Withdrawing large amount of cash

The DayDream

If you just say it's for building work then it should be fine. You got a quote for a building job and the guy wants cash, that's it. Say as little as possible. Builder asked to be paid in cash? Yes Mr banker i figured it was cuz of the pandemic or brexit or whatever. No need to mention the discount.

User1998

Your doing a renovation on your house not buying drugs. Just call the bank beforehand to confirm and withdraw it in one amount. Theres no need to make a big deal about it.

Also the builder declaring or not declaring his income is none of your business. He could go straight to the bank with the €17k for all you know. Its not illegal to receive cash as payment and weather he declares it or not is not your issue

wdmfapq4zs83hv

Thanks for the replies. As you can probably tell I'm a bit of a scaredy cat! I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I thought I was doing something illegal, I know many wouldn't give this a second thought!

Kid Charlemagne

Ronnie Calm Sociology wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. As you can probably tell I'm a bit of a scaredy cat! I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I thought I was doing something illegal, I know many wouldn't give this a second thought!

You might want to be a bit more discreet. Not doing yourself any favours here being so upfront. Doubt its an issue given this is an anonymous forum but dont be blabbing to neighbours/friends etc. Some weird people out there. Would love to squeel on ya.

Jim2007

Ronnie Calm Sociology wrote: »

We have been offered the option of cash. We are weighing it up and I dont want to do anything illegal, therefore I'm asking the questions. The builder is a VAT registered business but is a friend so offered to do the job for cash. Would be saving us 5k. It's a hell of a lot of money to us. I just cant seem to find a definitive answer on whether this is legal or not.

You are entitled to take your money out of the bank in accordance with the terms of your account and you are entitled to pay for goods or services in cash. And you are entitled to assume that a transaction done in the normal course of business is right and proper.

Will your friend issue you with a VAT invoice and related documents for the transactions? The discount is substantial in relation to the overall amount and it could be argued that that should have put you on notice that something was up. But if you have valid supporting documentation and it was at 'mates' rates, I doubt there is much chance of you finding yourself in a tricky situation.

The DayDream

Technique wrote: »

Surely it’s perfectly legal to pay for something with cash? Now if the builder decides to not declare that to revenue then that’s a different matter. But I can’t see how that would be your problem?

It isn't his problem I don't believe. I think this is why cash is being phased out in many ways... You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to see it. They want to track where money goes with tech, to see what they should be getting and levels of evasion, and people who do everything in cash in a substantial amount will be looked on suspiciously, as it gets more and more rare. The recent pandemic has made contactless payments the norm, too.

But for now, OP should be able to withdraw his cash and let the builder worry about the legalities of his business operation, including the 'promotional discounts' he gives out.

TaurenDruid

So you're avoiding having to pay VAT, the builder friend is avoiding income tax - this is why your friend is asking for cash, don't cod us you don't know that! - and presumably yer man is also working away despite the coronavirus restrictions... jebus, who'd be an honest trader these days...

User1998

Jim2007 wrote: »

Will your friend issue you with a VAT invoice and related documents for the transactions? The discount is substantial in relation to the overall amount and it could be argued that that should have put you on notice that something was up. But if you have valid supporting documentation and it was at 'mates' rates, I doubt there is much chance of you finding yourself in a tricky situation.

Come on, argued where? In court? Nothing is ever going to come of this. Little bit of scare mongering going on there tbh. Obviously the friend is not going to issue him a VAT invoice

Pinoy adventure

Thomasirl123 wrote: »

It's up to the builder to pay the tax, not you.

That's assuming tax was paid on the cash in the first place,otherwise there might be a paddy wagon waiting outside the branch if he gives them
Notice of withdrawning a large amount of cash

namloc1980

User1998 wrote: »

Come on, argued where? In court? Nothing is ever going to come of this. Little bit of scare mongering going on there tbh. Obviously the friend is not going to issue him a VAT invoice

Nothing is likely to come of it as you say, but tax evasion is tax evasion at the end of the day. The op appears to know the reason why he's getting a mate's rate i.e. no vat will be paid.

Smee_Again

Pinoy adventure wrote: »

That's assuming tax was paid on the cash in the first place,otherwise there might be a paddy wagon waiting outside the branch if he gives them
Notice of withdrawning a large amount of cash

Funny story. When I worked in banking some lad had €50K transferred into his account from Germany and then tried to withdraw it all as cash.

We asked the source of the funds and he said he won it in a raffle, long story short our AML department declined the withdrawal and inform the organised crime agency who liaised with the police who arrested him when the withdrawal was finally approved.

Turns out it was legit, he’d won a Porsche in an airport and had sold it and that was the source of the funds. We never did find out why he wanted it in cash though.

Pinoy adventure

Smee_Again wrote: »

Funny story. When I worked in banking some lad had €50K transferred into his account from Germany and then tried to withdraw it all as cash.

We asked the source of the funds and he said he won it in a raffle, long story short our AML department declined the withdrawal and inform the organised crime agency who liaised with the police who arrested him when the withdrawal was finally approved.

Turns out it was legit, he’d won a Porsche in an airport and had sold it and that was the source of the funds. We never did find out why he wanted it in cash though.

What did the AML department need too ok the transaction ?

km991148

Smee_Again wrote: »

Turns out it was legit, he’d won a Porsche in an airport and had sold it and that was the source of the funds. We never did find out why he wanted it in cash though.

Buy more tickets in the next raffle of course!!

Jim2007

User1998 wrote: »

Come on, argued where? In court? Nothing is ever going to come of this. Little bit of scare mongering going on there tbh. Obviously the friend is not going to issue him a VAT invoice

Except you have no way of knowing what the actual out come is going to be. I expect nothing will happened, but I can't say for certain and accordingly I'm not tell them they are in the clear, when I don't know.

Jim2007

Pinoy adventure wrote: »

What did the AML department need too ok the transaction ?

Because it is the classic money laundering transaction - a large sum of money transferred into account followed with a request for cash. Usually the last step in laundering.

KaneToad

Ronnie Calm Sociology wrote: »

I'm just paying for a building job in cash. I hope that's not illegal! Suppose I'm a bit worried it may be seen as tax evasion as I'm avoiding paying VAT

Its called fraud. It is illegal. Penalties vary. You are defrauding the exchequer. Hopefully you're not successful. I'd have no qualms about reporting your builder if I knew your identity. I'm sure others may feel the same.

No doubt there will be a slew of posts now telling me to get a life, mind my own business etc..

killbillvol2

Ramasun wrote: »

I've done this before and tried asking my local branch to arrange in advance for large denomination notes for a withdrawal less than 10k. I suppose it depends on the staff you're dealing with but I was left feeling like I was under suspicion.

In the end I went to three different branches to withdraw the cash in the denominations I wanted.

Just to add to the suspicion?

Pinoy adventure

Jim2007 wrote: »

Because it is the classic money laundering transaction - a large sum of money transferred into account followed with a request for cash. Usually the last step in laundering.

I know.
But there is certain requirements needed
Too ok the transaction so the poster should know if s/he had any dealing with the said transaction.
Known in the industry as money mules

relax carry on

Ronnie Calm Sociology wrote: »

We have been offered the option of cash. We are weighing it up and I dont want to do anything illegal, therefore I'm asking the questions. The builder is a VAT registered business but is a friend so offered to do the job for cash. Would be saving us 5k. It's a hell of a lot of money to us. I just cant seem to find a definitive answer on whether this is legal or not.

It's quite simple. You have been given an option to have work done legally which should come invoiced and offer protection for you and the builder should anything go wrong. You have been given an option of cash which presumably comes with no invoice or protection for anything that goes wrong. You know the reason for this discount is so your you can avoid being charged VAT by a VAT registered business. In doing so you are facilitating tax evasion by the builder. It's literally your choice what to do. You are grown up, make your decision and be comfortable with whatever the consequences are.

TaurenDruid

km991148 wrote: »

You aren't avoiding paying vat. Potentially your builder friend is.

No, they absolutely are. The builder should be charging X amount, plus VAT. Paying cash for less is possible only because the OP is avoiding paying the VAT, and the builder is avoiding the income tax.

wdmfapq4zs83hv

Thanks for all the replies. Looks like it's a bit of a grey area and I'm not one to take a risk to be honest so I think we will take the hit and do this " on the books". If these restrictions ever lift and we can finally get building of course! Appreciate the replies.

paddy19

Relax Carry On:
"which should come invoiced and offer protection for you and the builder should anything go wrong."

What protection are you going to have by getting a VAT invoice? Are you going to sue your builder and make the lawyers rich?

AFAIK there is no onus on the consumer to get a VAT invoice.

In any event how does the consumer know the builder passed on the VAT to the Revenue.

You pay your tax, the builder pays his tax.

The Continental Op

Ronnie Calm Sociology wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies. Looks like it's a bit of a grey area and I'm not one to take a risk to be honest so I think we will take the hit and do this " on the books". If these restrictions ever lift and we can finally get building of course! Appreciate the replies.

If its going to take that long take the money out a regular small amount every week and "save up" the cash.

Smee_Again

Pinoy adventure wrote: »

What did the AML department need too ok the transaction ?

Because it was suspicious.

JustAThought

I’d be more worried about being set on, Nd the money taken, on my way to the meeting as the guy sat waiting for me.

If I hd to give 17k away and the guy was insisting in cash, I’d ve making sure it was done IN the bank where there are CCTV cameras for the transaction and a degree of safety for the OP.

OP - can you not arrange several smaller bank transfers? I used know the figure that could go into an account with investigations being triggered but havn’t kept up to date - it USED by either 6k or 8k.

The govt. was all over the news a while back saying they were going to track and investigate people suspected of holding or hiding suspected ‘drug’ money or money that was the source of crime. Might be worth a google.

I know the guy in front of me in the bank last week seemed to just have turned up from the UK and took out 10k and they didn’t bat an eyelid - he didn’t know his bank account details and they made him show ID - they refused an Irish PPS card as the photo didn’t look like him but mostly because it disn’t have a date of birth on it - but OK’d his UK driving license. I felt like following him up the road with a hard luck story!!

If your ‘builder’ wants 17k this week and 17k next week tbh it’s pretty close together. Is the work completed & signed off for quality? It’d be hrd to have any comeback if you spot a problem or compliance issue later if you have no paper trail or invoice/ receipt. Or indeed, to prove in a court that you ever paid him. He of course can point to the work and show he did his end of the contract.

killbillvol2

Pinoy adventure wrote: »

I know.
But there is certain requirements needed
Too ok the transaction so the poster should know if s/he had any dealing with the said transaction.
Known in the industry as money mules

Wtf are you talking about?

beachhead

Ronnie Calm Sociology wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. I guess I'm wondering what the criteria is for the bank flagging this to revenue? We dont usually withdraw large amounts of cash.

It's not relevant in your case but customs require a declaration if you take more than e10,000 out of the country.I imagine the bank will ask why if over that amount.I'd worry about telling them I was paying someone in cash.Buying a cash is more common.Maybe they don't give a s....e

Jim2007

paddy19 wrote: »

What protection are you going to have by getting a VAT invoice? Are you going to sue your builder and make the lawyers rich?

AFAIK there is no onus on the consumer to get a VAT invoice.

In any event how does the consumer know the builder passed on the VAT to the Revenue.

You are missing the point! If the OP ever finds himself being interviewed by the Revenue’s investigations branch, a VAT invoice would be his only defense. That is the protection being spoken off.

I’m always amazed at how many amateurs with a cunning plan are willing to take on the professionals, people with probably 20 years experience and the tools and techniques specifically designed to catch them....

OP, you've to give notice of any amount of 5k or larger. You can just pop in and take out €4,999 if you like, but once you hit 5k it needs to be by request in advance (I'm with BOI and you can do it online, my local CU will do it over the phone).

You have to give a reason why you want the money. Same as if you lodge it, you may be asked where it came from. It won't matter what the reason is. Revenue get notified of large amounts (€10k or greater, I believe) being lodged/withdrawn in cash, but unless you're well known to the Gardai, you'll likely never hear about it again.

You'll pay the builder and he'll give you a receipt. Doesn't matter a jot whether it's a "VAT" receipt or not, as you're Joe Soap, not a commercial customer, so the VAT doesn't matter to you (unless you're trying to claim it back somewhere along the way). If the builder decides to give Revenue the finger and pocket the cash, that's his choice, not yours, and you're not responsible for his tax affairs.


What I would say to you is this: it's a lot of cash. I remember a story before of a chap that bought a car off a dealer in cash. 12k I think it was. Dealer was closing up for the evening when he was held up and the money taken from him. Cash is practically untraceable, so make sure you get a written receipt of having handed the money over, and make sure you don't tell the builder (or anyone with him) when you're planning to go and withdraw the money. This all sounds very over the top, I realise, but it's just for your own sake.


I did an extension onto my house a few years ago. It was cash all the way. Never had an issue (although my builder lived in the same area as me, and I trusted him). I never paid in massive amounts like you are though. I paid weekly, in hundreds of euro at a time - not thousands.

km991148

Jim2007 wrote: »

You are missing the point! If the OP ever finds himself being interviewed by the Revenue’s investigations branch, a VAT invoice would be his only defense. That is the protection being spoken off.

I’m always amazed at how many amateurs with a cunning plan are willing to take on the professionals, people with probably 20 years experience and the tools and techniques specifically designed to catch them....

Lack of invoice on it's own might not be enough in of itself (but having one would definitely help..), but then they check the reason you gave (I need 17k for a "car").. and suddenly you are looking a little bit more like fitting the profile of someone worth talking to.

Depending on what other metrics they have in you you might also be dragged into the audit net (good luck if you are self employed!).

It's a complete pain, but probably not going to happen. Probably.