Overtraining - Help needed

liamtech

Hi folks

So for the past year iv been working out at home. I bought a sizeable amount of equipment (Cable Pull Down 100KG Rig, Adjustable Heavy Duty Bench, Dumbbells, Bars, Leg Extension attachment, 150KG+ Plates). I did this not just to stay in shape, but also for my mental health - lifting is vital for me especially when im locked down. Been working very hard most of the time, with a decent split (6/7 days, no doubling on muscle groups, abs/core as a day routine to split the week) - Average week as as follows:

• DAY1 Chest + Shoulders
• DAY2 Back
• DAY3 LEGS
• DAY4 ABS CORE
• DAY5 Triceps (with some delts depending on how much i did on chest day)
• DAY6 Biceps
• DAY7 Rest but decent Power walks

(rest day would fluctuate, and this is a rough example of my week - sometimes rest day would be mid way through, and every few weeks id end up having two rest days - 1 in the middle and one at the end)
usually 15-30 Sets - my android App Log, records a usual total rep range from 150-350 depending on the day.

The results have been great i have hit Personal Bests on most muscles/groups - suffice to say my previous personal best on chest Flat bench, would have been just over 100KG when i was 26yo - at 38, i am now pushing in to 110-115KG range - similar results on most groups/muslces

Anyway last few weeks iv been feeling god aweful. Serious pain between my ribs, issues with joints, - one of the days my core seemed to seize up, and felt like i had just done it the previous day, when it had been a week - i thought i was coming down with something actually- But after consulting a friend who is also a lifter, he is pretty sure i have a proper case of Overtraining on my hands - he reckons a week off MINIMUM otherwise it will just get worse.

I guess i need advice folks - a recovery week. What should i eat? my mate said 'ZERO MEANS ZERO, REST MEANS REST' - would walking be ok? Just to stay active even a little?

What diet would you recommend? Iv been eating liberally - last year turned into one long bulk due to lockdown - im weighing in at 19st 6lb (Im 6ft4 btw - while im certainly not cut, or lean, i wouldnt call myself fat - the only real fat i wanna lose is around my stomach, thighs, etc - im chunky/filled out atm) - I had planned on going hell for leather next few weeks, and then beginning the 'mother of all cuts' in April, weather permitting etc -

Im rather depressed about the whole thing tbh, and i would welcome some advice from anyone who has been in this position before - if any further information is required just let me know

liamtech

Just in case anyone thinks im taking the michael with this, here is some pics of equipment, and my workout log for january

https://ibb.co/d2HS0dh
https://ibb.co/64nkkmq
https://ibb.co/R6MgpQM
https://ibb.co/42T8Dbk
https://ibb.co/qCqcmK7

the baby bull elephant

It is very likely you are not overtrained. Overtraining syndrome is a medical diagnosis and effects a small percentage of endurance athletes. It's become popular online to throw it out when someone needs a rest/deload which is what you're asking about.

Honestly you're probably overthinking it a bit. If you search deload online many people have different things they like to do. Taking the week off is a perfectly valid strategy which some people do others just use about 50% of the weights they usually use and or 50% of the volume. Some people just do some odd lifts where you naturally can't go as hard.

Walking should be fine, provided you're not doing Olympic distances, it's transport not exercise.

For food reducing calories for the week could be a good idea due to less activity but it also aids recovery. Again it's only a week so no need to overthink it.

How often you take a deloads is up to you. Some coaches prescribe every 4th week, every 7th or every 13th some just say when you feel like it.

As an aside are you following an actual programme or just hitting those muscle groups on those days? Congrats on hitting those PRs but if you follow good programming I think you might surprise yourself with how far you could take your bench.

Alf Veedersane

TBBE has said most of what I'd say.

But just to add, it doesn't really matter that you're training 6 out of 7 days. It matters what you're doing in those days.

It looks as though you're likely doing the compounds in the first half of the week and then the show muscles at the end. Spacing these out might help just feeling a little less fatigued.

You could put up what you're doing to give more context but you need to have a balance between work and recovery.

As an aside, two days to cater for biceps and triceps seems like overkill.

Cill94

As has already been said, very unlikely you're overtrained. 'Overreached' is the term that most commonly applies to strength training, meaning you just need a deload.

A week of light training should do the job. There's no hard science to this and I've personally found it to be one of the most individualised things amongst people. If I go too light on a deload I lose a lot of strength, while some others I know can do **** all for the week and feel stronger by the end of it. In general, the week should feel recuperative and you shouldn't have to psyche yourself up for any set. Also important to take a look at your sleep and nutrition, and ensure they're not causing you to feel run down.

Lastly, I think the programme you're following is poorly laid out. The only people who are in a position to be gaining optimally from training legs just once a week are highly advanced lifters. And a full day for abs, arms or chest is silly. I'd recommend you get yourself on either a 3 day full body programme or a 4 day upper-lower split. Go hard enough on those and you won't feel the need to do any extra days.

liamtech

I really appreciate the advice people

Just to clarify a few things that came up

-What i have been feeling lately, is severe tiredness for a start. I put that down to working out early in the morning (always work before 12, usually starting at 9 or 10). In terms of pain, iv been getting a lot of pain between my ribs recently (consulted doctor, prescribed painkillers, it comes and goes but is muscular, and not related to an infection) - Joint issues going back to late january (knees, elbows, neck)- the latest thing is kinda of an all over core pain, which manifests very much like Abs/core related doms - almost every morning it feels like i did a killer abs sesh the day before

-My sets/Reps routine is home grown, based on progressive overload, and working against allowing my muscles adapting to one or two exercises - example of sets below, taken from my lift log in january

Incline Bench - 6 sets - progressing from 65KG for 15 reps, to 85KG for 8reps

Flat Dumbbell Press - 5 sets - progressing from 30KG for 15 Reps, to 40KG for 6 reps

Flat Mid Grip bench (neither close nor full wide grip) - 4 sets - progressing from 65KG to 82.5kg Roughly same rep range although i marked this as FAIL on last set of 6 Reps - i mark them fail if i barely manage to complete

On the same day i some Lateral Delts, Arnie presses and Upward EZGrip Rows -

I tend to always check my last workout log for a particular muscle/group - so the following routine on chest began with Full Flat bench, Incline Dumbbell, and some decline Dumbbell - about 6 days later. And usually a month or more would pass before i would return to the sequence above -

In terms of having a separate day for Triceps (with some delts) and Biceps this was based on advice i found online for gaining on those muscles. I would have to say i definitely noticed an improvement, PARTICULARLY on Biceps. Bicep work on back day was a staple for many years but stagnated some times, and i found a Full Focused Bicep day was fantastic (Again: Varying the exercises and the angles, so one day would be Flat Bar, Preacher supination Curls with a Dumbbell, and Seated incline Hammer curl - following week switched up with some preacher flat, standing supination, and Spider Hammer curls etc etc)

Im gonna take a few days off, and eat healthy - i must admit im enthusiastic about doing a deload RATHER THAN a complete cessation of lifting - I do genuinely appreciate the advice folks

Cill94

liamtech wrote: »

I really appreciate the advice people

Just to clarify a few things that came up

Maybe you're doing too much for your abs. Muscle spasm is usually an indicator of overdoing things.

You're making progress which is great. All I'm saying is that a higher frequency programme that has you training the major muscle groups 2-3x per week will probably lead to better progress and less pain.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=114304405

I'm not surprised you saw an increase in arm size from doing more work for that area. Is it worth doing that though if you're only able to train lower body and back once per week? I don't think so, but it depends on your goals.

Mellor

Unlikely to be overtraining as others are said.
You’re 38, sometimes you’re just gonna be sore.
Take a week off. Completely off.
I currently deload every 4 weeks.

liamtech

Ok so im seven days off lifting - Its been tough, very tough - perhaps i should have deloaded and lifted lighter weights - but anyway im done, back tomorrow

The question i have is, im getting competing narrative on what i should be doing. Was planning a 5 day this week with rest days jammed in and at the end (sorry for the repetition but as an example, this is what i had planned for this week) - rough guide to reps sets etc in ()

Day1: Chest - Delts ( Flat bench Bar, Incline Dumbbell, Lateral Shoulders, Front shoulder raises, some rear delts - aprox 6 exercises, 5-6 sets each)

Day2: Back - (Pull down, Cable row, bent over row, Dead lifts)

Day3: Abs

Day4: Legs (Goblet squats, sumo, hips, quad/hams extensions)

Day5: Tris/Bis (2-3 exercises for each)

I am however, being told by a number of sources that this is wrong

I SHOULD, be doing

Day one: Upper body - no more than 4 exercises (bench, dumbbell, row, pull down)

Day 2: Lower body - squat, lunge,

Day3: round up - everything not covered

No more than 30mins per day - iv been told my old routine is inefficient, and just plain wrong - and is negative.

Id genuinely welcome advice folks - please be advised of my situation

6ft4
19 odd stone - decent build, like i said earlier in the thread, i bulked for 2020, so would not consider myself fat in any way - definitely could lose some body-fat but not obese despite 19st being a lot

Not working - whats killing me is that everyone i talk to, keeps talking about my old split being inefficient - i feel like i need to state clearly here: I have too much time on my hands, im not working, im prone to depression, lifting helps - i couldn care less about 'being efficient' - if a job takes either 20minutes or 4 hours, odds are il take the 4 hour job to keep me busy - its for mental health reasons

That said, sources mentioned above say, not only is it inefficient to work out that much - its just plain wrong - i wont gain muscle, il lose it, weaken, and be injury prone

Folks id really appreciate some options here - for a potential 5-6 day split - as inefficient and drawn out as possible please - i have TOO MUCH TIME ON MY HANDS - not looking to get done and dusted asap - this is to waste time, and keep busy, and do what i love - lift

Inevitably be asked what are goals - briefly - i bulked for a while, as stated most of coved-2020 bulking, but not to crazy excess

Goal for now, get back into it - medium term, re-establish where i am and what i can lift - eventually, when weather perks up - cut

Genuinely stressed folks - advice appreciated - if sources, which include friends and former gym mates are right - just say so (il take up stamp collecting :mad: )

Alf Veedersane

I think a couple of things that are being said about your training are wrong. No more than 30 minutes a day? Wouldn't agree with that. I don't think it would necessarily make you injury prone, get weak etc either.

I do think what you are doing is inefficient insofar as the structure could be rejigged to make better use of your time, ie get more frequency for the compounds but you also need to manage volume and intensity within that. Something like

1- Bench, bench variation (close-grip, wide-grip, incline etc)
2 - Squat, deadlift variation (RDL, opposite stance deadlift, good morning etc.)
3 - OHP, bench variation
4 - Deadlift, squat variation (front squat, pause squat, split squat, etc)
5 - Bench, bench variation

That's just a rough sketch but you get the idea.

That doesn't include the assistance exercises - plenty of scope to include the bicep and tricep work within that, for example you - but just don't feel like you have to throw everything at it for the sake of doing lots of volume. You need to play around a bit to find the level of volume where you are progressing and not accumulating fatigue.

There are loads of 5-day programmes out there that take much of the thinking out of it for you so find one and follow it.

Don't be afraid to train like a powerlifter and have long rests between so stretch out the training sessions :pac:

Also, don't stress about it. What you're doing isn't negative or counterproductive like some people seem to have been telling you. It could be a lot better and, as above, plenty of 5-day programmes for you to do that would help you in a matter of moments.

the baby bull elephant

liamtech wrote: »

Ok so im seven days off lifting - Its been tough, very tough - perhaps i should have deloaded and lifted lighter weights - but anyway im done, back tomorrow

The question i have is, im getting competing narrative on what i should be doing. Was planning a 5 day this week with rest days jammed in and at the end (sorry for the repetition but as an example, this is what i had planned for this week) - rough guide to reps sets etc in ()

Day1: Chest - Delts ( Flat bench Bar, Incline Dumbbell, Lateral Shoulders, Front shoulder raises, some rear delts - aprox 6 exercises, 5-6 sets each)

Day2: Back - (Pull down, Cable row, bent over row, Dead lifts)

Day3: Abs

Day4: Legs (Goblet squats, sumo, hips, quad/hams extensions)

Day5: Tris/Bis (2-3 exercises for each)

I am however, being told by a number of sources that this is wrong

I SHOULD, be doing

Day one: Upper body - no more than 4 exercises (bench, dumbbell, row, pull down)

Day 2: Lower body - squat, lunge,

Day3: round up - everything not covered

No more than 30mins per day - iv been told my old routine is inefficient, and just plain wrong - and is negative.

Id genuinely welcome advice folks - please be advised of my situation

6ft4
19 odd stone - decent build, like i said earlier in the thread, i bulked for 2020, so would not consider myself fat in any way - definitely could lose some body-fat but not obese despite 19st being a lot

Not working - whats killing me is that everyone i talk to, keeps talking about my old split being inefficient - i feel like i need to state clearly here: I have too much time on my hands, im not working, im prone to depression, lifting helps - i couldn care less about 'being efficient' - if a job takes either 20minutes or 4 hours, odds are il take the 4 hour job to keep me busy - its for mental health reasons

That said, sources mentioned above say, not only is it inefficient to work out that much - its just plain wrong - i wont gain muscle, il lose it, weaken, and be injury prone

Folks id really appreciate some options here - for a potential 5-6 day split - as inefficient and drawn out as possible please - i have TOO MUCH TIME ON MY HANDS - not looking to get done and dusted asap - this is to waste time, and keep busy, and do what i love - lift

Inevitably be asked what are goals - briefly - i bulked for a while, as stated most of coved-2020 bulking, but not to crazy excess

Goal for now, get back into it - medium term, re-establish where i am and what i can lift - eventually, when weather perks up - cut

Genuinely stressed folks - advice appreciated - if sources, which include friends and former gym mates are right - just say so (il take up stamp collecting :mad: )

I hope the rest has done you good.

The best split is one you'll follow and be consistent with. Consistency is the name of the game here. That said what you're doing at the moment isn't 'optimal'. I actually hate the word optimal in a fitness context because it gets people lost. What I would recommend is getting on a proven programme. Most of us aren't experienced or qualified enough to programme for ourselves and our better off outsourcing to people who are. A programme is more than just a list of exercises or a split, it has an inbuilt progression model and should tell you how to deal with stalls. Having one takes a lot of the stress and guesswork out of this whole process.

First off I would recommend you have a read of this wiki: https://thefitness.wiki/getting-started-with-fitness/

Most of the questions you have are answered there and it also has links to tired and proven programmes.

I also thought it might be helpful if I list out some of the programmes I've run over the last few years to give you a few ideas. I do personally prefer four days a week based around the big four lifts so they may not be what you want right now.

Fourhorsemen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTUdxnSXxU4) - did a world of good for my conditioning and body composition. Has a weekly mindset challenge which gave me a really good idea of how much I could push myself. Hit PRs on deadlift and OHP off this but bench and squat were stagnant. If I'd had a chance to reduce fatigue with a deload after I might have hit better numbers. Took about an hour on upperbody days and an hour to an hour and a half on lower body.

Nsuns (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1O0scKzbV22jNs3yYcNYymon4fsY7b7PQbWPjstorM4o/edit?usp=drivesdk) - very intense with little time for accessory work. My numbers all went up on it but I wouldn't recommend running it for too long as you go into higher numbers. I did the four-day row variation but there is a a five day or even six day one as well. Probably the programme my bench has done best off.

Juggernaut 2.0 (https://liftvault.com/programs/powerlifting/inverted-juggernaut-method-spreadsheet-3-versions-including-5-3-1/) - was carrying an injury so was only really able to do it for bench and ohp. Hit some rep PRs but was too detrained from higher loads to hit a new one rep max. Full programme is usually four days a week but is customisable. Sessions were around an hour.

5/3/1 Bodybuilding (https://www.jimwendler.com/blogs/jimwendler-com/101075206-5-3-1-and-bodybuilding) - this is fun. Saw plenty of hypertrophy gains and the strength was fine. Four days a week, was doing this in Flyefit when you were only allowed an hour and fifteen minutes, apart from the squat day I never really had an issue being done on time.

Stronger by Science 2.0 (https://www.strongerbyscience.com/program-bundle) does cost $10 but is six highly customisable programmes that last 21 weeks each in one bundle. I ran both the reps to failure and linear progression variants and made excellent progress on both. The RTF one does have the potential to be a very long session though.


Hope I haven't thrown too much at you. Two biggest takeaways, don't stress about being completely optimal and read the r/fitness wiki (but not the actual subreddit!).

liamtech

Ok this is much more positive guys so thanks a million for that

the baby bull elephant

Gonna do some reading before bed and begin a different program - looking at the 4horseman video right now and will definitely re-jig things over the coming days - and continue reading

Alf Veedersane

Thanks for rescuing my sanity - im fairly certain some of what i was being told was a bit off - i suspect many people are very time centric - so efficient fast workouts are the way to go - but what i am getting from you is to increase the amount of compound 'Big' lifts im doing - so that is now a definite for me -

Really do appreciate the advice guys - Iv been lifting since mid twenties and was really serious about it in my early thirties- Im not a novice, and am always form conscious, and into training to failure - i just think a bit of new information on splits is gonna benefit me

Really cant thank you folks enough:)