What to do here?

_Kaiser_

Tell her she has till end of tomorrow to get out or you will be calling the Gardai to have her escorted out as a tresspasser in your home.

_Kaiser_

Graces7 wrote: »

How old is this person> Sounds about 2?

fran38 wrote: »

26 yrs of age.

You'd be surprised how immature and entitled a lot of "young adults" are nowadays.

Too much social media and parents who didn't really do discipline or say no to them growing up.

Dav010

Graces7 wrote: »

Please call " Threshold"? I know this is not normal tenancy stuff but they are so used to situations like this and will be able to advise and maybe act as advocate for you? With the voice of some authority. They did that for me with a tough tenancy I had. Called the agent and charmed them!

And yes give the Gardaí the heads up .

Threshold is tenant focused, it isn’t surprising they helped you as you are a tenant. It would not surprise anyone here if Threshold advised the op that the licensee has more rights that she actually is entitled to.

ted1

fran38 wrote: »

So the two separate solicitor practices in the village contacted me. I relayed events leading up to her mams phone rant and my wish to get her out by Sunday. Both solicitors admitted that they were ignorant in tenancy/licencee law. One solicitor said that the lodger can't keep up the level of disruption until she leaves on the 31st so can I endure it till then while the other one said that because the lodger has resided in my house for the last 1.5/2 years then maybe she's afforded some level of tenancy protection. That solicitor will look into it and get back to me in the morning.

I’d question the solicitors knowledge of the laws around licencees

ted1

Graces7 wrote: »

Please call " Threshold"? I know this is not normal tenancy stuff but they are so used to situations like this and will be able to advise and maybe act as advocate for you? With the voice of some authority. They did that for me with a tough tenancy I had. Called the agent and charmed them!

And yes give the Gardaí the heads up .

Do not go near Threshold they are an awful organisation.

fran38

The Gardai were of little help. They both said (female and male Gardai) that they knew little on tenancy rights/legislation as it's not criminal law. What they did say however is that if I changed the locks and evicting the lodger, I'd be in contravention of that Covid eviction ban. They said as far as they knew, licences comes under that too once they've been paying rent. By paying rent on time and as agreed they are afforded some protection. Just like what the solicitors said. They suggested I contact threshold in their ignorance.
I could contact the RTB tomorrow but I was hoping to have something solid behind me when I give the lodger her marching orders later this evening.
The female garda warned me to be extra vigilant in case the lodger accuses me of 'something else'. We all know what that means.

Nomis21

I have spent half my life living with probably around 20 different LICENCEES living with me over the years. Some have become very close friends, some were just nice people and some caused me the sort of grief that you are having.

The latter group were asked for their keys, deposit returned immediately on return of keys, and told to leave immediately. As I had a car and they usually didn't and they had luggage, I offered to take them anywhere they wanted free of charge to speed up the process.

OP you are legally allowed to do this. You don't want anyone like this hanging around causing more trouble. She has her Mum to go to.

ted1

fran38 wrote: »

The Gardai were of little help. They both said (female and male Gardai) that they knew little on tenancy rights/legislation as it's not criminal law. What they did say however is that if I changed the locks and evicting the lodger, I'd be in contravention of that Covid eviction ban. They said as far as they knew, licences comes under that too once they've been paying rent. By paying rent on time and as agreed they are afforded some protection. Just like what the solicitors said. They suggested I contact threshold in their ignorance.
I could contact the RTB tomorrow but I was hoping to have something solid behind me when I give the lodger her marching orders later this evening.
The female garda warned me to be extra vigilant in case the lodger accuses me of 'something else'. We all know what that means.

The RTB doesn’t deal with licencees. Just kick her out.

meijin

fran38 wrote: »

Once she leaves today, I'll change the locks and text her that she's no longer a guest in my house due to her rude behaviour and get her family, who lives nearby to remove her belongings.

this was the best option

sadly, both solicitors & gardai are clueless re. tenancy / licence legislation

RobbieMD

meijin wrote: »

this was the best option

sadly, both solicitors & gardai are clueless re. tenancy / licence legislation

The Gardai don’t need to know tenancy legislation though. It’s not criminal. People saying she’s a trespasser etc are misguided. At least in the criminal context of trespass, she certainly isn’t a trespasser.

ted1

RobbieMD wrote: »

The Gardai don’t need to know tenancy legislation though. It’s not criminal..

Nor is it a tenancy

RobbieMD

ted1 wrote: »

Nor is it a tenancy

And yet the link you posted above seems to provide the same protection to licencees as tenants during this emergency.
Section 1 (2)(b) in the interpretation of amendment to the Act.

James Bond Junior

James Bond Junior wrote: »

Change locks, fire her belonging into black plastic bags and leave them outside the mother's house. Call your local Garda station and inform them of situation beforehand. Don't forget her bowl.

Imagine being 26 and ringing your mam to give out to your landlord


OP, you've been far too nice already. You're becoming a door mat. Change locks immediately and pack her stuff up.

Sarn

RobbieMD wrote: »

And yet the link you posted above seems to provide the same protection to licencees as tenants during this emergency.
Section 1 (2)(b) in the interpretation of amendment to the Act.

My understanding is that licensee in the context of the Act relates to student accommodation as defined in the RTA 2004:

“licence” means a licence—
(a) given by the owner (in this section referred to as the “licensor”) of student accommodation to a student (in this section referred to as the “licensee”), and

Nomis21

Sarn wrote: »

My understanding is that licensee in the context of the Act relates to student accommodation as defined in the RTA 2004:

“licence” means a licence—
(a) given by the owner (in this section referred to as the “licensor”) of student accommodation to a student (in this section referred to as the “licensee”), and

Students are often licencees.
Not all licencees are students.

Caranica

Nomis21 wrote: »

Students are often licencees.
Not all licencees are students.

Yes but the section in the act in relation to licensees is in relation to purpose built student accommodation.

Sarn

Nomis21 wrote: »

Students are often licencees.
Not all licencees are students.

That’s the point I was making. Not being able to serve a notice of termination during the emergency period applies to licensees in student accommodation and not licensees living with the landlord, based on my interpretation.

Nomis21

Caranica wrote: »

Yes but the section in the act in relation to licensees is in relation to purpose built student accommodation.

Students staying in college owned accomodation are classed as licencees.

This is only one of the sections of the law relating to licencees.

Fol20

fran38 wrote: »

I know and I have. But solicitors are pleading ignorance so unless I have the solid backing by law, there is nothing I can do. The tenant is texting me that if I touch her belongings she will regard this as 'criminal trespassing and damage' and 'ill go to the police'. She's not grasping the fact that I can't trespass in my own house as she has no agreement signed. I'll drive down to the gards to see what's what. I'll get back to ye later tonight coz I'm busy.

I’m not sure I believe this.

Solicitors usually don’t plead ignorance given it’s their job. They are usually the most careful people to speak to when I talk to them and usually don’t say something unless they can back it up.

Did they say any of this in writing?

RobbieMD

Sarn wrote: »

My understanding is that licensee in the context of the Act relates to student accommodation as defined in the RTA 2004:

“licence” means a licence—
(a) given by the owner (in this section referred to as the “licensor”) of student accommodation to a student (in this section referred to as the “licensee”), and

There must’ve been a ninja edit by ted1. He had linked the following document earlier

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/act/2020/17/eng/enacted/a1720.pdf

Which includes—-

(2) In this Act—
(a) references to landlord shall be construed as including references to licensor within the meaning of section 37 of the Residential Tenancies (Amendment) Act 2019,
(b) references to tenant shall be construed as including references to licensee within such meaning, and
(c) references to tenancy shall be construed as including references to licence within such meaning.

I only pointed out that Section 1 (2)(b) appears to afford the same protection to licencees as it does to tenants for the purposes of the COVID emergency. The solicitors earlier in the thread seem correct to want to look deeper at it and not rush into given misleading advices. Ultimately it’s their PI insurance on the line if they get it wrong. It’s very easy for casual commenters to say throw her out etc. They won’t have to deal with her if she decides to take it further against the op.

JustAThought

Her parents live around the corner? With that kind of childish behaviour its no wonder she lives elsewhere from them. What age is s/he?

Sit her down and tell her her behaviour is unacceptable and list them. Include the heat and costs - not sure if the bills are split or if they are included - if her antics keep up she will be charged the full costs from her deposit. Tell her you are now deeply concerned for her mental wellbeing and are not prepared to deal with it anymore or have her acting like a child in the house.

Is money very tight with her that she complains about people drinking her booze and juices? Maybe someone is nibbling away at them? Find out from her and get her to quantify it and as a goodwill gesture replace it/ them. Tell tell the other lodger not to use her stuff or store it in their bedroom as people sometimes do - with less lunatic reactions. it might calm the waters for her to hear her claims are being heard and supported somewhat and allow you to make firm rules for behaviour for the remainder of her stay. Remind her she will need a landlords reference to get a new place and if this teenager behaviour keeps up you will not be able to give her one.

Nomis21

RobbieMD wrote: »

There must’ve been a ninja edit by ted1. He had linked the following document earlier

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/act/2020/17/eng/enacted/a1720.pdf

Which includes—-

(2) In this Act—
(a) references to landlord shall be construed as including references to licensor within the meaning of section 37 of the Residential Tenancies (Amendment) Act 2019,
(b) references to tenant shall be construed as including references to licensee within such meaning, and
(c) references to tenancy shall be construed as including references to licence within such meaning.

I only pointed out that Section 1 (2)(b) appears to afford the same protection to licencees as it does to tenants for the purposes of the COVID emergency. The solicitors earlier in the thread seem correct to want to look deeper at it and not rush into given misleading advices. Ultimately it’s their PI insurance on the line if they get it wrong. It’s very easy for casual commenters to say throw her out etc. They won’t have to deal with her if she decides to take it further against the op.

I proposed throwing her out based on pre Covid law. I admit the law might be changed in the current situation. However, personally I would still take the consequences of letting her stay being worse than the consequences of legal action, knowing she had her Mother to go to.

Sarn

But that Act relates back to the meaning of licensee in the RTA 2004, as amended. Ultimately it is a case of making sure that nothing has changed under the “emergency”.

Nomis21

JustAThought wrote: »

Her parents live around the corner? With that kind of childish behaviour its no wonder she lives elsewhere from them. What age is s/he?

Sit her down and tell her her behaviour is unacceptable and list them. Include the heat and costs - not sure if the bills are split or if they are included - if her antics keep up she will be charged the full costs from her deposit. Tell her you are now deeply concerned for her mental wellbeing and are not prepared to deal with it anymore or have her acting like a child in the house.

Is money very tight with her that she complains about people drinking her booze and juices? Maybe someone is nibbling away at them? Find out from her and get her to quantify it and as a goodwill gesture replace it/ them. Tell tell the other lodger not to use her stuff or store it in their bedroom as people sometimes do - with less lunatic reactions. it might calm the waters for her to hear her claims are being heard and supported somewhat and allow you to make firm rules for behaviour for the remainder of her stay. Remind her she will need a landlords reference to get a new place and if this teenager behaviour keeps up you will not be able to give her one.

She is 26 years old. The OP is not her Dad.

Marcusm

The relevant provision is section 3(2)(g) Residential Tenancies Act 2004 which provides that the Act does not apply to

“(g) a dwelling within which the landlord also resides”

The miscreant is entitled to basic contractual protections but none of the additional RTA protections. She has falsely alleged theft and, on being given what should be regarded as adequate notice, has begun to be disruptive and belligerent.

Graces7

Dav010 wrote: »

Threshold is tenant focused, it isn’t surprising they helped you as you are a tenant. It would not surprise anyone here if Threshold advised the op that the licensee has more rights that she actually is entitled to.

Hyperbole much! lol. ….

Actually you are incorrect! Why does that not surprise me!!!!! I realised that after I had posted! But I stand by my suggestion.

In the dispute I had there was wrong on both sides and I got told that very , very firmly.
There was no favouritism at all. No vested interest or one sided favouritism.

They know the law; and I suspect they reject more appeals than they take on. And they never do as you wrongly imply. REALLY!

I mentioned them as ignorant solicitors often respond to an Expert Voice and Threshold are that. And the law is very very clear in this case.

Purple Mountain

Make sure that when you are dealing with her from now on, you have someone with you. The Garda was right on that score.
Make sure you have her deposit ready to hand straight back but don't hand it over until you inspect her bedroom. (Again with a witness).
You're very patient. I'd have had her out on her ear after mommy rang.

Graces7

ted1 wrote: »

Do not go near Threshold they are an awful organisation.

They are grand! Really grand! They investigated both sides, calmed the landlord, pulled me into line too. Called the agent for me even. Wonderful organisation.

And they know the law.

Graces7

Fol20 wrote: »

I’m not sure I believe this.

Solicitors usually don’t plead ignorance given it’s their job. They are usually the most careful people to speak to when I talk to them and usually don’t say something unless they can back it up.

Did they say any of this in writing?

Given the ear-bashing the person and her mother will have given them they may be in shock!