Modern Feminism-Good for Society?

Skippyme

I agree that people can say things that may be taken incorrectly, even meant sometimes but then people change viewpoints.

However, I was referring to the sort of cancel culture when somebody wants to immediately end a discussion over the way men treat other men because boys will be boys ... don't be woke etc.

That is a weak and lazy argument is my point & less messy for them to end it.

The easy way in other words is to cancel things & say they don't exist or are innate so therefore cannot be discussed or explored to any degree.

JimmyVik wrote: »

I wouldnt be worried about Piers.
He brings it on himself and can handle it and actually makes his living from it.



Its the people ive seen who said one thing 20 years ago and cant be forgiven.

In my day if you said something stupid you got a clip around the ear and told to cop on and not do it again. Thats enough.


Or the girl who wore a dress for her debs that apparently they shouldnt have worn because they are from a different country and got ganged up on on social media.

Leg End Reject

Skippyme wrote: »

I agree that people can say things that may be taken incorrectly, even meant sometimes but then people change viewpoints.

However, I was referring to the sort of cancel culture when somebody wants to immediately end a discussion over the way men treat other men because boys will be boys ... don't be woke etc.

That is a weak and lazy argument is my point & less messy for them to end it.

The easy way in other words is to cancel things & say they don't exist or are innate so therefore cannot be discussed or explored to any degree.

It's very difficult to understand your point, but my best guess is you went to an all-boys school and were bullied because you're "not as masculine", and are equating that to toxic masculinity?

JimmyVik

FunLover18 wrote: »

In fairness to klaz they do stipulate that they're not saying women should cover themselves up but the implication is still there that they need to be conscious of what they wear and what effect it has on men yet no mention of men addressing their own attitudes and expectations. It is a way of mitigating sexual assault and there's no way around that.

And its not even about the effect it has on 99.9999% of people.

Its about the effect it has on the one monster lurking among them who might be looking for the next victim.

If 100 people go into a field full of cattle and then you find out theres a bull in the field, do you want to be the one in red (I know bulls dont charge because its red, just go with it)

Of course you are entitled to wear red all you want, but might be better not to wear it that day.

Skippyme

To answer your question - no I went to a mixed school.

Also the point is simple ... like people who declare Trump the saviour but when anybody quizzes them for evidence or insight into election claims then the gates close up.

Men hate such discussions over broadening masculinity, or complaints or queries over such.

Leg End Reject wrote: »

It's very difficult to understand your point, but my best guess is you went to an all-boys school and were bullied because you're "not as masculine", and are equating that to toxic masculinity?

Silentcorner

dogbert27 wrote: »

Calls for all men to have a 6pm curfew so women can feel safe after dark

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9350711/Green-peer-calls-MEN-face-6pm-CURFEW-wake-Sarah-Everard-murder.html

And people wonder how feminists are accused of being hysterical, unreasonable, devoid of logic and succumbing to their emotions too often!!!

Leg End Reject

Skippyme wrote: »

To answer your question - no I went to a mixed school.

Also the point is simple ... like people who declare Trump the saviour but when anybody quizzes them for evidence or insight into election claims then the gates close up.

Men hate such discussions over broadening masculinity, or complaints or queries over such.

I'm not sure of the relevance of Trump, but ignoring that how and why does masculinity need to be broadened?

Do you personally find it difficult to relate to men and form friendships? How about with women?

Steve Jones

Steve Jones wrote: »

Only white men are dangerous, remember?

And white men are not terrorists or muslim?

TomTomTim

Skippyme wrote: »

To answer your question - no I went to a mixed school.

Also the point is simple ... like people who declare Trump the saviour but when anybody quizzes them for evidence or insight into election claims then the gates close up.

Men hate such discussions over broadening masculinity, or complaints or queries over such.

You don't want to broaden it though, you want it to mirror femininity more. Society can't function with such an imbalance, traditional masculinity and femininity are like ying and yang, they need to exist along side each other to balance each other out. Our biology isn't a fluke, it has societal purpose.

FunLover18

JimmyVik wrote: »

And its not even about the effect it has on 99.9999% of people.

Its about the effect it has on the one monster lurking among them who might be looking for the next victim.

If 100 people go into a field full of cattle and then you find out theres a bull in the field, do you want to be the one in red (I know bulls dont charge because its red, just go with it)

Of course you are entitled to wear red all you want, but might be better not to wear it that day.

Ok it's not a perfect analogy and I'm not sure I understand your point entirely but what I will say is that the cattle should be turning to the bull and saying "they were wearing red? So what? Maybe they just like red" rather than saying to me "you wore red. What did you expect?"

Tell me how

Silentcorner wrote: »

And people wonder how feminists are accused of being hysterical, unreasonable, devoid of logic and succumbing to their emotions too often!!!

Not surprising that out of the thousands of comments online about this particular incident, that a paper such as the Daily Mail has found an extreme reaction viewpoint so that that can be focused on and all the other voices are largely ignored.

anewme

Could be Trump would be the poster for toxic masculinity if you wanted to give a real life example, I suppose.

Poster starting the thread saying that some men are mens own worst enemy, the boys don't cry, Man up, grow a pair. Thats what I took from it.

One poster was rambling on about taking on a womans role of taking care of her men, but that goes two ways and could not see the relevance.

I would not know that much more about it.

I thought it came out around Harvey Weinstein ( textbook example) but someone else said was there a lot longer.

FunLover18

FunLover18 wrote: »

In fairness to klaz they do stipulate that they're not saying women should cover themselves up but the implication is still there that they need to be conscious of what they wear and what effect it has on men yet no mention of men addressing their own attitudes and expectations. It is a way of mitigating sexual assault and there's no way around that.

In fairness? Seriously? I don't see much fairness being applied in your post.

The focus is already on men to police themselves, and men, as a gender, are being held accountable for what some men do. Which can be seen in the vast difference (between the genders) in sentencing outcomes for similar crimes in the courts, or the long-standing dismissive attitude when it comes to female led domestic abuse towards men.

It is interesting though. Suggest that women should look after their own safety, and it's deflected back to talking about men.. even though, the focus is already on men in regards to all of these issues. This thread for the last two pages is a perfect example of this...

Not that I'm surprised, but I felt the posts I answered (with my original post) deserved a response. I'll be unfollowing this thread, because I think we've reached the point of circular arguments, and the glossing over of points, to repeat mantra's.

joe40

Tell me how wrote: »

Not surprising that out of the thousands of comments online about this particular incident, that a paper such as the Daily Mail has found an extreme reaction viewpoint so that that can be focused on and all the other voices are largely ignored.

Yes you're right. That was a stupid comment about the 6 O Clock curfew that will get zero support. Best ignored it adds nothing to the debate.

The Crime was horrendous but we are all equally blameless and to an extent helpless to do anything about this unless you are an actual perpetrator.

I fully support female demands for safer streets and any kind of whistling or intimidation should definitely stop. Men who think it is funny should grow up.

This kind of violence is altogether brutal. It had nothing to do with what the woman was wearing or her behavior. She was killed by a monster.

I would love there to be a simple answer but there's not. The vast majority of this kind of crime is perpetrated by Men. On the other hand the vast majority of Men do not perpetrate this crime.

Victim blaming is not the answer, but is there anything I can do as a random citizen to prevent this type of thing? I'm not sure there is.

Salvation Tambourine

joe40 wrote: »

I would love there to be a simple answer but there's not. The vast majority of this kind of crime is perpetrated by Men. On the other hand the vast majority of Men do not perpetrate this crime.

Arrest criminals and put them in prisons. It's probably too simplistic but it would be effective.

Dyr

Bambi wrote: »

What do modern feminists want anyway?

Any takers?

Whats on the list these days?

joe40

Skippyme wrote: »

To answer your question - no I went to a mixed school.

Also the point is simple ... like people who declare Trump the saviour but when anybody quizzes them for evidence or insight into election claims then the gates close up.

Men hate such discussions over broadening masculinity, or complaints or queries over such.

I'm not really sure that is true in the real world. There seems to be large acceptance that male mental health is a serious issue. Suicide is a massive killer and i have come across plenty of articles in the media talking about the importance of men been more open about their issues.

The "Men's shed" iniative got a lot of support as a way for men to interact in a positive way.

I accept toxic masculinity is a thing. I know some jump down your throat at the mention of this phrase saying it is an insult to men. That misses the point.

At the same time your assertion that "toxic masculinity" is still a major problem in everyday society is false in my view. It still exists, but nowhere near the same extent in terms of widespread acceptance as 20 30 years ago.

I just think in these discussion it is helpful to highlight the positive. Most men, the vast majority are not bullies, are not violent are not toxic in any way.

The ones that are cause immense damage, I accept that. But I would call it a criminal justice issue rather than a gender issue.

SusanRichards

Monorail32 wrote: »

I haven't seen any suggestions on this thread women should reduce their risk of being assaulted by changing how they dress or do their make up. Why are you mentioning this? It's a long thread though, perhaps I missed it.

It is indeed wise to take reasonable precautions when out in public. That applies to men and women.

Don't get your knickers in a twist.

anewme

Monorail32 wrote: »

Is there any modern feminists around who can answer the above question?

The original poster is probably best placed to answer that I suppose.

joe40

anewme wrote: »

The original poster is probably best placed to answer that I suppose.

People with 3 post and 6 posts respectively are just here for trolling best ignored unless they something credible to offer.

Tell me how

Silentcorner wrote: »

And people wonder how feminists are accused of being hysterical, unreasonable, devoid of logic and succumbing to their emotions too often!!!

And the dogwhistle worked.....

anewme

Tell me how wrote: »

And the dogwhistle worked.....

That's probably my biggest issue with Boards to be honest.

Tell me how

Bambi wrote: »

What do modern feminists want anyway?

Monorail32 wrote: »

Is there any modern feminists around who can answer the above question?

Do you think anyone with a desire for things to be better for women in 2021 is by default a defacto modern feminist?

If not, do you think that there is a massive world wide group of people who are all aligned on every issue, in both the cause and the solution? Do you think that a woman who identifies as a feminist in Iran has exactly the same issues as one who does in London or that because the root issues experienced by one, the argument for the other is invalidated?

I think the concept of the 'modern feminist' and their adherence to some form of indoctrinated credo is something which mostly exists in the minds of those who are annoyed at any advocacy for women.

Tell me how

anewme wrote: »

That's probably my biggest issue with Boards to be honest.

It's not just boards, the Daily Mail knew exactly what they were doing with that article.
It's a common tactic, same with BLM, one activist says that massive money is owed for reparations, all supporters for the right for Black people to be treated equally by police are dismissed with the accusation that they just want black people to get paid.
A climate activist talks about the need to overcome reliance on oil, it is portrayed as them suggesting that all combustible engines should be switched off today and never started.
A woman says we should be seeing a more representative spread of people in elected parliament positions and it is suggested that anyone who agrees with her wants gender quotas.

The extreme becomes the story and the logical considerations are lost in the outrage. You are right, it does happen on Boards, as I've said, most progressive topics which get threads here are started by people who are against their premise.

TomTomTim

Tell me how wrote: »

Do you think anyone with a desire for things to be better for women in 2021 is by default a defacto modern feminist?

If not, do you think that there is a massive world wide group of people who are all aligned on every issue, in both the cause and the solution? Do you think that a woman who identifies as a feminist in Iran has exactly the same issues as one who does in London or that because the root issues experienced by one, the argument for the other is invalidated?

I think the concept of the 'modern feminist' and their adherence to some form of indoctrinated credo is something which mostly exists in the minds of those who are annoyed at any advocacy for women.

The fact that you don't even acknowledge that the stereotype exists, even in the minority, even though there's many examples in this thread alone, shows you're not to be reasoned with. You remind me of a handful of posters on this site, who for years, used to pretend that political correctness didn't exist.

Dyr

Tell me how wrote: »

Do you think anyone with a desire for things to be better for women in 2021 is by default a defacto modern feminist?

If not, do you think that there is a massive world wide group of people who are all aligned on every issue, in both the cause and the solution? Do you think that a woman who identifies as a feminist in Iran has exactly the same issues as one who does in London or that because the root issues experienced by one, the argument for the other is invalidated?

I think the concept of the 'modern feminist' and their adherence to some form of indoctrinated credo is something which mostly exists in the minds of those who are annoyed at any advocacy for women.

Straight forward question asked, straight forward answer required, none given. Some sort of Jean Luc Picard sollilquay offered instead.

Given that this is an Irish forum lets narrow it down if that makes life easier: What do modern feminists still want from the Irish state? Whats on the list these days?

Tell me how

TomTomTim wrote: »

The fact that you don't even acknowledge that the stereotype exists, even in the minority, even though there's many examples in this thread alone, shows you're not to be reasoned with. You remind me of a handful of posters on this site, who for years, used to pretend that political correctness didn't exist.

So we are taking stereotypes as being the consensus then are we?

Or are you acknowledging that this concern about modern feminism is limited to a statistically insignificant number of people?

Silentcorner

Tell me how wrote: »

And the dogwhistle worked.....

You really didn't like my post did you...you've quoted it twice now!!!

Tell me how

Bambi wrote: »

Straight forward question asked, straight forward answer required, none given. Some sort of Jean Luc Picard sollilquay offered instead.

Given that this is an Irish forum lets narrow it down if that makes life easier: What do modern feminists still want from the Irish state? Whats on the list these days?

You failed to understand that the answer showed that it wasn't a straight forward question.

Nice interjection there of 'the Irish state' in to what do modern Irish feminists want?

I suspect not a huge amount directly at this point. What is your view, what largely supported list of demands are you aware of that have been asked for?

Tell me how

Silentcorner wrote: »

You really didn't like my post did you...you've quoted it twice now!!!

I actually liked it given that it clarified the strategy and influence some conservative groups can have on public discourse. It was very useful. You can expect to see it referenced on various threads on Boards in future.

Silentcorner

Tell me how wrote: »

It's not just boards, the Daily Mail knew exactly what they were doing with that article.
It's a common tactic, same with BLM, one activist says that massive money is owed for reparations, all supporters for the right for Black people to be treated equally by police are dismissed with the accusation that they just want black people to get paid.
A climate activist talks about the need to overcome reliance on oil, it is portrayed as them suggesting that all combustible engines should be switched off today and never started.
A woman says we should be seeing a more representative spread of people in elected parliament positions and it is suggested that anyone who agrees with her wants gender quotas.

The extreme becomes the story and the logical considerations are lost in the outrage. You are right, it does happen on Boards, as I've said, most progressive topics which get threads here are started by people who are against their premise.

You are clever enough to spot one shower at it but you have no awareness that you have succumbed to the very same....you are being just as manipulated as every one else...it's why media is in the gutter.