The Davy scandal

Pelezico

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

There is something much bigger going on here

It seems pretty big to me. It is all over the news.

Snickers Man

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Try tell that to the widows and widowers of folk who committed suicide when their houses were repossessed due to being f-ked over by the banks

Not all of those were people who had, or once had, tracker mortgages. Many of them were people who NEVER had trackers and whose interest rates were kept high to subsidise those on trackers.

Your sympathy seems to be selective.

Mike Murdock wrote: »

I really hope you'll be so circumspect if a bank or financial services provider screws you over for a goddamn percentage.

Again, the people who were "screwed over" were those who never had trackers. Their interest rates were kept high because those who had trackers, gave them up for fixed rate mortgages and then wanted them back again when rates fell but were told "Sorry. That special offer is no longer available" went "Wah. Not fair!! We want our special deal back!!!"

Right now, there are indications that interest rates are likely to rise soon. See this article in the Irish Times last week "Era of free money could be coming to an end"Which means interest rates will go up.

When that happens, tracker mortgage rates will go up. Maybe banks will keep other lenders' rates at the same rate or at least not raise them by as much as they will be able to raise trackers. (They're already higher anyway, remember!)

If that happens, and some people on trackers then try to lock in for a while, should they be allowed the one way bet of moving back to their trackers at a later date? Subsidised by the rest of us?

Would it be a scandal if they were told "Sorry. You gave up the deal, you can't have it back"?

So why was it a "scandal" last time?

dotsman

Snickers Man wrote: »

Not all of those were people who had, or once had, tracker mortgages. Many of them were people who NEVER had trackers and whose interest rates were kept high to subsidise those on trackers.

Your sympathy seems to be selective.



Again, the people who were "screwed over" were those who never had trackers. Their interest rates were kept high because those who had trackers, gave them up for fixed rate mortgages and then wanted them back again when rates fell but were told "Sorry. That special offer is no longer available" went "Wah. Not fair!! We want our special deal back!!!"

Right now, there are indications that interest rates are likely to rise soon. See this article in the Irish Times last week "Era of free money could be coming to an end"Which means interest rates will go up.

When that happens, tracker mortgage rates will go up. Maybe banks will keep other lenders' rates at the same rate or at least not raise them by as much as they will be able to raise trackers. (They're already higher anyway, remember!)

If that happens, and some people on trackers then try to lock in for a while, should they be allowed the one way bet of moving back to their trackers at a later date? Subsidised by the rest of us?

Would it be a scandal if they were told "Sorry. You gave up the deal, you can't have it back"?

So why was it a "scandal" last time?

After 10 years of the tracker scandal, if you don't want to or are unable to understand what happened (and is still happening), that's up to you, but it is really upsetting to the many victims and you're really dragging this thread off topic.

dubrov

dotsman wrote:

After 10 years of the tracker scandal, if you don't want to or are unable to understand what happened (and is still happening), that's up to you, but it is really upsetting to the many victims and you're really dragging this thread off topic.

Not moving people back onto trackers wasn't as clear cut as you make out. Hence the reason why it took so long for a ruling

Calahonda52

dubrov wrote: »

Not moving people back onto trackers wasn't as clear cut as you make out. Hence the reason why it took so long for a ruling

.
Wrong, just plain wrong.
.
The CBI dragged its feet, or may have even had to get prosthetics to get up off its ass to take action.
The banks just stone walled.

Read about it on AAM and see who the real hero of this period was.

I know a lot of stuff about science and history, movies, sport etc...I have no interest in finance and/or commerce. I had a friend who works in the industry tell me last weekend, that what happened was highly shifty and illegal..

If so, rather than writing emergency legislation into law, stopping me going beyond 5km's from home, why isn't McEntee all over the news asking for prison sentences? if indeed it was that bad??

furious here!! :mad:

Calahonda52

https://www.davy.ie/about-us/history.html
this looks good!
90 years making a difference
Since our beginning in 1926, we have continuously broken new ground in the industry, spearheading the expansion of financial and capital markets in Ireland, and providing bold new opportunities for investors. Throughout this time, the name Davy has stood for integrity and trust as we build relationships with our clients based on mutual respect.

54and56

Guess whose website these snippets are taken from

PintOfView

Calahonda52 wrote: »

https://www.davy.ie/about-us/history.html
this looks good!
90 years making a difference
Since our beginning in 1926, we have continuously broken new ground in the industry, spearheading the expansion of financial and capital markets in Ireland, and providing bold new opportunities for investors. Throughout this time, the name Davy has stood for integrity and trust as we build relationships with our clients based on mutual respect.

The 'controversy' section of their wikipedia page casts a bit of doubt on their claims of uninterrupted integrity since 1926
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Group

blanch152

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Try tell that to the widows and widowers of folk who committed suicide when their houses were repossessed due to being f-ked over by the banks

Repossessions are lower in Ireland than in any other country in the EU, it is why we have the highest mortgage interest rates in the EU.

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

Repossessions are lower in Ireland than in any other country in the EU, it is why we have the highest mortgage interest rates in the EU.

The brazen don't get repossessed, the vulnerable do.
This is all off-topic. Davy aren't a bank. They are a stockbroker.

Snickers Man

dotsman wrote: »

After 10 years of the tracker scandal,..... and you're really dragging this thread off topic.

Fair point. And I've made mine.

Back on topic. Now that the NTMA has withdrawn its business from Davy there is not a single stockbroking firm in the country that our government will trust to sell its own bonds!!!

Is this normal in a democracy? Is it common place for reputable democracies to entrust the raising of sovereign debt entirely to foreign firms?

Pelezico

Snickers Man wrote: »

Fair point. And I've made mine.

Back on topic. Now that the NTMA has withdrawn its business from Davy there is not a single stockbroking firm in the country that our government will trust to sell its own bonds!!!

Is this normal in a democracy? Is it common place for reputable democracies to entrust the raising of sovereign debt entirely to foreign firms?

Well we are selling to external bodies. What is the problem?

As for Davy's, they are in a very precarious position at present. To refer to that famous anti Nixon add of the 1960s. Would you buy a used car from this man?

Muahahaha

blanch152 wrote: »

Repossessions are lower in Ireland than in any other country in the EU, it is why we have the highest mortgage interest rates in the EU.

He is talking about the tracker scandal, i.e. the one where people had legitimate tracker mortgages with the banks, got moved off them and some ended up losing their family home because they couldnt afford the new variable mortgage rates. Ulster Bank alone had to refund almost 10,000 people who they tried to screw out of their trackers. No one went to prison for that one either.

Pelezico

Muahahaha wrote: »

He is talking about the tracker scandal, i.e. the one where people had legitimate tracker mortgages with the banks, got moved off them and some ended up losing their family home because they couldnt afford the new variable mortgage rates. Ulster Bank alone had to refund almost 10,000 people who they tried to screw out of their trackers. No one went to prison for that one either.

There was no personal gain. Why should anyone give to jail for trackers?

54and56

Pelezico wrote: »

Well we are selling to external bodies. What is the problem?

Exactly, not many Irish manufacturers looking to sell their products to international buyers use an Irish located distributor, they appoint agents/distributors in the target markets.

Why should bonds be any different, especially in a time when all related data and relationships can be facilitated so easily via modern IT.

Brokers in target countries who have local relationships they can leverage are worth having.

Davy in Dublin................ What drop off in bond sales would not having them part of the marketing process have, in real tangible terms?

Snickers Man

Pelezico wrote: »

As for Davy's, they are in a very precarious position at present. To refer to that famous anti Nixon add of the 1960s. Would you buy a used car from this man?

Never mind that. Would you let them SELL a used car for you?

dotsman

Pelezico wrote: »

There was no personal gain. Why should anyone give to jail for trackers?

Wow!

• A group of people conspiring to willingly commit fraud to the tune of billions of euro.
• Stealing huge sums of money on a regular basis over the course of years.
• Years of lying to regulators and the media.
• Lying to Orieachtas Committees.
• Driving people out of and stealing their homes.
• Driving people to suicide.

But you're right - jail should be out of the question. Perhaps we should send them to bed without their dinner - that'll teach them.

In one single incident of white collar crime, had those people responsible for the tracker fraud gone to jail (with significant sentences) and had all their assets seized by CAB (to hell with their spouse & children), we would have made massive inroads into white collar crime in this country. That one single incident would have been enough to have every person in every meeting in every company all over the country for years to come step up and say "maybe we should reconsider" the next time someone suggested screwing over their customers/staff/shareholders as a viable option.

Anyway, the tracker fraud scandal is its own (series of) threads, not this one.

dotsman

dotsman wrote: »

Wow!

• A group of people conspiring to willingly commit fraud to the tune of billions of euro.
• Stealing huge sums of money on a regular basis over the course of years.
• Years of lying to regulators and the media.
• Lying to Orieachtas Committees.
• Driving people out of and stealing their homes.
• Driving people to suicide.

But you're right - jail should be out of the question. Perhaps we should send them to bed without their dinner - that'll teach them.

In one single incident of white collar crime, had those people responsible for the tracker fraud gone to jail (with significant sentences) and had all their assets seized by CAB (to hell with their spouse & children), we would have made massive inroads into white collar crime in this country. That one single incident would have been enough to have every person in every meeting in every company all over the country for years to come step up and say "maybe we should reconsider" the next time someone suggested screwing over their customers/staff/shareholders as a viable option.

Anyway, the tracker fraud scandal is its own (series of) threads, not this one.

Yep this 100%..brendan drum, fingers fingleton and the likes raised the bar..they walk every time..

Muahahaha

Pelezico wrote: »

There was no personal gain. Why should anyone give to jail for trackers?

Ive got news for you. senior bankers get shares in the bank they work for and performance related bonuses too. Of course there was personal gain :rolleyes:

Sheep Shagger

From the Irish Times this morning...

Bank of Ireland has made an exploratory approach to Davy about the possibility of doing a deal, should the crisis-stricken stockbroking firm seek to find a buyer as it grapples with the fallout of a Central Bank fine and rebuke over market rules breaches. Cliff Taylor and Joe Brennan have the details.

54and56

Pelezico wrote: »

There was no personal gain. Why should anyone give to jail for trackers?

The proceeds of the tracker scandal helped pay salaries which might otherwise not be viable.

It's not very hard to establish a direct connection between bankers illegally screwing customers and the proceeds of that action propping up the same bankers salaries.

blanch152

Muahahaha wrote: »

He is talking about the tracker scandal, i.e. the one where people had legitimate tracker mortgages with the banks, got moved off them and some ended up losing their family home because they couldnt afford the new variable mortgage rates. Ulster Bank alone had to refund almost 10,000 people who they tried to screw out of their trackers. No one went to prison for that one either.

Very few people lose their family home in Ireland, it is extremely rare and only applies in the most delinquent cases where people make no effort with the banks.

Pelezico

blanch152 wrote: »

Very few people lose their family home in Ireland, it is extremely rare and only applies in the most delinquent cases where people make no effort with the banks.

That is why interest rates are the highest in EU. so difficult to repossess property.

In any case, this thread is about Davys. Their behaviour was completely unscrupulous. The guy selling the bonds was a forced seller and they rinsed him for personal gain.

circadian

Their brokerage fees are astronomical, and in the new world of low brokerage fees I don't see them doing to well anyway.

The J Stands for Jay

circadian wrote: »

Their brokerage fees are astronomical, and in the new world of low brokerage fees I don't see them doing to well anyway.

The whole point of using them, it seemed to me, was for their investment advisory services. And we keep seeing these examples of how it may not be in your best interests to trust them.

Mongfinder General

McGaggs wrote: »

The whole point of using them, it seemed to me, was for their investment advisory services. And we keep seeing these examples of how it may not be in your best interests to trust them.

A stockbroker of that size must have tens of thousands of clients. Probably the same people ranting and raving about heads on pikes for the past week or so. If there’s an easy buck to be made, even the most Outspoken and critical amongst will likely go for it. If you offered a 10% return on investment in exchange for bending a few rules a lot of us would take it.

jay0109

It says something about this banana republic of ours, that after the banking crashes and tracker scandals etc, the CB could say in their appearance before the Dáil committee yesterday that no laws had been broken.
Truly stunning

Muahahaha

blanch152 wrote: »

Very few people lose their family home in Ireland, it is extremely rare and only applies in the most delinquent cases where people make no effort with the banks.

Second time you've missed the point. The poster was talking of the actual tracker scandal where customers of all the five main banks were moved off their trackers against their will and some lost their family homes because they could not afford the new interest rates imposed upon them. This has been reported in all the main media, the Central Bank wrote a big report on it,, 40,000 people were effected and the banks had to compensate them to the tune of almost 700 million.

So your claim that house repossessions only apply to the most delinquent cases is demonstrably false and the Central Bank report backs that up. People literally lost their family homes through no fault of their own.

Stovepipe

Pelezico wrote: »

There was no personal gain. Why should anyone give to jail for trackers?

Because they took five grand off me? Didn't bother telling me and we only discovered by accident. That little scam extended my mortgage by four months. If I nicked five quid off you,you'd want me banged up or given at least a boot up the arse. That scam had to have been thought up by someone, had to have the approval of senior executives to even begin to operate and finally,someone had to push a button on a keyboard to set it in motion. It took a fraction of a second to take money from me but it took years to get it back. Some people lost their houses from it. Yet,you think there was no personal gain? Bank officials continued to get their bonuses and their representatives continued to lobby on their behalf that they be allowed to exceed the Govt limit on salary scales. The ordinary householder took the hit, yet again, because some guys in a bank decided that those punters were getting too much gain from a mortgage. So, as far as I am concerned, I'd happily jail any of the bank staff involved, instead of allowing them to head off with a safe pension and a redundancy cheque to ease their passage.