Modern Feminism-Good for Society?

Tell me how

Tomato Ketchup75 wrote: »

In Ireland I don't think you can really use the term "conservatives" the way you can in America.

If you listen to most women in Ireland I think they would tell you that they wouldn't want to be associated with feminists of today.

Who/are the feminists of today?

Do you think most women in Ireland would like to feel that they have as much likelihood as succeeding in their career as men do? Do you think that they would like to be guaranteed that they will be paid the same as men who are doing the same role as them? Do you think that they would like that it wouldn't automatically be assumed that they would be the ones who would carry out care duties in the home? Do you think they would like to feel they can dress any way they want without provoking a reaction on the street?

Again, I must clarify, because I know how people react, I am not saying that there are no examples of the above being the case. I am saying that if some women feel that it is not the case, they are entitled to advocate for change. If they are wrong, they won't get an audience or support, if they are right, then why shouldn't they?

Silentcorner

silverharp wrote: »

i would mention in passing to my son to stay away government jobs, working in education, focus on hard science/maths for college, be quota proof

Quotas in STEM won't be too far away and the companies operating in that sphere will have Gender requirements.

It's difficult what to say to a young man these days, young boys have to be told of the future they face...

anewme

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

I thought you knew nothing of modern feminism?

I dont.

Ive said here 3 or 4 times.

Where is this credo that everyone alludes to, but no one produces.

CtevenSrowder

Tell me how wrote: »

Who/are the feminists of today?

Do you think most women in Ireland would like to feel that they have as much likelihood as succeeding in their career as men do? Do you think that they would like to be guaranteed that they will be paid the same as men who are doing the same role as them? Do you think that they would like that it wouldn't automatically be assumed that they would be the ones who would carry out care duties in the home? Do you think they would like to feel they can dress any way they want without provoking a reaction on the street?

Again, I must clarify, because I know how people react, I am not saying that there are no examples of the above being the case. I am saying that if some women feel that it is not the case, they are entitled to advocate for change. If they are wrong, they won't get an audience or support, if they are right, then why shouldn't they?

They can advocate for change. What would be nice is if they didn't lie telling everyone they care about 'equality of the sexes' yet only ever focus on the problems of one of the sexes. A bit of honesty would certainly result in less entrenchment as ultimately, people don't like being lied to.

joe40

Silentcorner wrote: »

Because that is what is happening...

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/616340/limerick-sinn-fein-member-cant-run-in-next-general-election-because-of-my-gender.html

A "female only constituency"...SF, one of the largest political parties on this island.

So why are Sinn Fein doing that. Is Gerry Adams a radical feminist now. I'm sure he still has a say in the party.
Maybe quotas are necessary as a short term fix.

I know the issue is controversial but if it is so blatantly unfair why would it exist.

There seems to be two conflicting narratives. Modern feminism is a fringe movement with no real support with women.

Feminism is all pervasive influencing every aspect of society.

Which is it?

CtevenSrowder

anewme wrote: »

I dont.

Then how do you know if what the Daily Mail posted was a dogwhistle? Or what Silentcorner said wasn't true?

Tell me how

Silentcorner wrote: »

So do you think it is ok to discriminate on the basis of gender in political parties or politically appointed positions?

I have already said that I think that in some cases quotas have to be considered to promote the presence of people in particular roles so that the role no longer assumes it is outside the reach of a large portion of society. Suzanne Breen wrote an article on this and some of the other experiences of women in politics in the north a few days ago. It's behind a paywall, but here is the link. Link

Unionism has a lack of women politicians, and it's a problem. Look at DUP and UUP benches in Stormont. They have very few female faces compared to the other side of the chamber. We need to change that.

I'm not going to get too caught up in the 'no gender discrimination of any sort' from people on here when for so long they have been fine with defacto discrimination being in existence. It's like the people who only started talking about All Lives Matter when black lives protests started gaining traction.

jrosen

I think what we need to stop doing is telling women there are obstacles there that dont exist. We need to stop telling women that they are worth less and pretending that no matter how hard they work they will still be paid less than their male counterparts. Thats the rhetoric that needs to stop because thats what is damaging.
Any person who works hard has the opportunity to progress regardless of gender.

Tell me how

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

They can advocate for change. What would be nice is if they didn't lie telling everyone they care about 'equality of the sexes' yet only ever focus on the problems of one of the sexes. A bit of honesty would certainly result in less entrenchment as ultimately, people don't like being lied to.

Please spare us the puppy dog eyes on this. They are advocating for themselves and their gender for access and opportunities which heretofore have largely been outside their reach or curtailed if they did manage to make any advances.

Quite often it was the vaunted patriarchy who was responsible for restricting their opportunities. And you think that they should pretty much immediately pick up the cause of issues affecting men when in many cases men won't even support other men who try to advocate for some improvement.

I mean talk about a sense of entitlement...

Silentcorner

Tell me how wrote: »

I have already said that I think that in some cases quotas have to be considered to promote the presence of people in particular roles so that the role no longer assumes it is outside the reach of a large portion of society. Suzanne Breen wrote an article on this and some of the other experiences of women in politics in the north a few days ago. It's behind a paywall, but here is the link. Link



I'm not going to get too caught up in the 'no gender discrimination of any sort' from people on here when for so long they have been fine with defacto discrimination being in existence. It's like the people who only started talking about All Lives Matter when black lives protests started gaining traction.

So you think that it is ok to systematically discriminate based on gender.

Once you start that it will never stop...that is a controlled society, controlled by the State.

If we had a load of Independents, which we have had over the last 10 years, who were women who were not being given the opportunity at party level then I might agree that that would be an issue that needs to be addressed...but guess what, that hasn't manifested, most Independents are men.

CtevenSrowder

Tell me how wrote: »

Please spare us the puppy dog eyes on this. They are advocating for themselves and their gender for access and opportunities which heretofore have largely been outside their reach or curtailed if they did manage to make any advances.

Quite often it was the vaunted patriarchy who was responsible for restricting their opportunities. And you think that they should pretty much immediately pick up the cause of issues affecting men when in many cases men won't even support other men who try to advocate for some improvement.

I mean talk about a sense of entitlement...

I've got no sense of entitlement, and don't believe they should do what you say. I think they should state that they are advocating explicitly for women, which they are, and give up the pretence of caring about both sexes or equality.

Can you answer me this please:

What makes you state 'conservatives' aren't listening to women? Some women are 'conservatives'. Do you ever talk to these women, or do you prefer a 'liberal' echo chamber?

Tell me how

jrosen wrote: »

I think what we need to stop doing is telling women there are obstacles there that dont exist. We need to stop telling women that they are worth less and pretending that no matter how hard they work they will still be paid less than their male counterparts. Thats the rhetoric that needs to stop because thats what is damaging.
Any person who works hard has the opportunity to progress regardless of gender.

another with the false narrative?

Who is telling women that there are problems that don't exist? In many cases, they knew about problems but weren't in a position to do anything about them but they drew attention to them and ultimately, society started paying attention and people nearly passively started to consider them for roles and duties whereas previously they just automatically assumed that the next man in line was the man for the job.

There's a very wide gap between black kids being escorted to school by police in an attempt to overcome segregation and people truly considering everyone on the merits of their own qualifications, experiences and skills. And just because the first had to happen, doesn't mean that it is needed in every instance. Ireland is by no means a bad place for a woman, in comparison to some, but feminism in Ireland is by no means as radical as many here want it to appear to be.

Silentcorner

joe40 wrote: »

So why are Sinn Fein doing that. Is Gerry Adams a radical feminist now. I'm sure he still has a say in the party.
Maybe quotas are necessary as a short term fix.

I know the issue is controversial but if it is so blatantly unfair why would it exist.

There seems to be two conflicting narratives. Modern feminism is a fringe movement with no real support with women.

Feminism is all pervasive influencing every aspect of society.

Which is it?

I've no idea why SF are doing that, you'll have to get on to them yourself.

You can be a fringe movement and influence political parties and corporate entities quiet easily, a globalized world makes it easier...it just takes a lot of funding, which feminists receive and friendly media outlets.

Tell me how

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

I've got no sense of entitlement, and don't believe they should do what you say. I think they should state that they are advocating explicitly for women, which they are, and give up the pretence of caring about both sexes or equality.

Can you answer me this please:

What makes you state 'conservatives' aren't listening to women? Some women are 'conservatives'. Do you ever talk to these women, or do you prefer a 'liberal' echo chamber?

I mean, in this context, the conservative viewpoint which exists within the spectrum of Irish societal viewpoints. It doesn't mean that it is an exact mirror of the widely understood American viewpoint, but it is consistent in many ways.

I will talk to anyone, and am very interested in all viewpoints, I have a sister inlaw who is very conservative in many respects but she still would like for her daughter feel that she is as likely to succeed as her son is.

joe40

Silentcorner wrote: »

I've no idea why SF are doing that, you'll have to get on to them yourself.

You can be a fringe movement and influence political parties and corporate entities quiet easily, a globalized world makes it easier...it just takes a lot of funding, which feminists receive and friendly media outlets.

I don't think you can. Political parties especially depend on popular support. They would not be following policies unless there core voters agreed.
The main political parties only came out in support of same sex marriage or the repeal referendum when it was obvious both issues enjoyed popular support.

Silentcorner

Tell me how wrote: »

I mean, in this context, the conservative viewpoint which exists within the spectrum of Irish societal viewpoints. It doesn't mean that it is an exact mirror of the widely understood American viewpoint, but it is consistent in many ways.

I will talk to anyone, and am very interested in all viewpoints, I have a sister inlaw who is very conservative in many respects but she still would like for her daughter feel that she is as likely to succeed as her son is.

Well, you can tell your sister in law that her boy will face systematic discrimination on the basis of his gender...her daughter won't.

Tell me how

Silentcorner wrote: »

So you think that it is ok to systematically discriminate based on gender.

Once you start that it will never stop...that is a controlled society, controlled by the State.

If we had a load of Independents, which we have had over the last 10 years, who were women who were not being given the opportunity at party level then I might agree that that would be an issue that needs to be addressed...but guess what, that hasn't manifested, most Independents are men.

As I've said, I understand that some action can be needed to change some perceptions which might exist.

I disagree that it is therefore a controlled society or that it is any more controlled than it previously was. Or that this is a thin end of a wedge which will forever get worse.

jrosen

Tell me how wrote: »

another with the false narrative?

Who is telling women that there are problems that don't exist? In many cases, they knew about problems but weren't in a position to do anything about them but they drew attention to them and ultimately, society started paying attention and people nearly passively started to consider them for roles and duties whereas previously they just automatically assumed that the next man in line was the man for the job.

There's a very wide gap between black kids being escorted to school by police in an attempt to overcome segregation and people truly considering everyone on the merits of their own qualifications, experiences and skills. And just because the first had to happen, doesn't mean that it is needed in every instance. Ireland is by no means a bad place for a woman, in comparison to some, but feminism in Ireland is by no means as radical as many here want it to appear to be.

Media/society? All we read about is the "gender pay gap" and comments from people who should know better and i think do know better but they would rather peddle lies that women are being less for the exact same work. There are many many factors for disparity in pay and simply being a woman isn't one of them.

Tell me how

Silentcorner wrote: »

Well, you can tell your sister in law that her boy will face systematic discrimination on the basis of his gender...her daughter won't.

lol

I think if gender quotas in some constituencies within one party is the extent of this systematic discrimination, she'll be absolutely fine with that.

Silentcorner

Tell me how wrote: »

lol

I think if gender quotas in some constituencies within one party is the extent of this systematic discrimination, she'll be absolutely fine with that.

Our Education Minister is a first term TD...she got the job because of her gender...it's gone beyond one party as well you know.

Private Enterprises will soon be expected to publish details of gender pay disparity, which is a not so subtle way of normalizing gender discrimination.

Tell me how

jrosen wrote: »

Media/society? All we read about is the "gender pay gap" and comments from people who should know better and i think do know better but they would rather peddle lies that women are being less for the exact same work. There are many many factors for disparity in pay and simply being a woman isn't one of them.

We've been around the houses on this already. There are several instances where pay for people for the same job was different and the pay for someone in the role is not the extent of the issue.

But, consider this, why would media give a voice to this when we have seen that there is at least as much a conservative voice within media as there is a liberal one. who are the big media personalities in terms of platforms? Rupert Murdoch is obviously one, does he strike you as someone who would be pushing for a baseless liberal ideal?

Did Denis O'Brien come across as a staunch advocate for liberal ideas?

UK media I would argue is in fact predominantly conservative.

joe40

Silentcorner wrote: »

Our Education Minister is a first term TD...she got the job because of her gender...it's gone beyond one party as well you know.

Private Enterprises will soon be expected to publish details of gender pay disparity, which is a not so subtle way of normalizing gender discrimination.

There have always been what you might call geographical quotas when appointing ministers.

There was even controversy in this govt when there were no ministers from the west, at the start

Tell me how

Silentcorner wrote: »

Our Education Minister is a first term TD...she got the job because of her gender...it's gone beyond one party as well you know.

Private Enterprises will soon be expected to publish details of gender pay disparity, which is a not so subtle way of normalizing gender discrimination.

She had 26 years experience as a member of Kerry County Council and was a teacher throughout that time also. I don't know the specifics of all other government party ministers, but maybe this combination was considered to make her a good candidate for the role.

Silentcorner

joe40 wrote: »

There have always been what you might call geographical quotas when appointing ministers.

There was even controversy in this govt when there were no ministers from the west, at the start

Don't get me started on how dysfunctional our parochial system of Government is, but now we are throwing under qualified women into the mix...remember Mary Mitchell O'Connor?#

We wonder why we will live in a State riddled in dysfunction!

Dyr

Tell me how wrote: »

(WTF is scorpy?)

Who said anything about the Taoiseach? What would I want to talk to him for?
Your demands for a list show how out of kilter you are with what is the broad discussion.

If I had to talk to the Taoiseach, I would ask him does he have any idea on how to convince conservatives to listen to what women are saying rather than just reacting and telling them it is part of some victimhood or a credo they apparently have signed up to.

I don't think you really know what you want, maybe thats a modern feminist thing .

Any other modern feminists want to have a crack at describing what they want?

Silentcorner

Bambi wrote: »

I don't think you really know what you want, maybe thats a modern feminist thing .

Any other modern feminists want to have a crack at describing what they want?

It would seem a combination of mass social engineering and systematic discrimination on the basis of gender...

CtevenSrowder

Tell me how wrote: »

I mean, in this context, the conservative viewpoint which exists within the spectrum of Irish societal viewpoints. It doesn't mean that it is an exact mirror of the widely understood American viewpoint, but it is consistent in many ways.

I took as the American viewpoint as I know you live there (as it can become easy to get caught up in that way of thinking politically). But regardless, it still doesn't answer the question posed. What makes you think Irish conservatives aren't listening to women?

Tell me how wrote: »

I will talk to anyone, and am very interested in all viewpoints, I have a sister inlaw who is very conservative in many respects but she still would like for her daughter feel that she is as likely to succeed as her son is.

And does she not? It has already been pointed out that this is all ready possible. Again, the women I know who would believe that there girls aren't as likely to succeed as boys are the minority. Maybe they have a different idea as to what constitutes success then your cousin, I don't know.

Tell me how

Bambi wrote: »

I don't think you really know what you want, maybe thats a modern feminist thing .

Any other modern feminists want to have a crack at describing what they want?

Keep going, you're painting a very clear picture. Useful to see.

anewme

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Then how do you know if what the Daily Mail posted was a dogwhistle? Or what Silentcorner said wasn't true?

It's pretty clear to see they plant what they want to get out there and have a carefully planned message.

I've also said numerous times on Boards that I believe there is a small core of extreme posters here who do not like women. They use certain language, names and nuances. Anyone street smart or sharp would see the pattern.

They are very different then the posters, who for example dont believe men are treated fairly in the Courts, or that men are victims of domestic violence.

I'm not political, I've never read a book about feminism in my life. I had to look up dog whistle today, but will say I was on the money with hiding in plain sight even if the language I would use would be more layman terms.

Skippyme

TomTomTim wrote: »

You clearly have a deeply tainted view of the male experience. The type of men you describe would not be liked or tolerated by most men in my experience. A strong masculine man is not a bully

IRONY ...

TomTomTim wrote: »

You're whole post was ridiculous, and you were rightly mocked for it.

Regarding another poster your point was ...

TomTomTim wrote: »

The fact that you don't even acknowledge that the stereotype exists, even in the minority, even though there's many examples in this thread alone, shows you're not to be reasoned with. You remind me of a handful of posters on this site, who for years, used to pretend that political correctness didn't exist.

...BUT - The below is not quite acknowledging the possibility that there could just maybe be a problem.
It would compare to the last century when racist people were comfortable with their own status in the world.


Imagine telling the opposite sex to toughen up if they had post natal depression, or had suffered from trauma or bereavement or if they had been attacked.

TomTomTim wrote: »

If we all toughened up, people wouldn't be harmed by words. Believe in our not how sensitive or not you are is a choice to a degree. Being fragile gives bad people an easy way to get to you; if you aren't fragile they can't harm you with words. Certain posters here have shown us time and time again, that modern feminists are hyper sensitive, who can view anything and everything as attacks on women. The strong women of the world really need to fight back against these types, because if you've noticed, they always claim to speak for women, and not just feminist women. They devalue the strength of many women everyday with their desire to be treated like hypersensitive children.

Toughening up is the very attitude that lead to men not being comfortable to express themselves openly, & then if they do other guys cannot handle it or literally don't know how to empathise.

Toughening up also flippantly exonerates any real prospect of availing of constructive & compassionate support from other men.