Modern Feminism-Good for Society?

Skippyme

Deleted User wrote: »

That's what feminism brings for society. Distrust. Inequality. Division.

But what about the negative impact men are having on other men's behaviour & their ability firstly to reach out, & secondly not to be ridiculed or dismissed ???

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058042337

PG 1* especially, & 7 &11

stefanovich

99nsr125 wrote: »

There was an in depth study in the states that showed there was no pay gap, in fact younger women got paid circa 106% of mens earnings. It was done by the bureau of labour statistics if I remember correctly.

The highlights were
Women worked less hours
earned more overall
Both hourly and
By headline.

I'll try and link to it

Highlights of Womens Earnings 2017
(I think)

Earnings diverged with children

You go girl. Obviously women are naturally more able.

Eric Cartman

pwurple wrote: »

And this is where men don't realise where they are getting a short straw by not supporting feminism.

Men are deluded if they think lack of equality doesn't affect them just as badly as women.


I keep giving these same examples in threads... so apologies if you've read this before over the years.

I worked for years as a consulting engineer, but the work could theoretically dry up at some point. My husband had a more stable, corporate number, but lower paid. We were married, I became pregnant and worked up to the legally prescribed 2 weeks before due date. I then switched to state maternity benefit, which my small company did not "top up". My husbands huge corporate covered full mat leave pay for women at the time.

3 months later, I was physically recovered from the birth, and clients were calling wondering when I was coming back. I phoned the social and said, hey, I'd like to now transfer the rest of my mat leave to my husband, as the baby is still very young, but I can go back to work now.

Only scenario that's possible? I would have to be dead. Widowers can take leave, but not men with living wives.

So, that had an effect on us as a family. Our choice was removed, he was effectively directed? forced? by our laws into working more, while we as a family had an unnecessarily reduced income. (Over My Dead Body was a tad to extreme for us to choose)

Think further down that chain. If men are not permitted to look after their offspring, then they end up not being the primary caregiver. In relationship breakdowns, (some potentially caused by frustration at either person feeling trapped in roles) they almost automatically get separated from their children.

That inequality is what feminism rejects.

That's what it brings for society.


I can go on and on with more examples, as my husband was subsequently laid off, and has become the stay-at-home parent here. The amount of hoops he has to jump through administratively to look after his own children is ridiculous. Plus the constant barrage of what I will call discrimination. Being accused of being a child molestor for bringing his daughter to the girls changing rooms at swimming lessons. Teachers emailing and calling me every year for school related information and omitting him. Etc. etc etc.

The only issue is firstly - feminism and the feminist movement has no interest in fixing the plight of your husband in the last paragraph, or increasing parernity leave.

Secondly - yet again the only advantage here is taking more time off work, potentially harming his career.

the only 'advantages' to 'feminism' or some sort of reform anyone ever talks about is fathers having more time off.

Excluding children, just deal with childless men and women here, what advantages does feminism or reforms masquerading as feminism provide anyone at this period in time.

Silentcorner

Teofimo98 wrote: »

Men are also more likely to die at work or suffer I'll health as a result of work. You don't find too many women down the mines or felling trees.

Men also commute longer distances....I'm gonna call it unpaid commuting and demand the Government take action...time to burn the jocks boys!!!

anewme

Skippyme wrote: »

But what about the negative impact men are having on other men's behaviour & their ability firstly to reach out, & secondly not to be ridiculed or dismissed ???

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058042337

PG 1* especially, & 7 &11

Jaysus !

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

It's the reason why male managers don't want to mentor female staff.

So, you're saying that with all the sexism, discrimination, rape and abuse scandals that have come out, men are sometimes unfairly discriminated against themselves? I'd totally agree with that, I think it's terrible. I remember being in secondary school after there had been some huge scandal about the abuse of young boys in the church. A priest was walking across the grounds of the school (it was a public right of way) and one of the girls pointed and said something like 'miss! a priest!' and everyone gasped. Looking back that was truly terrible, I'm just glad the poor man was too far away to know the reaction we'd had.

But you're extrapolating something like that to make out that it's women's fault we don't get equal mentorship at work, because men are scared they'll be accused of being inappropriate with us?

Would you rather those scandals were never exposed and people (men and women alike) went on being abused? Or are you fine with the scandals but women should expect to pay a price?

How about men just act professionally? Many do, without having to think about it. If we can get to a stage where women are actually seen as people first in society, this won't be an issue any more.

To say that:

The entire gender was/is held responsible for what individuals do.

in relation to women accusing men of being inappropriate, while implying that it justifies treating all women like walking accusation bombs, is entirely hypocritical. You realise you're holding all women responsible for what individuals do?

Although I suppose for many people, when they try to picture an individual, they'd never picture a woman.

the_pen_turner

true-or-false wrote: »

So, you're saying that with all the sexism, discrimination, rape and abuse scandals that have come out, men are sometimes unfairly discriminated against themselves? I'd totally agree with that, I think it's terrible. I remember being in secondary school after there had been some huge scandal about the abuse of young boys in the church. A priest was walking across the grounds of the school (it was a public right of way) and one of the girls pointed and said something like 'miss! a priest!' and everyone gasped. Looking back that was truly terrible, I'm just glad the poor man was too far away to know the reaction we'd had.

But you're extrapolating something like that to make out that it's women's fault we don't get equal mentorship at work, because men are scared they'll be accused of being inappropriate with us?

Would you rather those scandals were never exposed and people (men and women alike) went on being abused? Or are you fine with the scandals but women should expect to pay a price?

How about men just act professionally? Many do, without having to think about it. If we can get to a stage where women are actually seen as people first in society, this won't be an issue any more.

To say that:
in relation to women accusing men of being inappropriate, while implying that it justifies treating all women like walking accusation bombs, is entirely hypocritical. You realise you're holding all women responsible for what individuals do?

Although I suppose for many people, when they try to picture an individual, they'd never picture a woman.

there would be an incredibly small (or i hope small) number of acusations of misconduct against men and an even small no of those as false claims.
but those increadible rare events are effecting change in the way that men deal with those situation, mostly avoid the risk if at all possible. that is the only sensible solution
it is the very same as women feeling uncumfortable if a man is walking behind them or they are walking alone somewhere. it is an incredably small no of those situations that result in anything negative happening but women change their behaviours and routines etc to reduce those risks.
men are only doing the same

pwurple

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The only issue is firstly - feminism and the feminist movement has no interest in fixing the plight of your husband in the last paragraph, or increasing parernity leave.

Secondly - yet again the only advantage here is taking more time off work, potentially harming his career.

the only 'advantages' to 'feminism' or some sort of reform anyone ever talks about is fathers having more time off.

Excluding children, just deal with childless men and women here, what advantages does feminism or reforms masquerading as feminism provide anyone at this period in time.

No, you don’t get it. feminism is about equality. It’s not about having anyone having more time off. (Seriously??) And the fact that you perceived someone taking 12 weeks off in 30 years as harmful to a career is part of the societal brainwashing. Families are part of all our lives. Hasn’t the pandemic brought that home? Everyone here was a child, has parents. There is no family-free vacuum. As a society, everyone counts.

Feminism is about chucking away the concept of boxing us all into compartments. Having choice. Not being stuck with “most women like x” or “most men like y” so that’s all you are ever permitted to do.


Not being forced to marry. Not being a failure for not having children. Or for having too many. Or having children of the wrong gender. Being able to choose a subject to study, a career to pursue, a place to travel, a road to walk on.


Flexibility, freedom, choice.


If you don’t think those values bring society benefits, there’s not much else to discuss.

the_pen_turner

pwurple wrote: »

No, you don’t get it. feminism is about equality. It’s not about having anyone having more time off. (Seriously??) And the fact that you perceived someone taking 12 weeks off in 30 years as harmful to a career is part of the societal brainwashing. Families are part of all our lives. Hasn’t the pandemic brought that home? Everyone here was a child, has parents. There is no family-free vacuum. As a society, everyone counts.

Feminism is about chucking away the concept of boxing us all into compartments. Having choice. Not being stuck with “most women like x” or “most men like y” so that’s all you are ever permitted to do.


Not being forced to marry. Not being a failure for not having children. Or for having too many. Or having children of the wrong gender. Being able to choose a subject to study, a career to pursue, a place to travel, a road to walk on.


Flexibility, freedom, choice.


If you don’t think those values bring society benefits, there’s not much else to discuss.

femanism is not about equality. everything it does is to make more inequality.
they are not out campaining for the huge no of mens rights issues that we have today

its not just those 12 weeks its all the knock on effects like more sick days, having to leave more often, working less overtime or less drive to get into higher more stressfull and time consuming jobs. nothing wrong with that but it does have an effect

Silentcorner

pwurple wrote: »

No, you don’t get it. feminism is about equality.

Feminism is about chucking away the concept of boxing us all into compartments. Having choice. Not being stuck with “most women like x” or “most men like y” so that’s all you are ever permitted to do.


Not being forced to marry. Not being a failure for not having children. Or for having too many. Or having children of the wrong gender. Being able to choose a subject to study, a career to pursue, a place to travel, a road to walk on.


Flexibility, freedom, choice.


If you don’t think those values bring society benefits, there’s not much else to discuss.

Those are the values that have brought us benefits, people having the freedom to chose....people choosing to start families, get married, etc...nobody is being forced to do anything, it's all in your head...stop women reading romance novels if you think that will work!!!

What you are describing requires mass social engineering along with mass censorship of any alternate views....it's been done before.

You may not realize it but you sound like a Communist/Socialist...they were always driven by their version of equality as well, you think you are part of the first generation to think like that, look at the history of the countries that have tried it before....

"Not being a forced to marry"...what part of the world do you live in, because where I live, women spend fortunes on their special day, who is forcing them to spend thousands on wedding dresses and chocolate fountains? Jesus talk about a persecution complex!

This generation of women have been reared by women who have enjoyed all the freedoms to make whatever choices they want...and long should it continue, "having children of the wrong gender",...will you go away out of it!!!

Silentcorner

Silentcorner wrote: »

This is evident where the impact of feminism is publicly visible, like media, culture even politics....it's been a commercial disaster.

But I would blame the broader Identity politics movement that has unleashed the most authoritarian, humourless, vindictive cultural movement fueled by social media with it's narcissism and petite mindedness of which Feminism is a part of!

I can only imagine the havoc it is creating in HR departments everywhere, we'll be fitting "healing rooms" in work places or some such!!

Yes, but the broader identity politics movement came originally from the feminist theorists who argued that gender was a social construct, and other forms of resisting past accepted notions of self.

You can't really throw these ideas into the world, and not expect other groups (or subgroups within your own following) take those ideas, and run with them for other concerns.

TBH it's one of the reasons I supported Cartmans post before. There is a lack of responsibility by feminists for the ideas that they promoted, which have since been adopted by a wide range of other groups, from identity politics, to the PC/woke culture, to BLM extremist activists.

Skippyme

Skippyme wrote: »

But what about the negative impact men are having on other men's behaviour & their ability firstly to reach out, & secondly not to be ridiculed or dismissed ???

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058042337

PG 1* especially, & 7 &11

What about it? It's a well known aspect of male behavior that this goes on, and it's something that society was already seeking to address... over time.

Pointing to that.. doesn't mean that we can't look at other factors too. That's the problem really. It's the expectation that we can only consider one negative aspect at a time, and not appreciate multiple influences within society.

anewme

Deleted User wrote: »

What about it? It's a well known aspect of male behavior that this goes on, and it's something that society was already seeking to address... over time.

Pointing to that.. doesn't mean that we can't look at other factors too. That's the problem really. It's the expectation that we can only consider one negative aspect at a time, and not appreciate multiple influences within society.

Have you read the viciousness.... makes this thread look like a fairy tale?

Silentcorner

anewme wrote: »

Have you read the viciousness.... makes this thread look like a fairy tale?

Jesus, feminists really don't like alternate opinions.

true-or-false

true-or-false wrote: »

So, you're saying that with all the sexism, discrimination, rape and abuse scandals that have come out, men are sometimes unfairly discriminated against themselves? I'd totally agree with that, I think it's terrible. I remember being in secondary school after there had been some huge scandal about the abuse of young boys in the church. A priest was walking across the grounds of the school (it was a public right of way) and one of the girls pointed and said something like 'miss! a priest!' and everyone gasped. Looking back that was truly terrible, I'm just glad the poor man was too far away to know the reaction we'd had.

I've read the above three times, and I still don't understand your point.

But you're extrapolating something like that to make out that it's women's fault we don't get equal mentorship at work, because men are scared they'll be accused of being inappropriate with us?

Did I say it was women's fault? I said it was the fault of feminism. Considering the extremely low percentages of women who identify themselves as feminists... i'm not so quick to rest responsibility for what has happened at their feet.

and... no... you're the one doing the extrapolating (kinda).. since my post was rather clear, and yet, you've decided to reinterpret it.

Would you rather those scandals were never exposed and people (men and women alike) went on being abused? Or are you fine with the scandals but women should expect to pay a price?

Where did you get all that from? No. Seriously.

How about men just act professionally? Many do, without having to think about it. If we can get to a stage where women are actually seen as people first in society, this won't be an issue any more.

To say that:
in relation to women accusing men of being inappropriate, while implying that it justifies treating all women like walking accusation bombs, is entirely hypocritical. You realise you're holding all women responsible for what individuals do?

Although I suppose for many people, when they try to picture an individual, they'd never picture a woman.

haha... that has got to be one of the most aggressive responses I've received so far.. all the while pushing my points far beyond what was said.

anewme

Silentcorner wrote: »

Jesus, feminists really don't like alternate opinions.

Oh, are you telling me I am a feminist, because I don't agree with your views?

Silentcorner

anewme wrote: »

Oh, are you telling me I am a feminist, because I don't agree with your views?

No...your own posts do just that!

joe40

Silentcorner wrote: »

Jesus, feminists really don't like alternate opinions.

Are you not also getting very angry about alternate views to your own.

Nothing wrong with that, couldn't have a debate without it, but why complain when others have "alternate views"

Feminism, modern or otherwise, isn't the only angry opinion out there.

anewme

Silentcorner wrote: »

No...your own posts do just that!

Well someone else here said to me that if people do not identify as a feminist, then no one should tell them what they are.

My posts are advocating equality and inclusion.

You may call that feminism, so hey ho.

anewme

anewme wrote: »

Have you read the viciousness.... makes this thread look like a fairy tale?

Could you be more specific (without me going through all 7 pages)?

In any case, I wouldn't be too surprised that there would be nasty comments coming from both sides. That tends to be the score with these kinds of discussions..

Silentcorner

joe40 wrote: »

Are you not also getting very angry about alternate views to your own.

Nothing wrong with that, couldn't have a debate without it, but why complain when others have "alternate views"

Feminism, modern or otherwise, isn't the only angry opinion out there.

True, it's not...causing division has consequences and I take your point.

anewme

anewme wrote: »

Well someone else here said to me that if people do not identify as a feminist, then no one should tell them what they are.

My posts are advocating equality and inclusion.

You may call that feminism, so hey ho.

With respect, your posts are heavily slanted towards women.. just as mine are heavily slanted towards men.

It doesn't mean that you're not interested in actual equality, or having some belief that women should be equal with extra benefits attached (due to reasons). TBH I'm still figuring out from your posts, what it is that you believe.

I'd consider you to be a feminist, based on what I've seen so far. Although, I wouldn't consider you to be an advocate of radical feminism (aka modern feminism).

99nsr125

stefanovich wrote: »

You go girl. Obviously women are naturally more able.

Women are better educated, have been for some time

The case is that there is now systematic sexism in education. There are not enough men, at primary/k12, secondary/high school and university level. This is creating sexist bias both in role models, curriculum and research and development.

This has created a vicious circle where education standards are actually declining overall which will result in it being crap for everyone.

joe40

99nsr125 wrote: »

Women are better educated, have been for some time

The case is that there is now systematic sexism in education. There are not enough men, at primary/k12, secondary/high school and university level. This is creating sexist bias both in role models, curriculum and research and development.

This has created a vicious circle where education standards are actually declining overall which will result in it being crap for everyone.

Where is your evidence of declining education standards?

anewme

Deleted User wrote: »

Could you be more specific (without me going through all 7 pages)?

In any case, I wouldn't be too surprised that there would be nasty comments coming from both sides. That tends to be the score with these kinds of discussions..

Whatever pages the poster said in his post...

Skippyme

Why refer to me as a feminist or even a male feminist as some might ?

The debate was focused on how men treat men primarily & how that affects men

When men bring women into it whether it's how their mothers influenced them, or because some ladies like bad boys etc. then they defend their behaviour & use it as a reasons to stick with it just because it suits some men to be selfish & conceited.

They also use it to divert the topic to women & the various ways that women may be impacted or drawn into supporting them.

How about actually debating it in terms of the way that men are impacted within their platonic relationships with other guys, & being forward thinking enough to consider the ongoing impact on sons, grandsons, brothers, nephews, friends or even retired gentlemen ?

anewme

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd consider you to be a feminist, based on what I've seen so far. Although, I wouldn't consider you to be an advocate of radical feminism (aka modern feminism).

Well, contrary to popular belief and however many pages later...I still dont know what modern feminism is. :pac:

anewme

Skippyme wrote: »

Why refer to me as a feminist or even a male feminist as some might ?

The debate was focused on how men treat men primarily & how that affects men

When men bring women into it whether it's how their mothers influenced them, or because some ladies like bad boys etc. then they defend their behaviour & use it as a reasons to stick with it just because it suits some men to be selfish & conceited.

They also use it to divert the topic to women & the various ways that women may be impacted or drawn into supporting them.

How about actually debating it in terms of the way that men are impacted within their platonic relationships with other guys, & being forward thinking enough to consider the ongoing impact on sons, grandsons, brothers, nephews, friends or even retired gentlemen ?

Some posters accused you of having an Agenda (I say with capital A) when you made your post, like it was a thesis or something. Can you update on that in interest of transparency?

Silentcorner

Skippyme wrote: »

Why refer to me as a feminist or even a male feminist as some might ?

The debate was focused on how men treat men primarily & how that affects men

When men bring women into it whether it's how their mothers influenced them, or because some ladies like bad boys etc. then they defend their behaviour & use it as a reasons to stick with it just because it suits some men to be selfish & conceited.

They also use it to divert the topic to women & the various ways that women may be impacted or drawn into supporting them.

How about actually debating it in terms of the way that men are impacted within their platonic relationships with other guys, & being forward thinking enough to consider the ongoing impact on sons, grandsons, brothers, nephews, friends or even retired gentlemen ?

Because self improvement is an individual journey, something every individual should engage in, in all aspects of their lives and not something they should be indoctrinated into doing...why does everything have to be gendered...what is with the obsession with gender...oh ya, sorry, you said, your a feminist.

anewme

anewme wrote: »

Whatever pages the poster said in his post...

You told me that the comments were terrible..

the posts that the other poster referred to came from a particular poster with 94 total posts. That doesn't inspire me to pay much attention to him. Besides he started talking about "Alpha" males, and that's a remarkably quick way for me to think he's a muppet.

Post 11.

Skippyme wrote: »

Toxic refers to when men act like Donald Trump old fashioned caricature stereotypes etc. It's kind of oppressive and one take outlook.

Not exactly offensive to anyone except Trump..

Nope. I've actually went through the first three pages, and didn't see anything that I'd consider to be horrible behavior. Some remarks were insensitive, and overly aggressive, but again, that tends to happen with these kinds of topics. I fully expect to see the same happen here on this thread.

So.. is this claim about awful behavior just about one poster on the thread? I was expecting to see a wide range of nastiness..