Modern Feminism-Good for Society?

JimmyVik

anewme wrote: »

Reads like a Liam Neeson script.......I will find you.

Or that bit at the end of The Incredible Hulk episodes from the 70's where Dr. David Banner walked down an endless road... alone, forlorn and outcast, while the sad tinkly piano music played.

Persecution complex stuff.

Thats cancel culture for you. Dont pretend it isnt a problem.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

Literally from the same page.

One that came after you had posted... and also doesn't match your claim.

"We have had people claim that any form of women's advocacy is motivated by a hatred of men"

His statement doesn't confirm what you said.

Skippyme

That was a charming reply where you just shoot down the topic & say there is nothing wrong.

The boys will be boys approach is what leads to the cult style following that Toxic Masculinity has harboured for so long.
You only have to see what Piers & Trump have got away with for so long, & with blind unquestioned support by people who just like good old fashioned no nonsense ( so they say ) normal behaviour.

Do you know what ... people don't enjoy being abused whether they are weak men according to some* or feminine as you've decided it to be.

Masculinity does not need constant man box rules.

TomTomTim wrote: »

You're whole post was ridiculous, and you were rightly mocked for it.

Women & different ethnicities never enjoyed being mocked or kept in their place.


You think that men can be less of a man by your estimations as you've brought femininity into it but as long as they don't stand up for themselves or other guys outside proper masculinity.

Many men suffer due to being ' rightly mocked ' per you.

This is like when women used to be asking for it until people took a stand.

Your reply more than infers that it is okay to belittle, shun or psychologically encourage more healthy old style macho narrative.

If women had given up on men & the sexism was accepted long ago & forevermore then women would still be back where they were.

I don't want to deal with men's Toxic Masculinity ( not to be confused with Masculinity ) but it is far too prevalent.
I would need to live under a rock to avoid those that live in caves.

As for you being happy winning friends & discouraging the spread of my new age masculinity because of what worked for generations of men - it didn't.

It restricted men, yes you grew into it & got comfy knowing your role & certain of your trajectory in life but at some unknown as well as expected costs to yourself. But you're chill with it all.

It affects others though including other men.

They may not even be feminine men but whether Yes/NO, men are suffering due to shackles of psychological, mental, emotional / physical abuse from men.

Women were expected at one time to put up with rape in marriage.

Men should just suck it up now.
Fellow males can support chauvinism - as long as it is merely against other men.

TomTomTim wrote: »

The fact that you have issues with the majority of the above is the issue itself. There's nothing wrong with nearly everything you've listed. Feminine men are free to behave how they like, but the problem is men as such often want to destroy masculinity as a whole. Why aren't you happy simply being as you are? Why do you want other men to be like you too? Something that's often overlooked by posters like yourself is that many men get great satisfaction out of being masculine men, if they abandoned masculinity they'd be miserable and deeply depressed. Embracing the sensitive male stereotype doesn't work for most of us. If it works for you, great, but don't force the rest of us down your road.

stefanovich

Skippyme wrote: »

That was a charming reply where you just shoot down the topic & say there is nothing wrong.

The boys will be boys approach is what leads to the cult style following that Toxic Masculinity has harboured for so long.
You only have to see what Piers & Trump have got away with for so long, & with blind unquestioned support by people who just like good old fashioned no nonsense ( so they say ) normal behaviour.

Do you know what ... people don't enjoy being abused whether they are weak men according to some* or feminine as you've decided it to be.

Masculinity does not need constant man box rules.




Women & different ethnicities never enjoyed being mocked or kept in their place.


You think that men can be less of a man by your estimations as you've brought femininity into it but as long as they don't stand up for themselves or other guys outside proper masculinity.

Many men suffer due to being ' rightly mocked ' per you.

This is like when women used to be asking for it until people took a stand.

Your reply more than infers that it is okay to belittle, shun or psychologically encourage more healthy old style macho narrative.

If women had given up on men & the sexism was accepted long ago & forevermore then women would still be back where they were.

I don't want to deal with men's Toxic Masculinity ( not to be confused with Masculinity ) but it is far too prevalent.
I would need to live under a rock to avoid those that live in caves.

As for you being happy winning friends & discouraging the spread of my new age masculinity because of what worked for generations of men - it didn't.

It restricted men, yes you grew into it & got comfy knowing your role & certain of your trajectory in life but at some unknown as well as expected costs to yourself. But you're chill with it all.

It affects others though including other men.

They may not even be feminine men but whether Yes/NO, men are suffering due to shackles of psychological, mental, emotional / physical abuse from men.

Women were expected at one time to put up with rape in marriage.

Men should just suck it up now.
Fellow males can support chauvinism - as long as it is merely against other men.

Seeing as testosterone levels are plummeting we won't need to worry too much about masculinity for much longer.

vriesmays

They're only plummeting in the West.

anewme

JimmyVik wrote: »

Thats cancel culture for you. Dont pretend it isnt a problem.

Would you ever stop, cancel culture, woke, woke-ism, woke clergy...the wokey cokey...

Ironically, the sad tinkley music at the end of The Hulk Episodes is called The Lonely Man.

He suffered terrible racism, did our Doctor David. Green people had it bad back then.....:pac:

Sleepy

Tell me how wrote: »

it does seem that many arguing against the need/value of feminism on this thread have used a broad brush to categorize all women advocates as being some form of radicals with a persecution complex.

I'm someone who doesn't see the need for feminism in the developed world and sees it has not only lacking in value, but in actually having a detrimental effect on our society. I don't tend to categorise all those who assign the label of feminist to themselves as being the same though.

Views as to what feminism actually is (or should be) diverge wildly amongst the movement and this is both a factor of it's success and a factor in why it's so easy to dismiss the movement as a group of whiny misandrists who don't want to accept responsibility for their own lives.

"Traditional" feminists who view the movement as an egalitarian one that pursues equality between genders (something I'd agree with but argue has been achieved in Ireland decades ago with the possible exception of right to an abortion - which was finally achieved three years ago) have allowed the extremists to share their platform: communists arguing for equality of outcome rather than opportunity; the perpetual victims who believe women should bear no responsibility for the consequences of their choices or actions; the grudge holders who think future generations of men should pay the price for the sins of their grandparents; the misandrists who think all women should be lesbians and only small numbers of men should be allowed live to be harvested for their semen etc.

Rarely, if ever, do we hear "moderate" feminists opposing the extremes in their ranks. Rather ironically the first analogy for this that comes to mind is that of the American Republican Party who share this hesitancy to call out the sexists, racists and nutjobs in their ranks!

In much the same way that Trump was able to claim power with the support of his "basket of deplorables", the feminist movement has never refused the support of it's undesirable elements and so now, just like the "South Park Republicans" in the US who find themselves being being branded as being sexist, racist or bigoted against LGBTQ people thanks to the actions of Trump's supporters, Feminists are going to find themselves being associated with the actions and words of the worst elements of their own movement.

It's not a position I have much sympathy for tbh. Feminists tend to be very quick to use this same tactic to denounce Male Rights Advocates by associating them with Incels, Red Pillers and the like so until such time as they start calling out the misandrists and lunatics in their own movement, they're going to be associated with them.

stefanovich

vriesmays wrote: »

They're only plummeting in the West.

So we can import masculinity then when we need it. Hope it's not toxic.

joe40

dogbert27 wrote: »

It's actually not so obvious these days. In today's world it's worse than before we're it's needed to label people quickly.

Disagree with a woman, you're sexist and/or mysoginist
Disagree with a woman of colour, sexist and/or mysoginist and racist
Disagree with a man of colour, you're racist

in today's woke society all white males are privileged (:rolleyes:) and don't have the rights to express a view that is contrary to woke opinions.

Thats simply not true. Plenty of differing opinions are expressed all the time.

.

vriesmays

vriesmays wrote: »

They're only plummeting in the West.

And Asia. Pollution is doing a lot of work to decrease testosterone, and the encouragement of very feminine kinds of males.

FunLover18

FunLover18 wrote: »

EDIT: The article with statistics didn't load properly for me earlier so deleting this post until I have read it.

Ok so I've now read the article and statistics in full:

In relation to TheJournal article it is written about females experiences in the wake of an abduction and probable murder of a woman as she walked home. The statistics article posted to make the point that men are more likely to get attacked states in the first paragraph that "Women are twice as likely as men to fall victim to sexual violence" and it is sexual violence women are most afraid of so I really don't see any harm in TJ article addressing it as a women's issue.

Are the articles you see about women also written by women? Instead of criticising women for writing about articles from a female perspective, maybe ask why men aren't writing articles about the fear the men face walking home alone.

I do find it interesting that though that cited statistic was "in the street" and anecdotal evidence (and the article back it up) would suggest that women do actually take more precautions, they avoid walking alone at night, etc so I do wonder if there is a correlation there. Perhaps men are likely to get attacked in the street because they don't live in fear of it as this article suggests a lot of women do, and as such they don't take the same precautions.

JimmyVik

Tell me how wrote: »

Literally from the same page.

Do you think perhaps you might be making a mountain out of a molehill?

stefanovich

Deleted User wrote: »

And Asia. Pollution is doing a lot of work to decrease testosterone, and the encouragement of very feminine kinds of males.

Any merit to the birth control pills in the water claim?

Dyr

What do modern feminists want anyway?

JimmyVik

anewme wrote: »

Would you ever stop, cancel culture, woke, woke-ism, woke clergy...the wokey cokey...

Ironically, the sad tinkley music at the end of The Hulk Episodes is called The Lonely Man.

He suffered terrible racism, did our Doctor David. Green people had it bad back then.....:pac:

I think youve actually finally lost the plot

Sleepy

Bambi wrote: »

What do modern feminists want anyway?

To quote a better man than I:

Billy Connolly wrote:

"We want this, and that! We demand a share in that, and most of that! Some of this, and fucking all of that! Less of that, and more of this, and fucking plenty of this. And another thing, we want it now, I want it yesterday, I want fucking more tomorrow, and the demands will all be changed then, so fucking stay awake!

stefanovich

stefanovich wrote: »

Any merit to the birth control pills in the water claim?

Doubtful. It'll be a combination of water, and air pollution, both of which have been linked to biological changes in males, and females alike. There's also the factor of a changing diet, with a decrease in overall food quality, and the addition of chemicals to increase the taste (and expiration) of products.. without any consideration of how it would affect the body.

Across Asia, you can see a movement away from traditional foods, towards the junk foods, due to the need for convenience. But, I'd guess that pollution would rank really high for most Asian men, for the spike in impotence, and infertile sperm.

FunLover18

Energy Drink wrote: »

So what you're saying above is that women reduce their likelihood of being the victims of assault by taking precautions. So would you agree then that it is a good idea for women ( and people in general) to take precautions?

Feminists often get their knickers in a twist when you suggest it is a good idea to take precautions. The irrationallity is surreal to witness.

I don't think I or anyone suggested that women shouldn't take precautions, feminists get rightfully annoyed when the onus is put on women to take "precautions" like not dress provocatively rather than on men to change their attitudes and behaviours towards women.

There was mention earlier of reasonable precautions as well. Changing how you dress or do your make up so as to avoid sexual assault is not reasonable and there's been discussion of what signals a woman sends out when the discussion should be on how men interpret these "signals" and act on them. Walking home alone is not unreasonable thing to do.

osarusan

dogbert27 wrote: »

in today's woke society all white males are privileged (:rolleyes:) and don't have the rights to express a view that is contrary to woke opinions.

JimmyVik wrote: »

Its worse than that.
If they do express a contrary view, they will be hunted down and their employer, friends etc harassed, until that person is left a lonely outcast on the edge of society. Ultimate gang bullying.

Victimhood complex on boards is just as strong as ever I see.

There are people claiming victimhood everywhere in the internet, and they come in all hues, but on boards, those banging on about the plight of the white male are seriously over-represented.

dogbert27

Calls for all men to have a 6pm curfew so women can feel safe after dark

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9350711/Green-peer-calls-MEN-face-6pm-CURFEW-wake-Sarah-Everard-murder.html

dogbert27

osarusan wrote: »

Victimhood complex on boards is just as strong as ever I see.

Are we not entitled to feel like a victim if it is "our truth" just like Meghan Markle?

Tell me how

anewme wrote: »

Would you ever stop, cancel culture, woke, woke-ism, woke clergy...the wokey cokey...

There's something bizarre about it isn't there. 'Perpetually outraged' or 'constantly offended' are other phrases frequently used here without a hint of irony when at this point almost 100% of the threads on the topic of anything progressive which are started on here are started by people who have an issue with them in some way or another.

Monorail32

Monorail32 wrote: »

I haven't seen any suggestions on this thread women should reduce their risk of being assaulted by changing how they dress or do their make up. Why are you mentioning this? It's a long thread though, perhaps I missed it.

It is indeed wise to take reasonable precautions when out in public. That applies to men and women.

You definitely need to go back a few pages!

Salvation Tambourine

dogbert27 wrote: »

Calls for all men to have a 6pm curfew so women can feel safe after dark

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9350711/Green-peer-calls-MEN-face-6pm-CURFEW-wake-Sarah-Everard-murder.html

I argue that, at the next opportunity for any Bill that is appropriate, I might put in an amendment to create a curfew for men on the streets after 6 pm.

'I feel this would make women a lot safer, and discrimination of all kinds would be lessened.'

Discrimination of all kinds would be lessened? Not allowing men to leave the house after 18.00 would lessen discrimination of all kinds? What an utter buffoon. Never mind the practicality of something like that.

Skippyme

Cancel culture was all over me in a previous Thread. :pac:

But in the current Thread people don't like cancel culture except they do when the tables turn like Piers.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058042337

JimmyVik wrote: »

Thats cancel culture for you. Dont pretend it isnt a problem.

From today - but same debate we held previously

Wibbs wrote: »

It was responses like this that had you dismissed on that other thread you speak of. You come from one entrenched position, raise points based on that, when those points are questioned you pretty much ignore them, or attempt to twist them to your purpose and plough on from your original entrenched position. It's perfectly evident to anyone reading whether they agree with your worldview or not that you're not open to any other position and that you're not for turning.

Add in the avoidance of points raised and it becomes frustrating and ultimately pointless to engage and then as night follows day that's construed as "aggressive" by the entrenched worldview holder and they usually leave thinking they've scored some victory. Entrenched worldview intact.

It's extremely common a tactic and can be seen across a range of subjects, but it does seem to be on the increase.

Skippyme wrote: »

(1) There are quite a few of you very defensive about it and you don't put up much reasoning behind it - just telling me it's not your problem if others don't fit in ... What does this say about the male species if you's all count yourselves as the average example without admitting to being at the ' toxic ' end of the scale based on such a callous theme ??? You can't identify that it actually exerts extreme pressure on many men that would otherwise be more their natural selves to be afraid to step out of line. You don't want me telling you to tone it down but this is the exact message that men are given in reverse from ' Toxic Masculinity '. It places the burden on them that you are all up in arms over regarding yourselves ... you are assuming the victim role and using it as an excuse to carry on keeping the rest of us down. Men that have failing mental health, or maybe just need to reach out and be supported should instead be knocked down or kicked to the kerb entirely ? There is nothing comparable to peer support so no public service, shrink, medication or mentality of deal with things on your own would help. BTW don't place this onto the female gender as their niche ... that would really show you up.

(2) The topic has nothing to do with feminism. I explained it and I am referring to male to male interaction excluding male chauvinism. The topic is NOT about male chauvinism and you all keep going back to women being less than perfect. Women don't act out ' toxic masculinity ' - men do. If I was talking about neighbours with a long running feud suddenly turning to assault would you keep deflecting away from the perpetrator / their crime to talk economy / politics ?

(3) You are demanding answers from me but you have not all been so forth coming yourselves to address details that I provided on the topic, the explanation of the terminology, situations affecting men such as the examples already given ... and answers to questions that I asked throughout ???

Leg End Reject

dogbert27 wrote: »

Calls for all men to have a 6pm curfew so women can feel safe after dark

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9350711/Green-peer-calls-MEN-face-6pm-CURFEW-wake-Sarah-Everard-murder.html

Ah now, it's bizarre that someone thought of that, nevermind say it publicly.

If we let isolated events cloud our judgement of an entire gender, and use that to oppress and control them, we might as well exterminate the human race.

I hope she receives the backlash and contempt that deserves.

JimmyVik

dogbert27 wrote: »

Calls for all men to have a 6pm curfew so women can feel safe after dark

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9350711/Green-peer-calls-MEN-face-6pm-CURFEW-wake-Sarah-Everard-murder.html

I remember that happened during Sutcliffs reign of terror.
That was just one psycho. Yet all men were suspects.

Wasnt one of the women front and center of the marches about not being afraid to walk home alone, attacked by him afterwards. Thankfully she survived.

silverharp

dogbert27 wrote: »

Calls for all men to have a 6pm curfew so women can feel safe after dark

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9350711/Green-peer-calls-MEN-face-6pm-CURFEW-wake-Sarah-Everard-murder.html

funny how they didnt think of that with Muslims and terrorism

JimmyVik

Skippyme wrote: »

Cancel culture was all over me in a previous Thread. :pac:

But in the current Thread people don't like cancel culture except they do when the tables turn like Piers.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058042337



From today - but same debate we held previously

I wouldnt be worried about Piers.
He brings it on himself and can handle it and actually makes his living from it.



Its the people ive seen who said one thing 20 years ago and cant be forgiven.

In my day if you said something stupid you got a clip around the ear and told to cop on and not do it again. Thats enough.


Or the girl who wore a dress for her debs that apparently they shouldnt have worn because they are from a different country and got ganged up on on social media.

FunLover18

Monorail32 wrote: »

I haven't seen any suggestions on this thread women should reduce their risk of being assaulted by changing how they dress or do their make up. Why are you mentioning this? It's a long thread though, perhaps I missed it.

It is indeed wise to take reasonable precautions when out in public. That applies to men and women.

In fairness to klaz they do stipulate that they're not saying women should cover themselves up but the implication is still there that they need to be conscious of what they wear and what effect it has on men yet no mention of men addressing their own attitudes and expectations. It is a way of mitigating sexual assault and there's no way around that.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

For once, I'm going to make a "take it or leave it" post, because I know how this discussion goes, having been involved in such previously. I've little interest in being insulted and demeaned by posters here for posting an alternative opinion.. and I'm fully aware that is where this topic invariably leads to.

While I agree that many of the reactions to Sarah Everard were disgraceful.. there are many situations where women should be more careful with their personal safety, and their appearance. The fashion that many women choose to wear does send signals. Women's fashion, in many cases, from high heels to makeup, are designed to elicit a physical reaction in men. That's a simple fact. To ignore that, is to ignore your own responsibility for the positions you put yourself in. There is an expectation that women should be able to behave the same as men, getting drunk, and partying like crazy, without a care in the world. Or going back to a hotel room with a group of male strangers. This expectation, IMHO, is naive and dangerous. It lacks any degree of awareness that the world is not an entirely safe place.

It's not about victim blaming. It's about personal safety. Most women are far more vulnerable than men, and as such, need to take precautions for their own safety. Sure, they shouldn't have to.. but the reality is that they need to, since those aspects of reality aren't changing any time soon.

There is a trend to embrace absolutes on certain topics. If someone suggests that the woman should have been more aware of her surroundings, then that's supposedly victim blaming, when I consider it to being common sense. Women should be taking care, being aware of who is around them.

Saying that women should take care of themselves, and engage in behavior that is more careful than men, is not misogyny. It's accepting the realities that exist in the world today. I live, for the most part abroad, where I avoid behaviors which would be acceptable in the West, but cause friction, and ultimately increase the risks of violence, in the East. That's a reasonable thing to do, and yet, to suggest that women don't wear revealing clothing in questionable circumstances, is not reasonable... because women should be able to do whatever they want, wherever they want, and nobody should criticise those choices, regardless of the consequences. I could provide a wide range of examples explaining my point of view, but I know they'll be taken apart and dismissed... or reinterpreted to suit a more absolute view.

This is not to say that women need to cover themselves up, never go out, or whatever. Whenever that's pushed it's the embracing of an absolute as a way to attack anyone who suggests that women should be more careful. However, women should be encouraged to be aware of how their appearance and behavior affects people around them, and to understand that there can be unwanted reactions. Wishing for it not to happen isn't much help.

I recognise that my opinion on this topic is a minority on boards. No problem. However, I do worry about the society we are encouraging when we don't have an entirely safe environment where women can dress and behave however they like, and yet, that's the message that is being sent. Wear skimpy clothing, dance and flirt with strangers, go back to their rooms, and don't expect certain (obvious) things to happen.

In any case, I'm done. And no... I won't be responding to any replies to this post.