing the same.

It all counts towards how society views males, and subsequently the laws that are implemented, and the manner by which they're enforced.

It's the reason why male managers don't want to mentor female staff. Or that they won't travel or even stay in the same hotel as female staff members, or how male teachers will keep the door open while having a female student in for tutoring. Feminism pushed the perspective that men were untrustworthy. The entire gender was/is held responsible for what individuals do.

That's what feminism brings for society. Distrust. Inequality. Division.

Silentcorner

Deleted User wrote: »

That's what feminism brings for society. Distrust. Inequality. Division.

This is evident where the impact of feminism is publicly visible, like media, culture even politics....it's been a commercial disaster.

But I would blame the broader Identity politics movement that has unleashed the most authoritarian, humourless, vindictive cultural movement fueled by social media with it's narcissism and petite mindedness of which Feminism is a part of!

I can only imagine the havoc it is creating in HR departments everywhere, we'll be fitting "healing rooms" in work places or some such!!