Cycling Mikey

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545629#Comment_120545629

For all the crap above

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545615#Comment_120545615

Lazy indeed, and probably quite dangerous to be interacting with other drivers at speed, but at least the feckers did something.

Cabaal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545591#Comment_120545591

Interesting take to base your disregarding of reality and facts.

Find it interesting but not at all unsurprising that you've also not posted any stats to counter mine, instead you make a factless claim. That seems to be all your posts are, factless.

But lets use your weird world view for disregarding of reality for other things, I guess it would mean that because I've never seen anybody murdered that means nobody must get murdered. Yes there are stats and figures, but I don't believe those to be accurate

🙄

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545470#Comment_120545470

Let's be honest. Gardai are not policing motorists breaking red lights any more than they are cyclists.

I had 2 cyclists break lights today in my commute. They did so multiple times. I saw multiples of that in cars though. As I do everyday.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545329#Comment_120545329

You also have that more car drivers would jump red lights if they could, but if the vehicle in front doesn't then they can't. Bicycles are not prevented from jumping a light by the vehicle in front stopping at the light, yet the numbers the Gardai have still show less incidents by bikes.

There is also likely a difference in what people consider jumping a red light to be. In a car you put the foot down just as the light goes red and hope that the cars coming the other way are making a slow get away and the pedestrians haven't already started across the road.

On a bike you notice that it's about to be your turn for the lights to go green and start moving before the car behind tries to speed past and get by the parked car across the junction in front, but your looking for any vehicles jumping lights from the other direction... And also starting from a standing start rather than accelerating from already travelling at speed such as the car would be.

magicbastarder

you're not going to be able to resolve the 'do cyclists jump lights more than motorists' argument anyway, not with any data i've seen in ireland.

you'd need to have someone watching camera footage of multiple junctions for a few days, counting all traffic and propensity to jump lights; and to do this separate from actual enforcement because a) we don't know if enforcement is equal and b) enforcement could skew the results anyway.

you'd need various junctions because the nature of the junction likely has an effect on whether one mode might be more likely to jump them; i know junctions where i'd regularly enough see cyclists running the lights, but they don't necessarily correlate with the sort of junctions where i see motorists running them; it's often down to whether there's crossing traffic or not.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120546257#Comment_120546257

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120546343#Comment_120546343

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120546437#Comment_120546437

Is any of you a moderator on this thread/forum?

magicbastarder

yes, and to anticipate your next question, just because someone reports a post, it does not mean any action must be taken.

we're allowing the discussion about RLJing in general.

MangleBadger

I would think cyclists red light jumpers stand out more as you are more likely to see a cyclist break a red light in the middle of the sequence. As in, light has been red for a while, quick look around, carry on. Similar to how a jay walker would cross.

It would be much rarer for a car to just break a red light. But on the other hand if there is a high volume of traffic then you will see a car break a red light and nearly every junction as they try to speed through in time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545113#Comment_120545113

Your own experience, while valid, is completely biased and anecdotal (as is anybody's, including my own). It's probably impossible to get a valid figure for whoever breaks red lights more often. Controlled studies across the world in various different cultures and climates disagree with you, however, cyclists are overwhelmingly more likely to abide by traffic laws than those in cars.

Link - Motorists break (slightly) more rules than cyclists, with a far greater toll on the populace.

Link - Cyclists break FAR fewer road rules than motorists

Link - Cyclists are more law-abiding than drivers

Link - 80% of crashes between cars and bikes caused by drivers in Adelaide

Link - This jumps to 90% in Melbourne

In 88.9% of cases, the cyclist had been travelling in a safe/legal manner prior to the collision/near miss. Most happened at or near a junction (70.3%) and most were caused by sudden lane changes by the motorist, with sideswipe the most frequent cause (40.7%).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120546343#Comment_120546343

Another factor is exposure. If you're driving into town, once you get onto a main road you're generally stuck in a convoy of 3 or 4 cars that are all travelling the same direction. Some turn off and others join in, your group might get broken up at lights etc., but generally you have a core group of maybe 10 cars that you have any major interaction with. However, every single light you stop at will have a different set of cyclists involved. Light goes green, you take off quicker, they overtake, you arrive at the next lights, new set of cyclists. Even if it's only 4 bikes per traffic light, you interact with/observe hundreds of cyclists versus <25 motorists.

On the bike, the reverse is also true. You pass/get passed by hundreds if not thousands of cars when cycling in, and only get to meet the odd cyclists at lights etc.

iwillhtfu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545909#Comment_120545909

You are certainly and interesting individual.

Again my own experience which despite your comment I'm not entirely sure how it can be anything but fact 🤷‍♂️ also I see no point posting outdated "facts" as you put them. Out on a spin this afternoon I spotted 6 cyclists go through red lights 3 at a major junction, 2 at a minor and one at a pedestrian crossing. I also saw one cyclist cycling through a no entry and continue on down a one way street. I also saw another cycling on a crowded foot path. In the same time I saw one car drive through a right turn red light and one car drive toward on coming traffic to avoid a pothole.

I'm not bothered to argue with you despite your best efforts to have everything but a reasoned discussion on the matter. I find it fascinating you manage to get so wound up about something.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120546257#Comment_120546257

This is true but you will find that motorists are more likely to be prosecuted for passing through a red light due to the ease of identifying both driver and vehicle. A garda will be unlikely to go to such efforts most likely because they wont catch said cyclist or know they'll have trouble identifying the cyclist. I dare assume all these stats that folks are throwing up are populated retrospectively and based on prosecutions.

Anyway I'll leave it there as I appreciate RLJ discussions are based very much on opinion, thanks to those with reasoned debate. The other well.. I wish you well.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120547291#Comment_120547291

On my commute this morning I seen a minimum of 3 per light change run a red light. That is minimum so about 21 in a 20 minute commute. The only exception was one side road where there were only 3 motorists there but one managed to not indicate and switch out on his neighbour going around the turn, completely oblivious to what had happened. I counted 3 cyclists in total running reds, all at UCD, every other light they waited except the end of the bike lane from Dun Laoghaire Dart up towards Blackrock where one guy couldn't tell if the green crossing bike applied to him. He did stop and look around before scooting across, not entirely sure if he was breaking the law. I think he was but I can see why he was confused.

If anything, I am surprised the level of red light jumping with cyclists is so low considering how many motorists we see doing it in built up areas.

iwillhtfu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120547369#Comment_120547369

It's very much first person experience that tells the tale, ones person experience may not be the same as anothers. I would not put any weight into those surveys. In saying that though I do see very few cars jumping red lights but I'm not naïve enough to think it does not happen. I'd say Dublin and other cities would see the biggest instance on this along the like of the Stillorgan road and more so on right/left turn lanes in the city.

magicbastarder

Again my own experience which despite your comment I'm not entirely sure how it can be anything but fact

are you being serious? that you have your experience is fact, that's trivial. that you have issue with people not accepting your claimed experience as fact is just odd. this is boards, peoples' experience varies wildly, and can't all be fact. you're recounting anecdotal evidence, and people are taking it as such.

never trust someone with a stupid username on a discussion forum unless they can back up their claims.

iwillhtfu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120547464#Comment_120547464

Aww why is it a stupid username? You've gone and hurt my feelings now.

Well I'd regard my own experience of witnessing something as fact whether you choose to believe it or not is irrelevant. 🤷‍♂️

I see little point in telling lies and as I mentioned earlier I'm more bemused at the naivety of some and then how quick to temper they are when someone dares disagree.

We shall leave it there as quite clearly I'm a black sheep in the cycling community. Motoring forum here I come 😂😂

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120547894#Comment_120547894

Well I'd regard my own experience of witnessing something as fact 

"Fact"

What you have is anecdotal evidence, nothing more

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

Anecdotal evidence is evidence based only on personal observation, collected in a casual or non-systematic manner.

iwillhtfu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120548059#Comment_120548059

Oh I do get it alright don't worry. 👍

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120547894#Comment_120547894

Anecdotal evidence aside, you refer to what you have seen as fact, but what others have witnessed as "not fact". Now I get your view that you don't know if I am lying or not but I have seen similar things to you in the past, a certain club nearer my former house was a horror show for running reds on their club spins but my own club would have "words" with riders who ran reds. So I do believe what you say but I do not believe that one of our opinions can be counted as fact. Now if we all seen it, it might bear more weight but the difference of opinion should highlight why anecdoetal evidence is what it is. It might be fact on that one occasion, in that one location but it is not a general one.

Despite knowing this, the idea that someone doesn't see more motorists than cyclists running reds, in Dublin, is bizarre to me but loads of people believe it, even some who I have witnessed doing it.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120547894#Comment_120547894

it was a self-deprecating dig at my own username. not yours. apologies that i didn't make that clearer.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545329#Comment_120545329

I've actually found myself agreeing with subsequent posts on both sides of the argument. I too would imagine that most of these penalties come from motorists running lights changing to red, which is by far the most frequent issue with RLJing car wise and would be directly targeted, you'd rarely get a cyclist doing same.

Conversely i could technically be accused of the same thing on the other side of the sequence when cycling, given being at the top i can see the lights changing and so get a head start if the junction is clear.

But if the argument is solely confined to mid sequence it would be very very rare for a car to edge forward, check the way is clear, and proceed regardless of the red light. In this instance, cyclists are way in the majority. It does pee me off, i've seen lads do it when i'm on the bike beside them, and think 'you're just ruining it for the rest of us' in terms of how cyclists are going to be perceived.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120548235#Comment_120548235

There's a thread in that MB (if it hasn't already been done). How did you come up with your username and why didn't you realise that it would be stupid to everyone else without an explanation?

Edit

Sorry i should have placed the question in commas as it being the thread title rather than it coming across as a direct question.

CramCycle

He does have a point here, why do people not use hands free, whether you agree with it or not, this car is designed for it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdIeNrX5G1I

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120548356#Comment_120548356

it's about 28 years old by now. i wanted a name while playing deathmatch quake in college which took the piss out of some overly testosteroney names people chose, and 'the magic bastard' was too long to be allowed so settled on magicbastarder.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120548498#Comment_120548498

Tut tut, OT, start a thread :-)

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120548463#Comment_120548463

Could you imagine arriving into your local Garda station with the footage here resulting in an FPN?

AndrewJRenko

What's the obsession with RLJing all about anyway?

If you want to look at offending rates, bring speeding and mobile phone use into play and see how that works out.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120548556#Comment_120548556

But that's all it should take, show the video, issue fine, job done. People can always appeal if they doubt the authenticity. This said, I have told this story a million times, went into a Garda station where I had on camera a) the close pass b) the drivers face c) a confession from said driver. What happened? Nothing. I know some people get results and in theory it is worth reporting but taking an hour out of my day for what appears to be nothing is not worth it anymore.

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120548732#Comment_120548732

It's not a competition in fairness.

I can see both sides of the argument and certainly get where Iwillhtfu is coming from. Even when discussing the subject amongst ourselves in our own forum we're very defensive when the issue of cyclists infringing ROTR is brought up, and it inevitably ends up in a game of whataboutery.

Personally, I'd prefer 24 times more cyclists breaking red lights than motorists because I'm less likely to be killed or even injured by one of the former. But when I pull up at a red light and unclip, I do get a sense of rising anger when the commuters I've just passed casually roll past me and through the red light. Because I know that their actions will be thrown in my face the next time I have an disagreement with an ignorant motorist. And I can sense the audi driver to my right shaking his head in mild fury and muttering "f***ing cyclists".

It's a bit like the eScooter issue - instead of proactively engaging with the reality of what is happening on the ground and engaging in solving issues, the Govt. just puts things on the long finger and adopts a "sure if it ain't completely, undeniably, irretrievably broke, why fix it" approach. What should happen is a change in policy to allow cyclists roll through certain red lights along with a public education campaign aimed at 1) explaining why and 2) explaining that it's part of trying to get more people out of cars, allow more people enjoy our roads and make the roads safer for those who do cycle.

Without a doubt, more cyclists will 'jump' red lights in my experience. That is, the light is red and they just push off and roll through it. Or the light is red before they get there and they amble through it. But equally, much more motorists will accelerate when they see an amber light and blast through the red light knowing that they're doing so. It's chronic. It's almost seen as acceptable practice. You'd almost get a blast of the horn from the car behind if you started slowing as soon as a light turned amber. And very often you'll get two or three cars tailing each other at speed going through a light that has turned red. I get the bus at least three times a week. I can't remember the last time the driver didn't break at least one red light.

So in my experience red light breaking/ jumping is endemic among all road users. The key difference of course lies in the likely/ potential consequences of those actions. Which is why motorists whining about cyclists breaking reds is a bit silly. It would just be nice if, while we're waiting for a more common sense approach in the ROTR, so many cyclists didn't give them the ammunition.

MojoMaker

Good post @Paddigol