Modern Feminism-Good for Society?

Mike Murdock

stefanovich wrote: »

Please don't tell me it's because she:
* Stole milk from children (Labour's idea, they already removed it from secondary schools with a plan to remove from primary which she never recinded)
* Closed mines (Again Labour closed more mines than her)

The country was crippled by the unions with rampant inflation and they had to be faced down.

It tires me so that the subsequent propaganda has stuck so well.

For me, and a lot of Irish people, it is because of how she handled the situation in Northern Ireland.

Aside from that, she was a marked improvement on the disastrous Wilson & Callaghan.

stefanovich

Mike Murdock wrote: »

For me, and a lot of Irish people, it is because of how she handled the situation in Northern Ireland.

Aside from that, she was a marked improvement on the disastrous Wilson & Callaghan.

I suppose the fact that the IRA were actively trying to assassinate her might have made things personal.

joe40

anewme wrote: »

Well in this case it was as it related directly to how pleasing or lack thereof it was to mens eyes and they should wear sacks as they are not shaggable.

Men had an issue standing behind them in a queue and they did not like the view of their ass.

They liked slim women in front of them, they liked their "ass crack' and 'camel toe' on display.

That's pretty genderised to me.

The comment you are referring to is awful. For me it reflects more on the person saying it than anything else.
Only a complete dick would come out with a comment like that, so in a way I take it as an assh*le sign above a particular poster and know i can disregard their views as worthless.

Both genders can be mocked for appearance and it is very wrong. However I think as a society we are changing and maturing in that respect. Hopefully anyway.

Unfortunately there will always be horrible, crass people, and the internet amplifies them. They're not representative though.
Maybe I'm naive but I do have faith in the basic decency of the majority out there.

On the Piers Morgan thing, I believe that "walk out" was carefully orchestrated on his part. I don't believe a broadcaster like him would walk out from frustration. He is an odious and has made a career out of confrontational stuff like that.
His walking out was a deliberate and planned move imho.

I don't really follow the Royal family (zero interest).

silverharp

anewme wrote: »

Well in this case it was as it related directly to how pleasing or lack thereof it was to mens eyes and they should wear sacks as they are not shaggable.

Men had an issue standing behind them in a queue and they did not like the view of their ass.

They liked slim women in front of them, they liked their "ass crack' and 'camel toe' on display.

That's pretty genderised to me.

society wide it isnt , men are subject to public narratives based on how they look, what they wear, how they exercise etc. if "everyone" is poking at both genders then it isnt a gendered issue

anewme

Leg End Reject wrote: »

You are honing in on throw away comments and using them as evidence of widespread misogyny.

A comment on the internet about some anonymous women is not an attack on all women. If that poster walked up to a woman on the street and called her a fat pig in yoga pants that would be a nasty insult to one woman. He would also be an asshole.

Men are mocked for being fat, short, scrawny, bald and not being good at flirting. It's not as if women are the only gender judged on physical appearance, or that women don't do it.

Be honest now, have you never heard you female friends mock, ridicule or insult others?

The point I am making is that it is not one man making the comment. There was a whole thread of it.

People felt strong enough to start a thread on it pointing it out as an obvious example of misogyny that is evident here on boards.

Saying but women do it - It is the exact same as people making the notallmen comments about Sarah Everard on Twitter. Too busy pushing back to actually accept it how it was meant - as misogyny.

To refute that - I don't see a large number of men bashing threads here laughing at men. I do see daily why do women....why do fat women....why are old women looking for attention....blah blah bloody blah.

anewme

silverharp wrote: »

society wide it isnt , men are subject to public narratives based on how they look, what they wear, how they exercise etc. if "everyone" is poking at both genders then it isnt a gendered issue

Im talking about obvious misogyny here.

Leg End Reject

anewme wrote: »

Im talking about obvious misogyny here.

Obvious to you, not everyone read it that way.

anewme

joe40 wrote: »

On the Piers Morgan thing, I believe that "walk out" was carefully orchestrated on his part. I don't believe a broadcaster like him would walk out from frustration. He is an odious and has made a career out of confrontational stuff like that.
His walking out was a deliberate and planned move imho.

I don't really follow the Royal family (zero interest).

I don't follow the Royal Family, but due to lockdown craziness, watched the interview.:pac:

However, from the bits I've have picked since the Wedding in the wider media, it is clear that he had a personal vendetta against her. He was writing constant articles about her. Bit creepy.

I don't believe that walkout was orchestrated - I don't think he could face the truth served up to him. :pac:

anewme

Leg End Reject wrote: »

Obvious to you, not everyone read it that way.

Well a significant number of women and others read it that way, enough to start a thread on it.

It was not me who started the thread.

anewme

anewme wrote: »

Im talking about obvious misogyny here.

People can be critical of women without it being misogyny.

That's part of the problem really. This belief that women should somehow be above criticism.

And a few posters saying negative things about women or how they behave is not representative of the male gender.

anewme

Teofimo98 wrote: »

People all over the Internet mock Donald Trump for his appearance, by your logic that's a case of misandry.

I don't see people commenting on how his ass looks in yoga pants, or if he has camel toe?

stefanovich

Teofimo98 wrote: »

People all over the Internet mock Donald Trump for his appearance, by your logic that's a case of misandry.

Fair game to the left. Just shout fascist and the dehumanisation is complete.

Silentcorner

pwurple wrote: »

Not being forced to marry. Not being a failure for not having children. Or for having too many. Or having children of the wrong gender. Being able to choose a subject to study, a career to pursue, a place to travel, a road to walk on.

.

pwurple wrote: »

Stop women reading romance novels? Lol. Do you think coming across as a misogynist improves your point that feminism isn’t necessary?

it’s exactly what you , and some other men on this thread are doing now. Shouting down women. Censorship of views.




I have literally just told a story in my previous post of freedoms I do NOT enjoy. How it affects me, my husband and children directly. Financially. Removed our freedoms to choose how we lived our lives and work. Mind firmly closed I see.

I wonder had my husband come in and told the same story would there be a different reaction.

See, feminists are often accused of abandoning reason and reacting emotionally and this is a perfect example....

A womans journey in life is an individual one, just like a man's...no one is making anyone do anything...it's all in your head and I see it way too often these days...I watched a horrific documentary about cosmetic surgery recently, the female presenter (a feminist) kept asking herself what is society doing that is making her do this (surgery)...she was doing it all of her own volition but couldn't bring herself to address her own narcissism....the mentality of a child is what she had.

I don't think women should be stopped reading romance novels, what I said was a tongue in cheek response to your utterly preposterous suggestion that women are forced into anything in this part of the world...that is delusional, women in this part of the world are free to make whatever decisions they like....unless you can present me with data that suggests men read romance novels at the same rate as women do then you really can't throw an insult at a person who suggests they do.

I love how feminists see misogyny everywhere and throw the accusation around like confetti, but have you ever spotted misandry at all? Ever call someone a misandrist?

Life is tough for both genders pretending it is not is to depart from the reality of life, but to present the problems female face in the divisive, emotive, illogical manner feminists do is what causes the push back....and why a lot more women don't consider themselves feminist....in the workplace and in life, most women know exactly what other women are capable of...

joe40

Deleted User wrote: »

For once, I'm going to make a "take it or leave it" post, because I know how this discussion goes, having been involved in such previously. I've little interest in being insulted and demeaned by posters here for posting an alternative opinion.. and I'm fully aware that is where this topic invariably leads to.

While I agree that many of the reactions to Sarah Everard were disgraceful.. there are many situations where women should be more careful with their personal safety, and their appearance. The fashion that many women choose to wear does send signals. Women's fashion, in many cases, from high heels to makeup, are designed to elicit a physical reaction in men. That's a simple fact. To ignore that, is to ignore your own responsibility for the positions you put yourself in. There is an expectation that women should be able to behave the same as men, getting drunk, and partying like crazy, without a care in the world. Or going back to a hotel room with a group of male strangers. This expectation, IMHO, is naive and dangerous. It lacks any degree of awareness that the world is not an entirely safe place.

It's not about victim blaming. It's about personal safety. Most women are far more vulnerable than men, and as such, need to take precautions for their own safety. Sure, they shouldn't have to.. but the reality is that they need to, since those aspects of reality aren't changing any time soon.

There is a trend to embrace absolutes on certain topics. If someone suggests that the woman should have been more aware of her surroundings, then that's supposedly victim blaming, when I consider it to being common sense. Women should be taking care, being aware of who is around them.

Saying that women should take care of themselves, and engage in behavior that is more careful than men, is not misogyny. It's accepting the realities that exist in the world today. I live, for the most part abroad, where I avoid behaviors which would be acceptable in the West, but cause friction, and ultimately increase the risks of violence, in the East. That's a reasonable thing to do, and yet, to suggest that women don't wear revealing clothing in questionable circumstances, is not reasonable... because women should be able to do whatever they want, wherever they want, and nobody should criticise those choices, regardless of the consequences. I could provide a wide range of examples explaining my point of view, but I know they'll be taken apart and dismissed... or reinterpreted to suit a more absolute view.

This is not to say that women need to cover themselves up, never go out, or whatever. Whenever that's pushed it's the embracing of an absolute as a way to attack anyone who suggests that women should be more careful. However, women should be encouraged to be aware of how their appearance and behavior affects people around them, and to understand that there can be unwanted reactions. Wishing for it not to happen isn't much help.

I recognise that my opinion on this topic is a minority on boards. No problem. However, I do worry about the society we are encouraging when we don't have an entirely safe environment where women can dress and behave however they like, and yet, that's the message that is being sent. Wear skimpy clothing, dance and flirt with strangers, go back to their rooms, and don't expect certain (obvious) things to happen.

In any case, I'm done. And no... I won't be responding to any replies to this post.

I know you said you were not going to respond, and that is fair enough but i'm going to throw this out for wider discussion.

I think the reason women don't need to be told about dangers is because they are all too aware of them. There is zero advice that I, as a Man, could give any woman that they do not know themselves.

Rape, sexual assault is about violence and domination. It has very little to do with normal sexual attraction. A woman trying to make herself "less attractive" or to cover up will not prevent such attacks.

We all know personal responsibility. I will teach my kids, Boy and Girl, about been careful in the real world. I think that is a given.

EmmetSpiceland

[Deleted User] wrote: »

For once, I'm going to make a "take it or leave it" post, because I know how this discussion goes, having been involved in such previously. I've little interest in being insulted and demeaned by posters here for posting an alternative opinion.. and I'm fully aware that is where this topic invariably leads to.

While I agree that many of the reactions to Sarah Everard were disgraceful.. there are many situations where women should be more careful with their personal safety, and their appearance. The fashion that many women choose to wear does send signals. Women's fashion, in many cases, from high heels to makeup, are designed to elicit a physical reaction in men. That's a simple fact. To ignore that, is to ignore your own responsibility for the positions you put yourself in. There is an expectation that women should be able to behave the same as men, getting drunk, and partying like crazy, without a care in the world. Or going back to a hotel room with a group of male strangers. This expectation, IMHO, is naive and dangerous. It lacks any degree of awareness that the world is not an entirely safe place.

It's not about victim blaming. It's about personal safety. Most women are far more vulnerable than men, and as such, need to take precautions for their own safety. Sure, they shouldn't have to.. but the reality is that they need to, since those aspects of reality aren't changing any time soon.

There is a trend to embrace absolutes on certain topics. If someone suggests that the woman should have been more aware of her surroundings, then that's supposedly victim blaming, when I consider it to being common sense. Women should be taking care, being aware of who is around them.

Saying that women should take care of themselves, and engage in behavior that is more careful than men, is not misogyny. It's accepting the realities that exist in the world today. I live, for the most part abroad, where I avoid behaviors which would be acceptable in the West, but cause friction, and ultimately increase the risks of violence, in the East. That's a reasonable thing to do, and yet, to suggest that women don't wear revealing clothing in questionable circumstances, is not reasonable... because women should be able to do whatever they want, wherever they want, and nobody should criticise those choices, regardless of the consequences. I could provide a wide range of examples explaining my point of view, but I know they'll be taken apart and dismissed... or reinterpreted to suit a more absolute view.

This is not to say that women need to cover themselves up, never go out, or whatever. Whenever that's pushed it's the embracing of an absolute as a way to attack anyone who suggests that women should be more careful. However, women should be encouraged to be aware of how their appearance and behavior affects people around them, and to understand that there can be unwanted reactions. Wishing for it not to happen isn't much help.

I recognise that my opinion on this topic is a minority on boards. No problem. However, I do worry about the society we are encouraging when we don't have an entirely safe environment where women can dress and behave however they like, and yet, that's the message that is being sent. Wear skimpy clothing, dance and flirt with strangers, go back to their rooms, and don't expect certain (obvious) things to happen.

In any case, I'm done. And no... I won't be responding to any replies to this post.

You may say it’s not about victim blaming but you’re, certainly, relieving the attackers of a good chunk of responsibility there. Men will be men.

I’m aware you said you wouldn’t be responding but, from what you said, it seems that we should continue to tell women to be afraid of men and that if they don’t dress appropriately, or have a chaperone, that men will do certain (obvious) things. And while that won’t be completely their fault it will be, a fair bit, their own fault.

Sounds to me like feminism is needed more than ever.

anewme

Teofimo98 wrote: »

Misogyny is the hatred or dislike of women in general.

Calling a woman a "fat pig" is not evidence of misogyny. It's evidence of a nasty individual being a nasty person to one person.

It was women in general not woman and part of a wider thread about women.

There were a significant number of men supporting that individual, that's back to what I said previously about there being a core of nasty people who use Boards to perpetuate that crap. B

I'm linking it here as part of the conversation that women should be able to go out and wear what they want without the fear of being attacked physically or verbally, or leered at from behind in a que at the post office.

Leg End Reject

anewme wrote: »

I don't see people commenting on how his ass looks in yoga pants, or if he has camel toe?

Jesus, that's a bulge I wouldn't want to see!

TomTomTim

Teofimo98 wrote: »

Misogyny is the hatred or dislike of women in general.

Calling a woman a "fat pig" is not evidence of misogyny. It's evidence of a nasty individual being a nasty person to one person.

If we all toughened up, people wouldn't be harmed by words. Believe in our not how sensitive or not you are is a choice to a degree. Being fragile gives bad people an easy way to get to you; if you aren't fragile they can't harm you with words. Certain posters here have shown us time and time again, that modern feminists are hyper sensitive, who can view anything and everything as attacks on women. The strong women of the world really need to fight back against these types, because if you've noticed, they always claim to speak for women, and not just feminist women. They devalue the strength of many women everyday with their desire to be treated like hypersensitive children.

anewme

Teofimo98 wrote: »

So should men be allowed to go out and wear what they want without fear of being attacked physically or verbally. Men are significantly more likely to be the subject of unprovoked physical attack than women. You are safer walking down the street as a woman than a man is.

This is the whole point of people complaining about the #notallmen hash tag on Twitter.

Highlighting something that is an issue for women does not require a but what about men answer always.

Leg End Reject

anewme wrote: »

This is the whole point of people complaining about the #notallmen hash tag on Twitter.

Highlighting something that is an issue for women does not require a but what about men answer always.

If men posted about family law discrimination do you think no women would respond and give their side? We'd all sit back carefully considering all the views and opinions expressed and not hit back at any criticism?

EmmetSpiceland

Teofimo98 wrote: »

There will always be people who attack others, the empowering choice to make is personal responsibility. Be aware of what you can't change and be aware of what you can change, ie your own actions.

This true but we are still in a time when a woman’s underwear is being waved around in a courtroom to tarnish her character.

stefanovich

anewme wrote: »

I don't see people commenting on how his ass looks in yoga pants, or if he has camel toe?

I wonder what the reaction would be if he showed a bit of testicle cleavage in public.

I suppose if he gets stared at it can always shout "pervert".

JimmyVik

I just read this.

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/women-safety-walking-home-5378184-Mar2021/

I love this part
"So, this piece is less for women, and more for men. If you are a man and you’re reading this, ask yourself, have you come across these guys, honestly? Have you sat in their company, knowing there was something ‘off’ but letting it slide? Have you supported the women in your life who’ve suffered at the hands of perpetrators? Are you a father of boys and have you had open discussions about consent, respect?"

This fear walking home is not unique to females. And aiming the article at men only as people who can do something about it is pathetic and sexist.

I am male and I too worked in a city center niteclub ion Dublin and had to walk home at 3am after closing.
I used to try and walk home with someone else if i could but people lived in different directions.
And I used to be sh1tting my self on the way home EVERY NIGHT. And then it happened. I was badly beaten up once, two other staff were beaten up on their way home at other times. One pulled off his bike, he was beaten so badly he ended up in hospital and they took his bike. so my fears were well founded. And I can say i was, lets call it ACCOSTED at least once a week on the way home after work.

tbh I wouldnt walk around in the city center on my own at night these days either.
There are bad barstards out there. There always will be.

Leg End Reject

TomTomTim wrote: »

If we all toughened up, people wouldn't be harmed by words. Believe in our not how sensitive or not you are is a choice to a degree. Being fragile gives bad people an easy way to get to you; if you aren't fragile they can't harm you with words. Certain posters here have shown us time and time again, that modern feminists are hyper sensitive, who can view anything and everything as attacks on women. The strong women of the world really need to fight back against these types, because if you've noticed, they always claim to speak for women, and not just feminist women. They devalue the strength of many women everyday with their desire to be treated like hypersensitive children.

I wouldn't even say toughening up. I've said it before, but if everyone could acknowledge that men and women are different biologically, and that not all men are the same as each other, nor are all women.

Accept that equality of access does not correspond with equality of outcome, because not all women want traditional male roles, or to be CEOs. For some reason CEO seems to be mentioned as proof of a glass ceiling, that's why I included it here.

anewme

TomTomTim wrote: »

If we all toughened up, people wouldn't be harmed by words. Believe in our not how sensitive or not you are is a choice to a degree. Being fragile gives bad people an easy way to get to you; if you aren't fragile they can't harm you with words. Certain posters here have shown us time and time again, that modern feminists are hyper sensitive, who can view anything and everything as attacks on women. The strong women of the world really need to fight back against these types, because if you've noticed, they always claim to speak for women, and not just feminist women. They devalue the strength of many women everyday with their desire to be treated like hypersensitive children.

No, I havent noticed any modern feminists speaking for women. I havent noticed any modern feminists at all.

Telling people to toughen up is same as telling someone with depression, they've nothing to be depressed about.

Using words like "fragile', "hyper sensitive" indicate that someone must be weak, if they call out bad behaviour. I'd see it as the opposite.

Silentcorner

Silentcorner wrote: »

A womans journey in life is an individual one, just like a man's...no one is making anyone do anything...it's all in your head and I see it way too often these days...I watched a horrific documentary about cosmetic surgery recently, the female presenter (a feminist) kept asking herself what is society doing that is making her do this (surgery)...she was doing it all of her own volition but couldn't bring herself to address her own narcissism....the mentality of a child is what she had.

I think there's a offloading of responsibility for the environment that women, and their associated groups, have created. Offloading any responsibility for how it's developed on to men, in general.

anewme's comments about that other thread kinda bring it into focus. The fashion industry for decades aimed at creating unrealistic expectations for women's beauty. The styles produced were often designed to attract the attention of men, the perspective being that a man's attention to a woman's beauty was all important. Some women wanted to attract a husband, a boyfriend, or someone to buy her drinks in a bar. The clothing and makeup was developed to encourage favorable reactions based on their physical beauty. Which they took advantage of. It was in their interests to do so.

But then, we get to social media. Instagram, or the internet, is full of women posting images of themselves, and promoting various types of beauty. It's a multi-billion dollar industry in itself. Women have managed to use their appearance as a way to support themselves. Which is great for women.. and to a lesser extent, the men who engage in the same behavior.

Which is amazing considering the consumer/purchasing power that women have in the western world... and yet, all of these systems which are based on demand, are not that way because women wanted them to be that way.

It's like the claims to the idea of objectification, or objectifying women as sex objects, or other ideas. They (and men too) have encouraged society to view women based on their physical attributes, while also condemning anyone who judges or reacts to them, based on their physical appearance.

I find the whole things very interesting. You're damned if you don't appreciate women for all the things they do to make themselves beautiful, but you're damned if you do appreciate them, but not in the way, they (individually) want to be appreciated. And you're damned if you don't appreciate women who don't match the social conditioning all men have been exposed to.

There is a... passing off of responsibility when it comes to women's choices in life. Everything is external. Women in the past had no influence at all, and the men created the foundation for beauty.. and forced that expectation on women.. and yet, it was more often than not, other women who forced women to conform to the traditional viewpoints. And yet, that will be dismissed, and it was men's fault. Just as now, it's men's fault that women want to be slim (but can't), it's men's fault that they need to spend so much time and money on clothes and makeup (but women do it for themselves, not for men), etc etc etc.

It's like, earlier, when we were talking about gender stereotypes, and the claim was made that hard questions needed to be asked about males encouraging women into traditional roles. And yet, mothers spend the most time with their children. Our teachers are predominately female. Our society, in terms of media, is extremely pro-female. And yet, nobody asks whether it's women who are encouraging girls into particular roles.. nope, it's something else entirely. Must be.

It's interesting how the "culture" of women has evolved.

JimmyVik

JimmyVik wrote: »

I just read this.

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/women-safety-walking-home-5378184-Mar2021/

I love this part
"So, this piece is less for women, and more for men. If you are a man and you’re reading this, ask yourself, have you come across these guys, honestly? Have you sat in their company, knowing there was something ‘off’ but letting it slide? Have you supported the women in your life who’ve suffered at the hands of perpetrators? Are you a father of boys and have you had open discussions about consent, respect?"

This fear walking home is not unique to females. And aiming the article at men only as people who can do something about it is pathetic and sexist.

I am male and I too worked in a city center niteclub ion Dublin and had to walk home at 3am after closing.
I used to try and walk home with someone else if i could but people lived in different directions.
And I used to be sh1tting my self on the way home EVERY NIGHT. And then it happened. I was badly beaten up once, two other staff were beaten up on their way home at other times. One pulled off his bike, he was beaten so badly he ended up in hospital and they took his bike. so my fears were well founded. And I can say i was, lets call it ACCOSTED at least once a week on the way home after work.

tbh I wouldnt walk around in the city center on my own at night these days either.
There are bad barstards out there. There always will be.

Careful now you’ll be ‘victim blaming’ if you merely suggest not going down dark alleys

EmmetSpiceland

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

You may say it’s not about victim blaming but you’re, certainly, relieving the attackers of a good chunk of responsibility there. Men will be men.

Thank you. You've highlighted exactly why I won't be continuing with this discussion. I didn't state a single thing about absolving the men or the aggressors of responsibility. Absolutes. Some people just have the need to push for them, even to the point of suggesting things that weren't said.

anewme

Teofimo98 wrote: »

If you get upset by insult of strangers on the Internet then you do have a problem. That's due to insecurity.

I"d say people threatened by others speaking out in whatever fora are more likely to be insecure.

FunLover18

Teofimo98 wrote: »

There will always be people who attack others, the empowering choice to make is personal responsibility. Be aware of what you can't change and be aware of what you can change, ie your own actions.

Feminism is not going to stop people being attacked. Thugs who attack people don't care about feminism ideology.

We're not talking just any old attacks here, we're talking sexual attacks and the idea that what a women wears sends out signals that draw attackers is dangerous and doesn't address the issue. Women should be able to wear what they want and walk where they want the same as men but the last few days I've seen dozens of women on social media share their stories of how they've had to get off their bus early or walk a different way home to avoid men who are following or harrassing them, and how they wish they could go walking at night. Men need to take responsibility for their own actions and attitudes and you can turn that around and say so do women, they need to be be conscious of what they wear but no, they don't and they shouldn't have to.