Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

Lsdrugbyfan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118535841#Comment_118535841

I think the issue will be financial, leinster need to cut the wage bill and 28 year olds are more expensive than 23 year olds.

Exclamation Marc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118535841#Comment_118535841

I think its somewhat harder now in any event for younger players (or even second/third line players) to come through. Less games on the calendar. No games during international fixtures leaving spaces open. I don't know if that means that the Adam Byrne's or the wingers coming through behind him suffer but one of them will have materially less opportunity to impress. It's likely one of the reasons Jack Dunne is off.

Lsdrugbyfan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536011#Comment_118536011

Jack Dunne is off because he wasn't offered a contract.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118535841#Comment_118535841

That's specifically why I said immunotherapy sure about whether Byrne has hit his ceiling or not after the injury. ROL is someone who has hit his ceiling and he's OK. They're going to give him Moore gametime but they know exactly what he'll do. He'll be OK but you're not going to be confident with him in your champions cup team and he'll only be in the team through injury.

He's not challenging the guys ahead of him and he likely never will. There are other players who might well challenge for the starting jersey and its worth more to investn in them to see if they can be top players over ROL who is OK but only OK.

I'm using ROL for illustrative purposes here as he's a player who is established and not any kind of prospect. I have nothing personal against him.

Exclamation Marc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536029#Comment_118536029

Of course. But the reason he wasn't likely derives somewhat from that point. Less gametime out there and more internationals available for URC games means that those way down the pecking order arent as valuable as before.

Dubinusa

So, what will the squad look like next year? I suppose it will be smaller. With less matches, less opportunities. Leinster's strength over the last 6 years has been the ability to absorb the loss of international players during the international windows and still be a top level side. At times, the back up players have been brilliant and the standards didn't drop.

There are older players who should not be offered contracts. The contract status for players at Leinster appears to be top secret! They do not announce contracts until late in the season. We don't know the length of the contracts.

Sean Cronin will probably retire. He doesn't feature and there's young hookers in the academy. Toner is a shadow of his old self. I would be amazed if he were offered a contract. Healy is a tough one. He still makes the national team and is still capable of playing at a high level. A 1 year deal? Ruddock, while being brilliant, imo, is getting older and there's blindsides in the academy. Ruddock should get a contract. Deegan too! He's still fairly young and I think could have a very high ceiling. One of our opensides will probably leave. There's too much talent and few minutes. I think Penny will most likely go.

Adam Byrne and ROL are good players. Rol is versatile and that may be his lifeline. Byrne could be retained, if D Kearney is let go. Kearney has a history of injury, like Byrne is older and won't be improving.

I think Dooley will leave. Ed Byrne also. Milne is coming back from injury and has a higher ceiling, imo. It will be a different squad for next year. There will also be promotion from the academy, Osborne and perhaps Soroka. I think we could lose 5 to 10 players.

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536262#Comment_118536262

Jesus Dub half your posts are you listing players you think will leave. The reality is very few of the players that everyone says every year will leave actually do. The less games thing is mentioned a lot lately and I think it’s exaggerated a bit, people talk like it’s half the number of games available. A few will leave/finish up as normal but I doubt any big shocks are likely to come.

PMC83

Actually ROG covered a topic similar to whats we've been been discussing, on OTB this Monday. Seemingly Crusaders are in a similar enough situation to Leinster with a large squad size. He says they have a few players that are actually happy to to just play 4/5 games a season because they know how valued they are and what they bring to those games and the set up at large. He also mentions that a few of these players know there will most likely be a trophy and medal at the end of the season, and they just feel its worth hanging around for, ever if not playing much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miCju_RY-r0&t=1106s

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536441#Comment_118536441

I heard the podcast version. But leinster is in a position where they have to cut the player budget. So maybe those established fringe players will be happy to take a significant pay cut. But I suspect Leinster will be keen to cut a few of those players to make financial space and gametime for younger players who they think can develop. It seems Dunne was one of those players who wasn't offered a contract (just read that above so I don't know if it's true).

Well just have to see what happens next.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118535614#Comment_118535614

What I know is you have a very condescending and sneering attitude. What I also know is ROL is a senior member of the squad, who has played 88 times for Leinster. Including in Champions Cup games. He has been fairly consistently picked through out his time. Although he won’t be in our knockout team. We have a hell of a lot of games that aren’t knockout.

This is just the usual shiny new toy attitude that prevails in this country. Yes we need to get gametime for the younger players coming through. We also need to maintain a core squad of senior players too.

If fit, you can be pretty much guaranteed they would be selecting ROL ahead of TOB, Osborne or any of the other young lads for a European game. He may not be a future Irish prospect but he certainly is a very important squad player to have. We need them both.

Dubinusa

I was reading ROG topic on the urc! He's right in some respects. But the premiership is not exactly brimming with top class sides, nor the top 14.

I think the 4 provinces are the urc representation in the Heineken cup? That's dismal! From Leinster's perspective, the lack of quality opposition is why they struggle with teams like Sarries, LA Rochelle etc.

It's probably best to try a super league. Top 4 from each league? All the competitions have weak sides that are just fodder.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118535358#Comment_118535358

Do you not see the inherent contradiction in that? We won’t chase silverware with young players. Unless they’re exceptional, the likes of Kelleher, Doris and Sheehan for example. Who aren’t going to be blocked by anyone anyway. To have depth in every position, you need senior players in your squad who aren’t first choice but can step in when needed at a high level.

Lsdrugbyfan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536771#Comment_118536771

Unless ROL and Byrne are willing to take a paycuts to play for Leinster, I don't see leinster having the budgetary space to carry two squad players who dont play very often.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536862#Comment_118536862

There’s a balance to be struck tho between needing senior players, balancing the books and giving the young (cheaper) options a chance.

Look at the guys Munster let go last season; Sweetnam, Marshall, JJ, Cronin and guys like Holland, O’Donnell and CJ retiring.

That’s probably the equivalent of guys like Adam Byrne, ROL and Tracy.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536771#Comment_118536771

Ah yeah but you said this, which is either feigning misunderstanding of the situation or its genuine misunderstanding the situation.

What are we backing youth for then? To dump them in their mid 20’s, so we can give the next generation their game time.

Completely missing the point that the goal is to find the very best of the next generation so they can develop and add them to the first team squad. That's why nobody is suggesting dumping the top players who have come through like the players I mentiomed in the post above.

Did you genuinely miss the point of producing new players?

Exclamation Marc

In an odd story, there are reports that the rescheduled Munster v Leinster game may not take place in Thomond due to the impact on the pitch from Ed Sheeran playing there two weeks prior.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118537302#Comment_118537302

Do you genuinely miss the point of needing a squad? We used 54 players last year. Have already used 45 this year. Players like ROL and Tracey form a hugely important part of that squad. We need to produce good solid professionals too. Who can slot in and play games without having a huge drop in experience. We are not going to hold on to top quality players like Doris, Kelleher or Sheehan if they’re only getting 5-10 starts a season and not playing international. Every squad needs the middle ground too.

Adam Byrne is in a different category though.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536961#Comment_118536961

We are likely going to lose some players this year. I would imagine Dave won’t be getting another contract or Toner. I could see Penney leaving too along with the likes of Turner and Hawkshaw. The fact ROL was an unused sub last week, suggests to me he’s very much still in the plans.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118537247#Comment_118537247

Yeah but the balance isn’t letting go the likes of Tracey or ROL. They would be the equivalent of Players like JOD at Munster. Or possibly a little below that as JOD gets more starts but still isn’t a guaranteed spot in your best team. They are still important back up players in case of injury.

Lsdrugbyfan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118538733#Comment_118538733

Daves not out of contract.

Of the senior players: Toner/Cronin are gone, 1 of of Dooley/Byrne, Dunne, COB, ROL or A Byrne. Possibly Hawkshaw.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118538792#Comment_118538792

I would imagine COB will be gone, his injury profile is just too poor. Adam Byrne is probably gone for the same reason. I can’t see ROL or Tracy going unless they get a better offer.

Lsdrugbyfan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118538911#Comment_118538911

Tracy not out of contract.

ROL might depends if he is happy to take a paycut at leinster or not.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118538729#Comment_118538729

Yes. I get all that. You haven't said whether you get the absurdity of the part I quoted from your post?

What are we backing youth for then? To dump them in their mid 20’s, so we can give the next generation their game time.

Nobody is suggesting dumping the youth when they hit their mid 20s. Likewise nobody would suggest leinsyer carry all the journeymen who are only OK and taking up gametime. You Saif you get that players won't stay I'd they're only getting 5 or 6 games a year and leinster already use more player than most teams meaning their fringe and young players are getting less gametime than other clubs.

No harmin removing the dead wood to allow for new growth (harsh analogy on ROL, but the point is understood)

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118538740#Comment_118538740

It’s more than a little below tho, no?

I’d wager JOD has started more Europeans games than not over the last number of seasons. And at a mimimum is in the 23. You can’t say the same for Tracy and ROL.

Tracy would be more akin to O’Byrne; down the pecking order, and a player I expect to leave at the end of the season with the younger (and presumably cheaper) Barron getting selected ahead of him.

Podge_irl

Having the likes of Adam Byrne and ROL in the squad is a luxury, not a necessity and if there are indeed efforts to trim the squad for financial or other reasons then those are kind of players we should expect to see leaving.

starkid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536029#Comment_118536029

its the same thing. he couldn't get enough games to showcase his talent ergo he doesn't get a deal.

These players discussed need to leave for their own sake. adam byrne maybe for loyalty sake hung about. but for a kid who made his debut at 18 and done fairly well he shouldn't be hanging about. ROL had 2 very good seasons.

Irish rugby can't afford to have a load of talent as a luxury.

using 45 players isn't a good thing for Irish rugby in a sense.not when you have weaker players playing in other teams.

Its only going to get worse for Irish rugby. Hawkshaw leaving...ah sure who cares. the lad is a real talent. look at berti-newman.

in a few years if the conveyor belt keeps churning we'll need to reassess things.

FrannoFan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118538792#Comment_118538792

Dooley is off to quins

Lsdrugbyfan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539705#Comment_118539705

hardly a surprise, always rated him ahead of Byrne but coaches saw it differently. Hope it goes well for him.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539048#Comment_118539048

Not fully familiar with the pecking order but is O’Byrne third choice for Munster?

ROL has been involved in a good few European match days squads for Leinster to my memory. He’s not a starter unless we have a serious amount of injuries though.

What would be the first choice backrow at Munster with a fully fit squad? POM, Coombes & Beirne probably. Maybe JOD would be the bench cover then? Though with Kendelan and Hodnett coming through, how long will that remain the case?

Currently JOD is in the European match day squads. As last week proved, ROL is just a little outside that and could very easily end up inside the 23.

Dumping players at 28 because they’re never going to be starting internationals isn’t balance.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539534#Comment_118539534

its the same thing. he couldn't get enough games to showcase his talent ergo he doesn't get a deal.

Or he had three years to showcase his talent for the coaches and failed to do so. So therefore didn’t get games. You seem to be under the illusion that only games count. Probably because that’s all you see.