Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204459#Comment_119204459

They did it for 10 minutes at the end of the game though. It wasn’t like they had been doing that through out. Fair play to them, for doing it error free and not giving Leinster an out but it wasn’t like they were capable of doing that all day. Mostly the errors that let them into the game were unforced. The ball hitting JOB. Keenan touching the ball. Sexton and Keenan contriving to completely **** up what should have been an easy exit.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119203454#Comment_119203454

It depends, doesn't it? If we were to lose a final or sf by a wide margin and not matching up well physically, then I would say that our lads aren't up to big physical tilts!

But, if we lose by a point or 2 and have made the same mistakes, then it's on the players! The players that make these errors are responsible.

We could also have an off day and **** the bed. It's important to remember that the league team doesn't equate to the Euro team. There's some of our "stars", that are not that good!

Neil3030

It's possible for a team to create an environment that forces their opposition into poor decisions.

Discuss.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204569#Comment_119204569

It's possible! Fcukin sure it is!

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204583#Comment_119204583

Which is why I dislike the "we weren't outmuscled, we just made poor decisions" line. Bulls outplayed Leinster on D and in set-piece. They were more clinical with their opportunities in the 22. It's how we (Ireland) have beaten the All Blacks in the past, and I can't imagine we'd be too thrilled if their appraisal was, "we (NZ) just made made bad decisions". I think some credit should be given where it's due.

Interested Observer

I think if Sexton had have kicked that **** ball away Leinster would have won.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204842#Comment_119204842

Who's to say La Rochelle wouldn't have mauled from the ensuing lineout, won a penalty, kicked to the corner, and scored off another maul anyway?

Itxa

Leinster need a big man in the row and an out half. 50% of that is done although it remains to be seen if Jenkins is any good. Are there any world class out halves we can go to the market for? Or even ones that can do a job like Holwell or Spooner? To be slavishly tied to our own players will limit us at the top end of competitions.

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204854#Comment_119204854

Who’s to say Leinster wouldn’t have stolen the lineout ran the length of the pitch and scored a wonder try?

pickarooney

Leinster weren't even confident enough to win their own lineouts on the opposition 5m line, there's not a chance they would have contested a lineout given the power of the LR maul.

Itxa

Looking at the lineout steals in the final ten mins again, two were on Molony one was Ryan. I don’t think it was system failure or the fault of the jumpers or thrower but simply fantastic reading and determination from the Bulls to get up and steal. As to what would or should have happened it’s hypotheticals.

Itxa

Also having quick ruck ball relies on lightning fast units hitting rucks in numbers. Flooding the backline with carriers will get you in trouble. You have to also do the hard yards and win the tight exchanges as the game progresses. Parity isn’t enough. That means holding out teams when they get in our 22 and not folding on switches or mauls. The straight forward battering in the League meant we were unwise to the slights the Bulls brought in the 22.

AdamD

Alternatively, if our scrum wasn't a shambles we win that final quite handily.

molloyjh

I wouldn’t say that LAR even did win the physical battle in the last 10. It was their technique more than their physicality that prevented Leinster from getting the ball. They stuck close to the sides of the rucks and latched players on (often more than 1 which btw is illegal) in such a way as to prevent Leinster from being able to poach as it allowed them to effectively seal off after each carry. This technique prevented the possibility of a turnover. The fact that they stuck close to the ruck and were happy to make little to no yardage on each carry helped too. They were looking to rumble forward slowly. Retain the ball and just keep going, making sure not to knock the ball on or take any risks with possession.

If they really won the physical battle then it wouldn’t have taken them so long to get that final try. They ground that try out, they didn’t beat us up for it.

Also, keeping us to no try was clearly a tactic. Penalty after penalty in the 22 allowed them to do that and Barnes not addressing it helped no end. In retrospect we could have gone down the line at some stage, but at the time the calls to go for the post were right each time. It got us out to an 8 point lead which we should have been able to see out. Mistakes from us kept LAR in the game when they shouldn’t have been, despite all the pressure they put on us and the cynicism they showed.

awec

Gordon D'Arcy must have been reading my posts because he's said similar to me in his IT article today, though his view is overall more pessimistic on Leinster and where they are.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2022/06/15/leinster-may-need-to-look-further-afield-to-find-the-missing-link-to-future-success/

It's paywalled, but the gist is:

• Leinster are a couple of players short. He thinks they were a player short a year or so ago, but will need more now.
• He feels recent recruitment hasn't properly addressed problematic areas. Leinster are missing a unit in the pack who will "carry other players over the gainline with them".
• Leinster are vulnerable to physical teams. Stop the fast ruck ball and the team struggles to get going as there is a lack of creative players who can make something out of nothing (and a lack of the previously mentioned big player).
• The "small margins" / "we were just unfortunate" argument is people being overly optimistic as there is a clear trend (5 consecutive knockout matches) of being beaten by teams with similar physical make-ups
• Lowe was a big miss, and he felt those wearing 9-13 didn't really know what to do to get around the Bulls defence, with the exception of Henshaw. Lack of cutting edge in these players.
• There is an insinuation that Leinster are too focused on getting as many home-grown players into their team as they can, and that outside talent is needed for winning trophies.

AbusesToilets

Sexton kicks that conversion, we win the match. Then we're talking about the team's ability to overcome massive pressure and finding a way to win.

If we had won the final, we'd be praising our amazing defense, and la Rochelle would be getting criticized for their indiscipline.

Largely empty narratives in that piece. Teams under pressure struggle, that's the nature of elite sport. Leinsters biggest deficiency has been decision making. Ringtone blowing the overlap vs Saracens, the Sexton/ Keenan/ JGP sequence, not kicking for the corner in the recent final.

RichieRich_89

Sign NIQs is Darcy's go-to argument. He seems to think players from NZ and some other countries can do things that Irish players just can't. You obviously have to take his opinions on board. He's been around setups and experienced these things. There could be something in what he says, but I have to say the way he communicates it isn't very convincing, to me at least. I remember when Aki first came into the Irish side in his article he was praising him for throwing a good pass, saying no Irish player would have been able to pull it off.

I suppose the counter-argument to Darcy's point of view would be this sort of thing from Donnacha Ryan:

“Coaches in general in Ireland, from my experience, don’t see the potential in young guys because we probably don’t develop as fast as guys in other nations do. That is a big thing for me, you have got to see what can be as opposed to seeing what isn’t, to give lads the tools to get better because at the end of the day if they have the right attitude you can teach them the skills and the knowledge – but the attitude is the big thing for me.”

Personally, I don't see why Joe McCarthy can't be that Hines/Thorn type player for Leinster.

Itxa

McCarthy isn’t in your face confrontational despite being involved in handbags against Bulls he comes across as contained and non confrontational.

The problem isn’t as Donncha advises a skills deficit but rather an athleticism deficit. We need a ten who can spot a gap and go - lanky tens generally don’t have that

It’s also attitude and having the confidence to make a break from 10 and back yourself. Frawley may have that but it would be advisable to get in someone so we have two good standard outhalves over the coming seasons.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119205708#Comment_119205708

The second last point is addressable. Or, at least, attempts can be made to improve things with personnel changes. They could explore Frawley or Harry Byrne at standoff instead of Ross Byrne. And 12. Henshaw, 13. Osborne or 12. Frawley/Ngatai, 13. Henshaw would probably keep defences guessing more.

Dont Be at It

Ridiculous article by D'Arcy. Actually claiming the fact that leinster have 22 players involved with Ireland is almost a disadvantage to them 😅. Sure the Irish contingent only play a handful of URC games throughout the season with them.

If this Leinster team with all its resources need a marquee foreigner then God help the rest of the provinces. They bottled the final with La Rochelle, that's what it comes down to.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119206003#Comment_119206003

I've warmed to Darcy as an analyst slightly, but I remember his ridiculous assessment when it changed to being the Champions Cup: https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/international-rugby/almost-impossible-for-irish-to-compete-in-europe-gordon-darcys-worrying-assessment-ahead-of-new-season-35047079.html

He argued that it would be almost impossible for Irish teams to get out of their pool - despite the fact that three second place teams qualified, rather than two. Turned out to be nonsense, of course, with Leinster and Munster making the semis in 2016/2017.

Itxa

Funnily enough I always thought Ringrose could be a good ten. Has a good kicking game but isn’t fast enough for outside breaks at 13. He might be able to step props at ten if given the chance there. The only problem is there would be uproar if the golden child was moved position.

Didnt he play ten at schools. Or was that 15?

Dont Be at It

Yeah, I should add that his articles are generally very good, just thought this train of thought is crazy.

Finals are generally very tight affairs, no matter how much of a favourite you're perceived to be. Not trying to stir the pot here as I support all the provinces in Europe and was on the edge of my seat when leinster were defending the line at the death, but when it came to the fine margins Leinster bottled it.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119206085#Comment_119206085

9.

He doesn't have the understanding of how to time/delay passes to unlock a set defence from what I've seen. It wouldn't be difficult to defend against him and the players he's passing to if he was at 10.

Dubinusa

It's all just opinions! Everyone has them! It's been flogged to death and it's going around again! D'Arcy is like Jackman etc. It's 2 matches lost by a couple of points! They bottled the Euro! They were outplayed last week! A big gnarly 2nd row? It's ludicrous to think that Leinster need to bring in players when they turn out quality players every year.

Porter struggled, therefore the scrum struggle! Sexton and Keenan fucked up a clearance. Our line out was poor. Leinster were in these games! It's not like they were starved of possession! To jump the gun and fault the amount of internationals, is bizarre. Does it hurt Leinster? Why are we not focusing on the impacts of Porter switching to lh, Healy is declining, Luke had a tough year and whoever manages the scrum, didn't do a good enough job?

Monday morning qb'ing.

Must love hardship

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119205708#Comment_119205708

That's why we need a back line of 11, Lowe 12. Frawley, 13 Henshaw , 14 Ringrose, 15 Keenan with Larmour coming on with 20 left. (Not 3 minutes like Frawley got from the 23 Jersey v Bulls and LOR.

Frawley gives us that second playmaker that we need at 12.

Former Former Former

Wouldn't disagree with D'Arcy that we could use a big signing. I'm sure Leo would agree too.

However, so long as every position from 1 to 15 is occupied by a player with a genuine shot at being an Ireland international, as is currently the case, we won't be allowed to sign any foreigner good enough. We'll have to make do with the Alaaalatoa's and Jenkinses of the world.

Itxa

Yes but as a stopgap to fill a gaping hole like we have at 10 can we not get in someone who is good enough to close out a final but won’t be used to stymie the progress of up and coming players in that position.

Obviously Sexton is world class and he’s about the only one I would say that about besides Furlong, can we not plug a hole where we need one to be?

If the above post is a dig as Nucifora please explain your position. Are you for or against someone coming in? We won’t be allowed? We are allowed as much as we can reasonably explain our shortcomings in terms of converting finals into trophies.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119207611#Comment_119207611

No.

Harry Byrne is in the Ireland squad now. Why would the Union allow the signing of a player who would play instead of him?

Itxa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119207637#Comment_119207637

He hasn’t demonstrated match winning and closing game management. Are we to go trophyless to accommodate a potential placeholder?