Batter a Garda, walk out of court before your victim

Kermit.de.frog

Anyone who isn't concerned about basic law and order issues, policing and judiciary in Ireland I urge you to take a trip in to Dublin and spend just 30 minutes walking around O'Connell St, Henry Street, the Quays...and see for yourselves the sad exposed under belly of the consequences of how we have been doing things here.

Feral children, addicts and scumbags have the run of the place. They always had and it's been getting worse but the pandemic has accelerated it.

I pity the first tourists who arrive back. Capital city my foot.

batman_oh

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Anyone who isn't concerned about basic law and order issues, policing and judiciary in Ireland I urge you to take a trip in to Dublin and spend just 30 minutes walking around O'Connell St, Henry Street, the Quays...and see for yourselves the sad exposed under belly of the consequences of how we have been doing things here.

Feral children, addicts and scumbags have the run of the place. They always had and it's been getting worse but the pandemic has accelerated it.

I pity the first tourists who arrive back. Capital city my foot.

The city centre has been pretty grim under lockdown, certain areas are ok (where people congregated for coffee/parks etc.) but when the shops close and after dark it has turned into a right kip. Hopefully it will recover soon, but can't see too many people mad to sit outside restaurants in the middle of the city centre on narrow footpaths in the evening

Jequ0n

I did a lot of **** at that age and also had my fair share of assaults but I never would have dreamed of assaulting a police officer. How stupid do you have to be...

But I’m pretty sure the local police would have kicked my ass properly for that

Something wrong on many levels here

beakerjoe

What justice was served here in this case?

A suspended sentence..... on condition he keeps the peace for six months

Its should be suspended, and then to only adding a tiny duration as a condition.

Why is it not for 10 years, if the thug steps out of line again he should be in for at least 3 years IMO.

Why would a Garda bother trying to uphold the law when this is the thanks they get. A major disconnection between Judges and reality.

Overheal

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

You may want to read up on some of the stuff that is smuggled in/confiscated in prisons here, and some of the amenities they are legitimately given, or the court reports of people with dozens of convictions.

Prison should be a deterrent and harsh for particularly repeat offenders, not the chance to catch up with the lads and taxpayer funded holiday break it often is for these people.

As for their "needs". 3 meals a day, prison labour, and basic recreation/entertainment is all they need. Not Skype calls with the family as I read recently.

Are you looking for retribution or rehabilitation. I think we can all agree veering hard into one excludes the other. I don’t think a Skype call is undermining that process. Institutionalization is also a thing. If you want to start institutionalizing prisoners then great, as that’s typically what happens when you spend years locking them up and subjecting them to subhuman treatment. You can thusly get a subhuman class of criminal, who has no love for you, no respect for law and order, and your attitude or the persons thereof that subjected them to that. Such a a former convict person is it a greater risk to recommit again and again or they can never be let back out and either way you’ve got a prison system problem on your hands.

spring lane jack

AnMuinteoirOg wrote: »

Again can you provide any evidence that drugs are prioritised over other crime?

I don't have to spoon feed you as your big enough to search news reports yourself.

Overheal

spring lane jack wrote: »

I don't have to spoon feed you as your big enough to search news reports yourself.

What is argued without evidence may be dismissed without evidence.

spring lane jack

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

That's truly terrible evidence. Terrible.

Just like the response the two girls in the Glen park received from ye Saturday night.
https://www.corkbeo.ie/news/local-news/young-women-knocked-ground-kicked-20463131

When ye don't solve burglaries, assaults, etc just put out some press releases about grow houses and the innocents think ye are out their fighting crime. Lets not forget how ye deal with informers, another topic the general public would be extremely innocent about.

spring lane jack

Overheal wrote: »

What is argued without evidence may be dismissed without evidence.

Like another poster said the mess that is central Dublin is all the evidence you need and as I mentioned in my opening post this isn't just an issue for the guards but involves politics and central Dublin has basically been left to rot by a pack of culchies who don't understand the drug issue.

Paddigol

amacca wrote: »

you are correct...crime it seems does in fact pay for almost everyone except the victim

and it pays highest if you work in the legal profession

That's about as inciteful comment as "illness pays highest if you work in the medical profession". As in, not very inciteful at all and at a guess based on virtually zero knowledge or experience.

Strumms

Overheal wrote: »

Are you looking for retribution or rehabilitation. I think we can all agree veering hard into one excludes the other. I don’t think a Skype call is undermining that process. Institutionalization is also a thing. If you want to start institutionalizing prisoners then great, as that’s typically what happens when you spend years locking them up and subjecting them to subhuman treatment. You can thusly get a subhuman class of criminal, who has no love for you, no respect for law and order, and your attitude or the persons thereof that subjected them to that. Such a a former convict person is it a greater risk to recommit again and again or they can never be let back out and either way you’ve got a prison system problem on your hands.

They had no respect for law and order in the first place, that’s contributed to them becoming criminals / prisoners .

Society doesn’t lock up or institutionalize people. Criminals engage in behaviors that hurt society, their fellow citizens and are a danger to the welfare of others they are enabling their own loss of liberty...

If a shopkeeper sells me matches, I burn out my neighbors car, should the shopkeeper get the blame ? The person who manufactures the matches ?

Welcome to 2021,where personal responsibilities are frowned upon. Always somebody else’s fault.

Overheal

Strumms wrote: »

They had no respect for law and order in the first place, that’s contributed to them becoming criminals / prisoners .

Society doesn’t lock up or institutionalize people. Criminals engage in behaviors that hurt society, their fellow citizens and are a danger to the welfare of others they are enabling their own loss of liberty...

If a shopkeeper sells me matches, I burn out my neighbors car, should the shopkeeper get the blame ? The person who manufactures the matches ?

Welcome to 2021,where personal responsibilities are frowned upon. Always somebody else’s fault.

The prison system fell out of the sky? The prison staff are, literal angels? God decides the schedules and release dates?

We’re talking about whether Skype calls make people reoffend.

amacca

Paddigol wrote: »

That's about as inciteful comment as "illness pays highest if you work in the medical profession". As in, not very inciteful at all and at a guess based on virtually zero knowledge or experience.

I see....well thanks for putting me straight. You sure told me.

I saw a case years ago, similar replicated many times since of a relatively low level thug with numerous antisocial behaviour related convictions (137 in fact) disrupting an A & E tthreatening staff etc to gain access to another thug (I'll have to admit thug is my word here so you can probably see the bias) that he want to beat even further into a pulp while he was receiving treatment.

This person was handed a suspended slap on the wrist for that one with the usual defence arguments of deprived background etc etc used

I then concluded that there could be a number of reasons for this somewhat puzzling way the "justice" system appeared to "work"

1) the judges etc were afraid of this individual and the personal consequences of actually imposing some sort of meaningful deterrent on the guy that would make him actually stop assaulting/intimidating people....I mean presumably we can agree that the leniency he had been treated with the previous 137 times didn't appear to work

138th attempt might be the charm though I suppose.

2) if they did sort him out and extended that pattern at say something reasonable like the 4/5 offence (still 3/4 too many in my book) that wouldn't be nearly as profitable as the steady stream of income the guy would provide over his career of consistent reoffending - in terms of the free legal aid paid to those that defend him and the monies paid to the various ancillaries that try to help/rehabilitate/advocate for him

3) some combination of 2/3 above

Now I admit it's a pretty simplistic and uninformed assessment of the situation so I can only wait with baited breath for your informed rebuttal

AnMuinteoirOg

spring lane jack wrote: »

I don't have to spoon feed you as your big enough to search news reports yourself.

Yes. Your one making the claims here without providing any evidence.

amacca

Overheal wrote: »

Are you looking for retribution or rehabilitation. I think we can all agree veering hard into one excludes the other. I don’t think a Skype call is undermining that process. Institutionalization is also a thing. If you want to start institutionalizing prisoners then great, as that’s typically what happens when you spend years locking them up and subjecting them to subhuman treatment. You can thusly get a subhuman class of criminal, who has no love for you, no respect for law and order, and your attitude or the persons thereof that subjected them to that. Such a a former convict person is it a greater risk to recommit again and again or they can never be let back out and either way you’ve got a prison system problem on your hands.

Id argue they are behaving in a subhuman way intimidating/assaulting people in the first place

Id be looking for retribution as a deterrent. It's about the only thing that works as a deterrent for a small percentage of offenders. I was assaulted as a teenager for simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time. A slap on the wrist didmt work for that person he went on to assault someone give them permanent eye damage and have to have a metal plate inserted in their head before eventually stabbing someone with a screwdriver. Wouldn't surprise me if he was out walking around now. Was ordered to pay a certain (derisory amount) to the victim for the eye damage caused and barely paid anything and couldn't be forced either now that I think about it.

That's not justice in my book, rehabilitation or not. It's a mockery of it.

Overheal

amacca wrote: »

Id argue they are behaving in a subhuman way intimidating/assaulting people in the first place

Id be looking for retribution as a deterrent. It's about the only thing that works as a deterrent for a small percentage of offenders. I was assaulted as a teenager for simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time. A slap on the wrist didmt work for that person he went on to assault someone give them permanent eye damage and have to have a metal plate inserted in their head before eventually stabbing someone with a screwdriver. Wouldn't surprise me if he was out walking around now. Was ordered to pay a certain (derisory amount) to the victim for the eye damage caused and barely paid anything and couldn't be forced either now that I think about it.

That's not justice in my book, rehabilitation or not. It's a mockery of it.

Not a rehabilitated person no. Not that I agree treating people who act subhuman, as subhuman, is a humane thing to be doing, however human it is to understand the impulse. That said no court is going to order his eye be removed or that his skull be crushed in so as to require a metal plate. “Eye for an eye” is an archaic form of justice I felt the western world anyway had since moved past.

beakerjoe

amacca wrote: »

Id argue they are behaving in a subhuman way intimidating/assaulting people in the first place

Id be looking for retribution as a deterrent. It's about the only thing that works as a deterrent for a small percentage of offenders. I was assaulted as a teenager for simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time. A slap on the wrist didmt work for that person he went on to assault someone give them permanent eye damage and have to have a metal plate inserted in their head before eventually stabbing someone with a screwdriver. Wouldn't surprise me if he was out walking around now. Was ordered to pay a certain (derisory amount) to the victim for the eye damage caused and barely paid anything and couldn't be forced either now that I think about it.

That's not justice in my book, rehabilitation or not. It's a mockery of it.

Im all for police serving some baton to skull justice on these lowlifes.

They do nothing for society except harm. A good baton to the skull may act as a deterrent to the rest of em.

Overheal

beakerjoe wrote: »

Im all for police serving some baton to skull justice on these lowlifes.

They do nothing for society except harm. A good baton to the skull may act as a deterrent to the rest of em.

Love and awl bout of extrajudicial punishment meted out on suspects in a society where innocence is assumed until guilt is proven in a court of law as argued by a prosecution and a defense and a verdict determined by a jury of peers. Sure - Derek Chauvin bate the **** out of some belligerent teenager in 2017 with a flashlight. Nothing wrong with that? It’s not like police brutality ever killed anyone either when it went too far, none of them develop a sense of entitlement

beakerjoe

Overheal wrote: »

Love and awl bout of extrajudicial punishment meted out on suspects in a society where innocence is assumed until guilt is proven in a court of law as argued by a prosecution and a defense and a verdict determined by a jury of peers. Sure - Derek Chauvin bate the **** out of some belligerent teenager in 2017 with a flashlight. Nothing wrong with that? It’s not like police brutality ever killed anyone either when it went too far, none of them develop a sense of entitlement

These yakballs arent innocent.

There will be no "brass monkies lives matter" marches.

amacca

Overheal wrote: »

Not a rehabilitated person no. Not that I agree treating people who act subhuman, as subhuman, is a humane thing to be doing, however human it is to understand the impulse. That said no court is going to order his eye be removed or that his skull be crushed in so as to require a metal plate. “Eye for an eye” is an archaic form of justice I felt the western world anyway had since moved past.

I'm not saying eye for eye either....thats barbaric (imo) although there are some for whom you wonder if it is the only way to deal with them.

I am saying actual consequences that the offender finds unpleasant as a deterrent. What's happening now is not a deterrent. If thats not jail time fine. If it's a period of physical labour fine if you need to get creative without descending to savagery fine but it must be something unpleasant/undesirable for the ofdender (no social supports etc) and there needs to be no way out of it bar genuine verified medical unsuitability...and as an offender you need to know every time (every single time you step over the line) it's coming down harder on you and it's inescapable.

Then offer the way out/rehabilitation.

Overheal

beakerjoe wrote: »

These yakballs arent innocent.

There will be no "brass monkies lives matter" marches.

Their guilt may perhaps in some cases be incredibly simple to ascertain, be prima facie, etc. but brutalizations while in custody can lead to very poor outcomes, like outright dismissal of pending charges or compensation paid out to the suspect-come-victim by the taxpayer, ultimately. It also leads to inconsistent results, two suspects apprehended for the same crime with similar attitudes about being arrested may have entirely different injuries sustained by such acts of ‘street justice,’ meaning you’d have a systemic error with your criminal justice system, by public endorsement no less, that treats suspects differently for the same offenses. That is why the judicial sentencing process is the way it is.

beakerjoe

I prefer a scenario where we scoop all the yakballs from Abbey Street/Talbot Street/ Gardener St etc up, ship them off to the Aran Islands (sorry lads) in a battle royale type competition......one bag of drugs on a pole, fight to the death between stabbser, johnner and screwdriver.....Last one standing gets the heroin/crack.

It would be great television too, solve RTEs woes too if it was televised. Everyone wins (almost).

Overheal

beakerjoe wrote: »

I prefer a scenario where we scoop all the yakballs from Abbey Street/Talbot Street/ Gardener St etc up, ship them off to the Aran Islands (sorry lads) in a battle royale type competition......one bag of drugs on a pole, fight to the death between stabbser, johnner and screwdriver.....Last one standing gets the heroin/crack.

It would be great television too, solve RTEs woes too if it was televised. Everyone wins (almost).

So the movie Gamer with Father Ted’s budget?

Strumms

I believe that if you assault a Garda... there should be zero ability for any court, any judge to impose a non custodial sentence...

Assault a Garda in the execution of their duty, the max sentence in 7 years so how is this individual getting zilch ?

Just judges shouldn’t be of the ability to do it.., for certain crimes there needs to be minimum sentencing, this is one.

spring lane jack

spring lane jack wrote: »

Just like the response the two girls in the Glen park received from ye Saturday night.
https://www.corkbeo.ie/news/local-news/young-women-knocked-ground-kicked-20463131

When ye don't solve burglaries, assaults, etc just put out some press releases about grow houses and the innocents think ye are out their fighting crime. Lets not forget how ye deal with informers, another topic the general public would be extremely innocent about.

More generalized mud slinging. Again, can you back why if this up with stats? You know the prison system are nice enough to allow the cso access this information? Please read it sometime.

spring lane jack wrote: »

Like another poster said the mess that is central Dublin is all the evidence you need and as I mentioned in my opening post this isn't just an issue for the guards but involves politics and central Dublin has basically been left to rot by a pack of culchies who don't understand the drug issue.

Says the man that claims drugs is all the Gardai care about.

Would ya make up your mind!

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

I believe that if you assault a Garda... there should be zero ability for any court, any judge to impose a non custodial sentence...

Assault a Garda in the execution of their duty, the max sentence in 7 years so how is this individual getting zilch ?

Just judges shouldn’t be of the ability to do it.., for certain crimes there needs to be minimum sentencing, this is one.

I said it before, at some stage we need to start utilizing the stick more.

I consider myself a reasonable person so let's say that after the Gardai issue an adult caution and after the judge issues their warning under the probation act you street getting convictions. So your first conviction will actually be the third time you are caught counting a crime.

Now let's say that after 5 convictions, a minimum sentence kicks in. Again being reasonable, let's say 20% and then the prison can still issue 20% remission. So assault carries 5 years in this case. 7th time unlucky gets you 1 year sentence minus the 20% remission. You must serve 10 months. It's that really so harsh? I don't think so.

On your, let's say 10th conviction, you must get 50%. That's 2.5 years after your 12th time getting caught. Minutes 20%, 2 years served.

20th conviction, sorry but it's time to accept you cannot be a productive member of society and it's time to remove you for the sake of society. 100% kicks in. That's 5 years for assault.

Now you could be really really lenient here and say this only applies when you rack to 5 / 10 / 20 convictions for the same offence. Personally I would still accept that because scumbags tend to commit the same crimes over and over. Robbers will rob, pickpockets will pick pockets.

Overheal

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I said it before, at some stage we need to start utilizing the stick more.

I consider myself a reasonable person so let's say that after the Gardai issue an adult caution and after the judge issues their warning under the probation act you street getting convictions. So your first conviction will actually be the third time you are caught counting a crime.

Now let's say that after 5 convictions, a minimum sentence kicks in. Again being reasonable, let's say 20% and then the prison can still issue 20% remission. So assault carries 5 years in this case. 7th time unlucky gets you 1 year sentence minus the 20% remission. You must serve 10 months. It's that really so harsh? I don't think so.

On your, let's say 10th conviction, you must get 50%. That's 2.5 years after your 12th time getting caught. Minutes 20%, 2 years served.

20th conviction, sorry but it's time to accept you cannot be a productive member of society and it's time to remove you for the sake of society. 100% kicks in. That's 5 years for assault.

Now you could be really really lenient here and say this only applies when you rack to 5 / 10 / 20 convictions for the same offence. Personally I would still accept that because scumbags tend to commit the same crimes over and over. Robbers will rob, pickpockets will pick pockets.

So then go back to the statute book and write up laws for the first, second, and subsequent offenses. Works over here.

beakerjoe

beakerjoe wrote: »

I prefer a scenario where we scoop all the yakballs from Abbey Street/Talbot Street/ Gardener St etc up, ship them off to the Aran Islands (sorry lads) in a battle royale type competition......one bag of drugs on a pole, fight to the death between stabbser, johnner and screwdriver.....Last one standing gets the heroin/crack.

It would be great television too, solve RTEs woes too if it was televised. Everyone wins (almost).

Didn't ray liotta play johner in this back in 1994?

Lewis_Benson

He will be a target for pissed off guards, will probabaly get a few slaps one of the times he is caught.

Overheal

Lewis_Benson wrote: »

He will be a target for pissed off guards, will probabaly get a few slaps one of the times he is caught.

Perhaps, and that behavior would be an indictment on the officers. If the courts don't punish a felon to the satisfaction of a LEO they should be prosecuted themselves to the maximum extent of the law for exhibiting such contempt of the criminal justice system. Personally I wouldn't want that psychology on my police force whatsoever.