Semi Auto Rifles contd

smmember20

tudderone wrote: »

Yes.

So if you had it before 2008 you can even now make application for to have it licenced!!!

BattleCorp

smmember20 wrote: »

So if you had it before 2008 you can even now make application for to have it licenced!!!

All guesswork here but I'm guessing that Tudder doesn't have it any more seeing as he said 'he knows where it is'. That probably means that he sold it but knows who has it now. The option to buy it back may not be there. And it's risky buying it back when there's no guarantee of getting the licence.

On the other hand, if it's sitting in a gun dealer's safe, I'd certainly apply as an application costs nothing.

BattleCorp

Tudderone, sorry for being nosey and tell me to sod off if you like but did you have the pistol licenced before November 2008 or did you just own it before then and never held a licence for it?

smmember20

BattleCorp wrote: »

All guesswork here but I'm guessing that Tudder doesn't have it any more seeing as he said 'he knows where it is'. That probably means that he sold it but knows who has it now. The option to buy it back may not be there. And it's risky buying it back when there's no guarantee of getting the licence.

On the other hand, if it's sitting in a gun dealer's safe, I'd certainly apply as an application costs nothing.

So the value of having held a CF licence prior to 2008 is high, personally if he knows where it is, he could ask the lad if he could make an application for the gun as you probably know a gun can be licenced by more than one person, once the licence issues he can them make application for a substitution for another 9mm which I am sure there are no shortages of in dealers!!! Where there is a will there is a way!!!!!!

BattleCorp

smmember20 wrote: »

So the value of having held a CF licence prior to 2008 is high, personally if he knows where it is, he could ask the lad if he could make an application for the gun as you probably know a gun can be licenced by more than one person, once the licence issues he can them make application for a substitution for another 9mm which I am sure there are no shortages of in dealers!!! Where there is a will there is a way!!!!!!

There's a bit of an arugment going on as to whether or not centrefire pistols can be substituted. I've seen no official proof that it is legally allowed. I'm not saying it's not allowed, it's just that the vast majority of us have seen nothing official.

tudderone

BattleCorp wrote: »

Tudderone, sorry for being nosey and tell me to sod off if you like but did you have the pistol licenced before November 2008 or did you just own it before then and never held a licence for it?

Yeah had it licenced and shot it, its part of what gets up my nose about the gardai and licencing etc. I had it and other centrefire pistols for years, then the new rules came in and all of a sudden i wasn't to be trusted anymore.

BattleCorp

tudderone wrote: »

Yeah had it licenced and shot it, its part of what gets up my nose about the gardai and licencing etc. I had it and other centrefire pistols for years, then the new rules came in and all of a sudden i wasn't to be trusted anymore.

Sounds like you've good grounds to reapply to be honest.

I'd be feeling sick if I was in your shoes to have been blackguarded by the Gardai back then.

Might be worth an application seeing as the law seems to be on your side and the spotlight is on the behaviour of the Gardai much more so now than back in 2008.

tudderone

BattleCorp wrote: »

Sounds like you've good grounds to reapply to be honest.

I'd be feeling sick if I was in your shoes to have been blackguarded by the Gardai back then.

Might be worth an application seeing as the law seems to be on your side and the spotlight is on the behaviour of the Gardai much more so now than back in 2008.

I doubt i'd bother tbh, i have a .22 pistol and with the banning of practical shooting i don't see much point.

smmember20

BattleCorp wrote: »

There's a bit of an arugment going on as to whether or not centrefire pistols can be substituted. I've seen no official proof that it is legally allowed. I'm not saying it's not allowed, it's just that the vast majority of us have seen nothing official.

Are you a member of NASRPC through one of the clubs, in December 2017, the DOJ issued a statement to all FCP members including the NASRPC, this is the definitive statement related to the advices from the AG, I am sorry I cannot find my copy but it is there in black and white and tell me all the armchair solicitors are better thand the advice from the DOJ on foot of the advices from AG.

smmember20

tudderone wrote: »

I doubt i'd bother tbh, i have a .22 pistol and with the banning of practical shooting i don't see much point.

Well indeed that's your choice.

Witcher

smmember20 wrote: »

Are you a member of NASRPC through one of the clubs, in December 2017, the DOJ issued a statement to all FCP members including the NASRPC, this is the definitive statement related to the advices from the DPP, I am sorry I cannot find my copy but it is there in black and white and tell me all the armchair solicitors are better thand the advice from the DOJ on foot of the advices from DPP.

The DPP had nothing to do with that.

Grizzly 45

Advice from the attorney general methinks .

BattleCorp

smmember20 wrote: »

Are you a member of NASRPC through one of the clubs, in December 2017, the DOJ issued a statement to all FCP members including the NASRPC, this is the definitive statement related to the advices from the DPP, I am sorry I cannot find my copy but it is there in black and white and tell me all the armchair solicitors are better thand the advice from the DOJ on foot of the advices from DPP.

I was a member of the NASRPC but not any more. Maybe I will again, some day.

With respect, and this is in no way a dig at you, the law as it stands seems to ban giving out licences for centrefire pistols that weren't licenced before November 2008 so until I see absolute proof that it's legal to substitute centrefire pistols I'll go with what the law seems to say. In other words, if the Gardai give you a licence for a centrefire pistol, that licence isn't valid so you would be in possession of an unlicenced firearm.

Again, apologies if it looks like I am attacking you; I'm not. But I wouldn't hang my coat on an unseen statement from the DOJ as they have made many errors in the past, not least the recent case they lost along with Revenue over the importation of a stock and some spare parts. If I saw the statement then maybe I'd change my attitude but given that it isn't widely distributed, I've nothing to go on.

Grizzly 45

I'd want to see it in writing from;
The attorney general, the DOJ,and the Cheif Commish stating that this is official,and such an action will be done without let or hindrance in the process.
As well as a clear process on how this is to be done that has to be accepted by the persona designates of Cheif Supers or DC judges.
IOW this has to be as easily done as a substitution lic of any other firearm.

smmember20

Witcher wrote: »

The DPP had nothing to do with that.

Absolutely correct apologies I got the DPP mixed up with the AG!

Sorry

smmember20

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I'd want to see it in writing from;
The attorney general, the DOJ,and the Cheif Commish stating that this is official,and such an action will be done without let or hindrance in the process.
As well as a clear process on how this is to be done that has to be accepted by the persona designates of Cheif Supers or DC judges.
IOW this has to be as easily done as a substitution lic of any other firearm.

I really can't understand this attitude, if you were a member of any organsiation who was a member of the FCP in December 2017 they were circulated with the communication from Justice (ask them for a copy), of course if you have no association with any member organsiation of the FCP then what can I say..................

BattleCorp

smmember20 wrote: »

I really can't understand this attitude, if you were a member of any organsiation who was a member of the FCP in December 2017 they were circulated with the communication from Justice (ask them for a copy), of course if you have no association with any member organsiation of the FCP then what can I say..................

Given that many shooting organisations have done solo runs in the past, there's a reason that there is a little distrust in the shooting community. And it goes without saying that there's general distrust of the autorities too given the way the shooting community has been treated in the past (temporary custody order etc).

Call me the 'Doubting Thomas' but I'd like to see the actual document and have very robust legal advice that the document has any legal standing before I'd be going and substituting my (hypothetical) centrefire pistol.

tudderone

Some manufacturers, SIG and some others i believe, will sell you a new pistol with your serial number on it, if you return to them the original pistol, which they keep or destroy. Just thought i'd chuck that in to muddy the waters a bit.

BattleCorp

I did a little bit of digging.

I haven't seen the exact document(s) but apparently there was communication from the DOJ some time in 2017 regarding the substitution of centrefire pistols.

It begins roughly like this........and I acknowledge that I may not have it verbatim but............'Although a contrary argument can be made, our legal advice is that, on balance, a Court is likely to find that section bla bla bla of bla bla bla doesn't act as a bar to substituting restricted short firearm under section bla bla bla.

There's a few things there that scare me.

1. It's based on legal advice that the DOJ got. Legal advice isn't always correct. See recent case with Revenue on the importation of a stock and parts.

2. The DOJ admit that a contrary argument can be made. Again, not something you want to see happen before a judge.

3. 'on balance' are words that you don't really want to see in legal advice as it means that things aren't 100% black and white. So it's a gamble with the odds in your favour, but a gamble nonetheless.

There's another worrying part of that same DOJ communication.

It says that you may be able to substitute your pistol and get licenced on another pistol but once the licence on your substitute pistol expires, it can't be renewed as it wasn't licenced before November 2008.

So what are the options then?........substitute it back for your original pistol before it expires and hope the Gardai process that substitution in a timely fashion? Or do you let it expire and put it in storage with a gun dealer while you apply for a new licence on your old pistol?

It's messy at best, and not legal at worst.

smmember20

BattleCorp wrote: »

Given that many shooting organisations have done solo runs in the past, there's a reason that there is a little distrust in the shooting community. And it goes without saying that there's general distrust of the autorities too given the way the shooting community has been treated in the past (temporary custody order etc).

Call me the 'Doubting Thomas' but I'd like to see the actual document and have very robust legal advice that the document has any legal standing before I'd be going and substituting my (hypothetical) centrefire pistol.

Grand ask for it from your FCP rep and stop belly aching!

smmember20

BattleCorp wrote: »

I did a little bit of digging.

I haven't seen the exact document(s) but apparently there was communication from the DOJ some time in 2017 regarding the substitution of centrefire pistols.

It begins roughly like this........and I acknowledge that I may not have it verbatim but............'Although a contrary argument can be made, our legal advice is that, on balance, a Court is likely to find that section bla bla bla of bla bla bla doesn't act as a bar to substituting restricted short firearm under section bla bla bla.

There's a few things there that scare me.

1. It's based on legal advice that the DOJ got. Legal advice isn't always correct. See recent case with Revenue on the importation of a stock and parts.

2. The DOJ admit that a contrary argument can be made. Again, not something you want to see happen before a judge.

3. 'on balance' are words that you don't really want to see in legal advice as it means that things aren't 100% black and white. So it's a gamble with the odds in your favour, but a gamble nonetheless.

There's another worrying part of that same DOJ communication.

It says that you may be able to substitute your pistol and get licenced on another pistol but once the licence on your substitute pistol expires, it can't be renewed as it wasn't licenced before November 2008.

So what are the options then?........substitute it back for your original pistol before it expires and hope the Gardai process that substitution in a timely fashion? Or do you let it expire and put it in storage with a gun dealer while you apply for a new licence on your old pistol?

It's messy at best, and not legal at worst.

So it looks like you have seen the actual document so why all the **llox!

Bottom line it is possible to substitute a CF pistol!!! So lets drop the complications.

BattleCorp

smmember20 wrote: »

So it looks like you have seen the actual document so why all the **llox!

I wasn't rude to you so I'd ask you to repay me the compliment.

I haven't seen the document, I was told what it contained.

But putting that aside, do you still think it's 100% legal to substitute centrefire pistols. You don't think there are any merits in my arugments?

smmember20

BattleCorp wrote: »

I wasn't rude to you so I'd ask you to repay me the compliment.

I haven't seen the document, I was told what it contained.

But putting that aside, do you still think it's 100% legal to substitute centrefire pistols. You don't think there are any merits in my arugments?

Rude I don't think so! But pretending to not know the content appears to be how you were playing it, no apologies I am afraid.

Do I think it 100% legal to substitute a CF pistol, yes I did it april 2020 and would not be so confident if not being someone of many who has sucessfully done same, PS in firness do you actually own a CF pistol?

BattleCorp

smmember20 wrote: »

Do I think it 100% legal to substitute a CF pistol, yes I did it april 2020 and would not be so confident it not being someone of many who has sucessfully done same, PS in firness do you actually own a CF pistol?

You mightn't believe me but best of luck with it. I hope it works out for you.

I don't own a centrefire pistol as I came to the sport a few years outside of the cut-off date. If I could licence one, I'd get one tomorrow.

By the way, I don't have to own a centrefire pistol to have an opinion on legislation. I loosely work with legislation and I don't like when things are not black and white, and I know for a fact that legal advice sometimes isn't correct.

My point is that when push comes to shove, it's legislation that counts and not legal advice.

If you got an awkward Minister or Commissioner, I wouldn't like to be the test case if the Dept. decided to go after you.



That said, the legal advice may well be correct, but it isn't legislation

Grizzly 45

smmember20 wrote: »

I really can't understand this attitude, if you were a member of any organsiation who was a member of the FCP in December 2017 they were circulated with the communication from Justice (ask them for a copy), of course if you have no association with any member organsiation of the FCP then what can I say..................

I have thru the club membership automatic membership with the NASRPC...Who quite frankly,i consider having been asleep at the wheel for the last two major events.The high cap mag ban, the ban on possession of converted assault rifles in Sept 2019...We have had literally crickets on these two topics from this organisation before,or during this event. I had to go and meet personally as the PRO of Firearms United Network Ireland with the DOJ on Dec1st 2109 to get some clarity on this issue.

So forgive me if I come across a tad cynical, that I dont hold very much faith in this organisation that is supposed to represent target shooting,but missed the memo about those two topics that affects some of its members and one of its growing disciplines...

otmmyboy2

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

NASRPC...Who quite frankly,i consider having been asleep at the wheel for the last two major events.The high cap mag ban, the ban on possession of converted assault rifles in Sept 2020...

Agree completely, utterly useless.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

We have had literally crickets on these two topics from this organisation before,or during this event. I had to go and meet personally as the PRO of Firearms United Network Ireland with the DOJ on Dec1st 2109 to get some clarity on this issue.

Did you actually get some clarity?
I know the wording of both is rather dire and unworkable, but did you get anything beyond the usual fobbing off when you enquired?

Grizzly 45

otmmyboy2 wrote: »

Did you actually get some clarity?
I know the wording of both is rather dire and unworkable, but did you get anything beyond the usual fobbing off when you enquired?

Nothing concrete, and maybe an oral agreement to include in the new Garda guidelines, that 20 round rifle mags if irreparably blocked to 10 rounds would be considered complicit with the act on the basis of the HC precedent of the .22 pistol mags... Wouldn't hold my breath or bet the farm on it tho.:(

otmmyboy2

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Nothing concrete, and maybe an oral agreement to include in the new Garda guidelines, that 20 round rifle mags if irreparably blocked to 10 rounds would be considered complicit with the act on the basis of the HC precedent of the .22 pistol mags... Wouldn't hold my breath or bet the farm on it tho.:(

Interesting, I would have thought that any mags restricted to 10 rounds would have been allowable. Given not just the 22 pistol precedent but also tubular mags on shotgun and 22s being restricted in such a way being legal.
A la the 30 round pmag you can replace the baseplate of which limits them to 10 rounds.

jb88

smmember20 wrote: »

Grand ask for it from your FCP rep and stop belly aching!

Never ask the Gardai for legal advice, their job is to prosecute not judge

smmember20

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I have thru the club membership automatic membership with the NASRPC...Who quite frankly,i consider having been asleep at the wheel for the last two major events.The high cap mag ban, the ban on possession of converted assault rifles in Sept 2019...We have had literally crickets on these two topics from this organisation before,or during this event. I had to go and meet personally as the PRO of Firearms United Network Ireland with the DOJ on Dec1st 2109 to get some clarity on this issue.

So forgive me if I come across a tad cynical, that I dont hold very much faith in this organisation that is supposed to represent target shooting,but missed the memo about those two topics that affects some of its members and one of its growing disciplines...

For many years I have seen the organisation go though many phases of development and also rough patches, unfortunatley as with all voluntary organisations it is difficult to sustain high levels of representation as there is a personal cost always to be paid and yes I have seen individuals burn out and fall by the wayside, not the least as a result of sustained abuse by some members of the shooting community.

I see from your post it is easy to be cynical and easy to stand back and make statements just like the above statement, forgive me but I have never seen your goodself step forward to work on any association that represents shooting interests.

The evolution of this thread astounds me I simply added my positive experience related to an achievement by a consolidated effort of a number of associations to clarify the legal postion around substitutions which was done and there is detailled enquiry by folks who don't even have a CF pistol........... I despair!