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Modern Feminism-Good for Society?
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HYes I'd say they are. But if you you get upset by people saying mean things on the Internet then you have to ask yourself why that is. It's insecurity.
But surely the people making the "mean" comments are the insecure ones?
Lack of self confidence themselves - so easier to feel better by dragging others down.
Thats more obvious from what I can see.0 -
I've never said that women should be conscious of what they wear. I don't care what women or anyone wears.
However, one should always be aware of reality. If someone chooses to put themselves into a dangerous or risky position, such as not looking left ans right at the zebra crossing because cars should stop, then that's their choice. I don't care, they are putting themselves at risk not me. If they get knocked down by the car that's their problem and their entitled to increase their risk of being knocked down by a car if that's what they want. Good luck to them.
There will always be people who do bad things. So I will always take reasonable measures to protect myself. If other people are happy to take on greater risk of being victims of crimes that's their business. I wish them beat of luck.
What reasonable measure should a woman take to avoid getting harrassed or raped?0 -
I've never said that women should be conscious of what they wear. I don't care what women or anyone wears.
However, one should always be aware of reality. If someone chooses to put themselves into a dangerous or risky position, such as not looking left ans right at the zebra crossing because cars should stop, then that's their choice. I don't care, they are putting themselves at risk not me. If they get knocked down by the car that's their problem and their entitled to increase their risk of being knocked down by a car if that's what they want. Good luck to them.
There will always be people who do bad things. So I will always take reasonable measures to protect myself. If other people are happy to take on greater risk of being victims of crimes that's their business. I wish them beat of luck.
Big difference between choosing what to wear or where to go and stepping out under a car, unless you are going out with a blindfold.
The example used on Twitter in respect of Sarah's murder was the man who likened women going out alone to leaving your car outside with the keys in the ignition. Your example is in the same vein.0 -
Big difference between choosing what to wear or where to go and stepping out under a car, unless you are going out with a blindfold.
The example used on Twitter in respect of Sarah's murder was the man who likened women going out alone to leaving your car outside with the keys in the ignition. Your example is in the same vein.
Women need to be pragmatic rather than idealistic. I have no problem with women wearing whatever they want unless it is obscene.
But, let's say you are in Pakistan. I'd say your best bet would be to dress modestly. I'd reconsider the bikini because you could be imprisoned or stoned to death.0 -
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That's what I said, they are insecure, but so too are the people reacting so strongly to the comments. When you are secure in yourself mean comments are water off a duck's back.
Well, some people have a bit more gumption and are happy to challenge the 'poison' views to make things better.
The only way things will improve is by calling out these views. Of course, there are people threatened by this as they like belittling others and dont want to change.. Insecure, as you say.0 -
Well, some people have a bit more gumption and are happy to challenge the 'poison' views to make things better.
The only way things will improve is by calling out these views. Of course, there are people threatened by this as they like belittling others and dont want to change.. Insecure, as you say.
It's one thing to call people out on their views, it's another to claim that they hate women. You should challenge those kind of comments which belittle others.. but making them into something they're not, is something else entirely.0 -
It depends on a case by case basis.
That's not much use to the women reading this thread though is it?
This is more a general point and in fairness it was largely inspired by what klaz said but I know they probably won't reply. There seems to be a general acceptance that this is how the world works, women should adapt and take into consideration the signals they're sending to men, they need to be conscious that hanging out with largely men may not be safe. This isn't the case and clearly feminism does still have a long way to go. Men can change the way they view women, men can work to make women feel safe on their company. This can be done be addressing their own behaviour or attitudes and as well as of those around them. They can control their sexual urges. People may not want to call it victim blaming but if I'm a rapist and I'm reading some of the comments here, I'm thinking "yeh, she was sending out signals", "she should have been more careful", etc, etc.0 -
FunLover18 wrote: »That's not much use to the women reading this thread though is it?
This is more a general point and in fairness it was largely inspired by what klaz said but I know they probably won't reply. There seems to be a general acceptance that this is how the world works, women should adapt and take into consideration the signals they're sending to men, they need to be conscious that hanging out with largely men may not be safe. This isn't the case and clearly feminism does still have a long way to go. Men can change the way they view women, men can work to make women feel safe on their company. This can be done be addressing their own behaviour or attitudes and as well as of those around them. They can control their sexual urges. People may not want to call it victim blaming but if I'm a rapist and I'm reading some of the comments here, I'm thinking "yeh, she was sending out signals", "she should have been more careful", etc, etc.
Interesting, and timely, read in this opinion “piece” on The Journal today:
“Our reader shares two terrifying experiences walking home in Dublin and London and asks if we are doing enough to free women from this fear.”
https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/women-safety-walking-home-5378184-Mar2021/“It is not blood that makes you Irish but a willingness to be part of the Irish nation” - Thomas Davis
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EmmetSpiceland wrote: »Interesting, and timely, read in this opinion “piece” on The Journal today:
“Our reader shares two terrifying experiences walking home in Dublin and London and asks if we are doing enough to free women from this fear.”
https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/women-safety-walking-home-5378184-Mar2021/
I had just seen the headline myself.0 -
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EmmetSpiceland wrote: »Interesting, and timely, read in this opinion “piece” on The Journal today:
“Our reader shares two terrifying experiences walking home in Dublin and London and asks if we are doing enough to free women from this fear.”
https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/women-safety-walking-home-5378184-Mar2021/
This was my reaction to it that i posted
I love this part
"So, this piece is less for women, and more for men. If you are a man and you’re reading this, ask yourself, have you come across these guys, honestly? Have you sat in their company, knowing there was something ‘off’ but letting it slide? Have you supported the women in your life who’ve suffered at the hands of perpetrators? Are you a father of boys and have you had open discussions about consent, respect?"
This fear walking home is not unique to females. And aiming the article at men only as people who can do something about it is pathetic and sexist.
I am male and I too worked in a city center niteclub ion Dublin and had to walk home at 3am after closing.
I used to try and walk home with someone else if i could but people lived in different directions.
And I used to be sh1tting my self on the way home EVERY NIGHT. And then it happened. I was badly beaten up once, two other staff were beaten up on their way home at other times. One pulled off his bike, he was beaten so badly he ended up in hospital and they took his bike. so my fears were well founded. And I can say i was, lets call it ACCOSTED at least once a week on the way home after work.
tbh I wouldnt walk around in the city center on my own at night these days either.
There are bad barstards out there. There always will be.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »People can be critical of women without it being misogyny.
That's part of the problem really. This belief that women should somehow be above criticism.
And a few posters saying negative things about women or how they behave is not representative of the male gender.
Well, obviously. I dont think anyone is arguing otherwise here but from wherever it was that suggested to you that this is the case, consider this; it does seem that many arguing against the need/value of feminism on this thread have used a broad brush to categorize all women advocates as being some form of radicals with a persecution complex.
We have had people claim that any form of women's advocacy is motivated by a hatred of men, that modern day situations are much less serious than they were in the past, with the inference being that they really shouldn't be complaining.
The argument of pay disparity being discussed in education was suggested to be a form of indoctrination and that women who seek successful careers are largely doing so in spite of their inherent nature and motivation towards motherhood. One poster suggested that the problem with feminism is that it doesn't consider the plight of the husband like that somehow should be considered of primary importance when talking about women in the workplace.
So, let's be clear, the pushback against these views is not suggesting that women should be above criticism, or that they as a gender are inherently and absolutely correct on every topic but that they are entitled to advocate for their position without being collectively dismissed nonchalantly with a form of suggestion that they return to their church of victimhood to continue their prayers or can only speak up if they have a 5 point plan on how the men in their lives will not be negatively impacted should women see any progress.0 -
Tell me how wrote: »Well, obviously. I dont think anyone is arguing otherwise here but from wherever it was that suggested to you that this is the case, consider this; it does seem that many arguing against the need/value of feminism on this thread have used a broad brush to categorize all women advocates as being some form of radicals with a persecution complex.
We have had people claim that any form of women's advocacy is motivated by a hatred of men, that modern day situations are much less serious than they were in the past, with the inference being that they really shouldn't be complaining.
The argument of pay disparity being discussed in education was suggested to be a form of indoctrination and that women who seek successful careers are largely doing so in spite of their inherent nature and motivation towards motherhood. One poster suggested that the problem with feminism is that it doesn't consider the plight of the husband like that somehow should be considered of primary importance when talking about women in the workplace.
So, let's be clear, the pushback against these views is not suggesting that women should be above criticism, or that they as a gender are inherently and absolutely correct on every topic but that they are entitled to advocate for their position without being collectively dismissed nonchalantly with a form of suggestion that they return to their church of victimhood to continue their prayers or can only speak up if they have a 5 point plan on how the men in their lives will not be negatively impacted should women see any progress.
It's actually not so obvious these days. In today's world it's worse than before we're it's needed to label people quickly.
Disagree with a woman, you're sexist and/or mysoginist
Disagree with a woman of colour, sexist and/or mysoginist and racist
Disagree with a man of colour, you're racist
in today's woke society all white males are privileged (:rolleyes:) and don't have the rights to express a view that is contrary to woke opinions.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »While I agree that many of the reactions to Sarah Everard were disgraceful.. there are many situations where women should be more careful with their personal safety, and their appearance. The fashion that many women choose to wear does send signals. Women's fashion, in many cases, from high heels to makeup, are designed to elicit a physical reaction in men. That's a simple fact. To ignore that, is to ignore your own responsibility for the positions you put yourself in. There is an expectation that women should be able to behave the same as men, getting drunk, and partying like crazy, without a care in the world. Or going back to a hotel room with a group of male strangers. This expectation, IMHO, is naive and dangerous. It lacks any degree of awareness that the world is not an entirely safe place...............
........................ Women should be taking care, being aware of who is around them............
........................to suggest that women don't wear revealing clothing in questionable circumstances, is not reasonable... because women should be able to do whatever they want, wherever they want, and nobody should criticise those choices, regardless of the consequences..................
....................However, women should be encouraged to be aware of how their appearance and behavior affects people around them.................
............... I do worry about the society we are encouraging when we don't have an entirely safe environment where women can dress and behave however they like, and yet, that's the message that is being sent. Wear skimpy clothing, dance and flirt with strangers, go back to their rooms, and don't expect certain (obvious) things to happen...........
Women need to take a lot of responsibility it seems for how other people behave.
Funny that the same poster is all for women's rights to go wherever they want, when they are intimidated by members from other religions.
I wonder where the line is for this particular man? Which clothes exactly should women be aware of that cause a involuntary (bad) reaction in men? And which clothes are ok, and only cause reactions in certain men?0 -
This was my reaction to it that i posted
I love this part
"So, this piece is less for women, and more for men. If you are a man and you’re reading this, ask yourself, have you come across these guys, honestly? Have you sat in their company, knowing there was something ‘off’ but letting it slide? Have you supported the women in your life who’ve suffered at the hands of perpetrators? Are you a father of boys and have you had open discussions about consent, respect?"
This fear walking home is not unique to females. And aiming the article at men only as people who can do something about it is pathetic and sexist.
I am male and I too worked in a city center niteclub ion Dublin and had to walk home at 3am after closing.
I used to try and walk home with someone else if i could but people lived in different directions.
And I used to be sh1tting my self on the way home EVERY NIGHT. And then it happened. I was badly beaten up once, two other staff were beaten up on their way home at other times. One pulled off his bike, he was beaten so badly he ended up in hospital and they took his bike. so my fears were well founded. And I can say i was, lets call it ACCOSTED at least once a week on the way home after work.
tbh I wouldnt walk around in the city center on my own at night these days either.
There are bad barstards out there. There always will be.
Statistically speaking men have a higher chance of getting attacked in public too, something which articles like this always over look.
Fewer women than men fall victim to violence“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov0 -
It's actually not so obvious these days. In today's world it's worse than before we're it's needed to label people quickly.
Disagree with a woman, you're sexist and/or mysoginist
Disagree with a woman of colour, sexist and/or mysoginist and racist
Disagree with a man of colour, you're racist
in today's woke society all white males are privileged (:rolleyes:) and don't have the rights to express a view that is contrary to woke opinions.
You've just quickly used the 'woke' label to try to illustrate your point of people quickly using labels....
This is why the Piers Morgan example is relevant in this thread, he could not handle it when he had to experience what he had been doing out fir years and for many of those who rail against women advocating for themselves, they quickly and loudly complain that men are being targeted without realising that A, that is not the case or B, just how long whatever topic being discussed has negatively been experienced by women.0 -
Statistically speaking men have a higher chance of getting attacked in public too, something which articles like this always over look.
Fewer women than men fall victim to violence
What's your point? No one is saying men aren't the victims of attack.0 -
It's actually not so obvious these days. In today's world it's worse than before we're it's needed to label people quickly.
Disagree with a woman, you're sexist and/or mysoginist
Disagree with a woman of colour, sexist and/or mysoginist and racist
Disagree with a man of colour, you're racist
in today's woke society all white males are privileged (:rolleyes:) and don't have the rights to express a view that is contrary to woke opinions.
Its worse than that.
If they do express a contrary view, they will be hunted down and their employer, friends etc harassed, until that person is left a lonely outcast on the edge of society. Ultimate gang bullying.0 -
FunLover18 wrote: »What's your point? No one is saying men aren't the victims of attack.
Would you say that article was being unfair on men, even sexist?0 -
FunLover18 wrote: »What's your point? No one is saying men aren't the victims of attack.
The whole point of articles as such is to frame is as a female issue, and not a people issue. I've seen many articles like this and they are always about women.“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov0 -
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Statistically speaking men have a higher chance of getting attacked in public too, something which articles like this always over look.
Fewer women than men fall victim to violence
The irony of this sort of commentary is that it shows where men and women should be aligned.
Women are saying - male violence against women is a problem in society and we wont accept it. And of course they are right.
And you are saying, hang on - male violence against men is possibly an even bigger problem.
But then, instead of agreeing with women that this is an issue - rather its, lets castigate women for playing the victim here, we want to play the bigger victim.
Which in my view, is the bullying intolerant attitude that in its extreme form is manifested in..... violence.0 -
Its worse than that.
If they do express a contrary view, they will be hunted down and their employer, friends etc harassed, until that person is left a lonely outcast on the edge of society. Ultimate gang bullying.
That's a staggering amount of hyperbole for one short post.0 -
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Totally agree. As a man speaking up I get shot down & painted as a weak feminist MAN!
The other thread I had started & debated specifically & expansively was about men harming men, yet men were keen to blame women for the way men treat guys. They kept deflecting it onto women - mothers & partners & in particular & how women need them strong.
They did not want to improve mankind - just bash the topic.No, I havent noticed any modern feminists speaking for women. I havent noticed any modern feminists at all.
Telling people to toughen up is same as telling someone with depression, they've nothing to be depressed about.
Using words like "fragile', "hyper sensitive" indicate that someone must be weak, if they call out bad behaviour. I'd see it as the opposite.
AS FOR THIS ... ALL LIES.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058042337
I debated this to much abuse & disdain.
I tackled all their male chauvinism against me; a member of their own gender but they had to extend it to women too.
I also tacked that alongside the damage men are inflicting on manKIND!One eyed Jack wrote: »You appear to want all of the freedoms that women enjoy, but you see nothing of the responsibilities that women have, such as taking care of the men in their lives being one example that you wondered was it still a thing. It is of course.
Substantial defending of the plight of men was made by me - to great extent, but was shouted down & met with every diversional or game playing tactic including circling & asking the exact same questions hoping for a self contradiction !
Desperately clutching at straws !
When that failed I was accused of being childish for apparently not accepting or living up to a man's role / manning up
Men know there is something rotten especially once they passed school going age.
Older men know if someone will only fight them with considered words that eventually they are left to try to enrage & provoke, if that does not work they will try like Piers / Trump to cancel you.It was responses like this that had you dismissed on that other thread you speak of. ...
Add in the avoidance of points raised and it becomes frustrating and ultimately pointless to engage and then as night follows day that's construed as "aggressive" by the entrenched worldview holder and they usually leave thinking they've scored some victory. Entrenched worldview intact.
It's extremely common a tactic and can be seen across a range of subjects, but it does seem to be on the increase.0 -
Totally agree. As a man speaking up I get shot down & painted as a weak feminist MAN!
The other thread I had started & debated specifically & expansively was about men harming men, yet men were keen to blame women for the way men treat guys. They kept deflecting it onto women - mothers & partners & in particular & how women need them strong.
They did not want to improve mankind - just bash the topic.
AS FOR THIS ... ALL LIES.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058042337
I debated this to much abuse & disdain.
I tackled all their male chauvinism against me; a member of their own gender but they had to extend it to women too.
I also tacked that alongside the damage men are inflicting on manKIND!
Substantial defending of the plight of men was made by me - to great extent, but was shouted down & met with every diversional or game playing tactic including circling & asking the exact same questions hoping for a self contradiction !
Desperately clutching at straws !
When that failed I was accused of being childish for apparently not accepting or living up to a man's role / manning up
Men know there is something rotten especially once they passed school going age.
Older men know if someone will only fight them with considered words that eventually they are left to try to enrage & provoke, if that does not work they will try like Piers / Trump to cancel you.
You're whole post was ridiculous, and you were rightly mocked for it.It means things like expecting others to man up, talk is for women, men are doers, men should earn more, men don't wear pink ever and boys should play sport etc. and the list goes on. They will react disapprovingly and often in a premeditated manner in order to control and remove undesirable traits or behaviour. It can put pressure on others to reach unrealistic expectations and seek to diminish others.
The fact that you have issues with the majority of the above is the issue itself. There's nothing wrong with nearly everything you've listed. Feminine men are free to behave how they like, but the problem is men as such often want to destroy masculinity as a whole. Why aren't you happy simply being as you are? Why do you want other men to be like you too? Something that's often overlooked by posters like yourself is that many men get great satisfaction out of being masculine men, if they abandoned masculinity they'd be miserable and deeply depressed. Embracing the sensitive male stereotype doesn't work for most of us. If it works for you, great, but don't force the rest of us down your road.“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov0 -
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Tell me how wrote: »Well, obviously. I dont think anyone is arguing otherwise here but from wherever it was that suggested to you that this is the case, consider this; it does seem that many arguing against the need/value of feminism on this thread have used a broad brush to categorize all women advocates as being some form of radicals with a persecution complex.
Well, obviously, the context in which I said it matters. Considering we were discussing another poster, and how demeaning or insulting remarks, were determined to be a form of hate speech, and a hatred of women.
As for the broad brush being used, the objection or acceptance of that seems rather selective, as many here have the opinion that feminism represents all women (from both sides arguing).We have had people claim that any form of women's advocacy is motivated by a hatred of men,
Where? I haven't seen that, or are you exaggerating?that modern day situations are much less serious than they were in the past, with the inference being that they really shouldn't be complaining.
Depends on what issues we're talking about, doesn't it? Rather than a blanket statement over all the issues put forward by feminists.The argument of pay disparity being discussed in education was suggested to be a form of indoctrination and that women who seek successful careers are largely doing so in spite of their inherent nature and motivation towards motherhood. One poster suggested that the problem with feminism is that it doesn't consider the plight of the husband like that somehow should be considered of primary importance when talking about women in the workplace.
Really? I remember it different. It was about the roles and expectations of female students in deciding what to study, and what careers they entered, along with the dissatisfaction that women weren't better represented in many industries.... combined with the belief that there was some force reinforcing gender stereotypes. no?So, let's be clear, the pushback against these views is not suggesting that women should be above criticism, or that they as a gender are inherently and absolutely correct on every topic but that they are entitled to advocate for their position without being collectively dismissed nonchalantly with a form of suggestion that they return to their church of victimhood to continue their prayers or can only speak up if they have a 5 point plan on how the men in their lives will not be negatively impacted should women see any progress.
Ahh well, I disagree. I've covered this numerous times already and it's repeatedly being brought back up directed at me, but in a slightly modified manner..0 -
FunLover18 wrote: »EDIT: The article with statistics didn't load properly for me earlier so deleting this post until I have read it.
Emmet brought the whole point up to further his misogyny narrative, pretending otherwise is outright dishonest.
I just happened upon this after my previous post, not sure of the veracity in honesty.
https://twitter.com/r_o_farrell/status/1369987848724680708“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov0 -
Its worse than that.
If they do express a contrary view, they will be hunted down and their employer, friends etc harassed, until that person is left a lonely outcast on the edge of society. Ultimate gang bullying.
Reads like a Liam Neeson script.......I will find you.
Or that bit at the end of The Incredible Hulk episodes from the 70's where Dr. David Banner walked down an endless road... alone, forlorn and outcast, while the sad tinkly piano music played.
Persecution complex stuff.0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »Where? I haven't seen that, or are you exaggerating?
Literally from the same page.Its worse than that.
If they do express a contrary view, they will be hunted down and their employer, friends etc harassed, until that person is left a lonely outcast on the edge of society. Ultimate gang bullying.0
![[Deleted User]](/applications/dashboard/design/images/defaulticon.png)
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