Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

aloooof

And the flip side of that argument is that, with the restructions on NIQ's, Leinster can't as readily import, say, a Pacific Island monster as the other teams. (And genetically, we don't produce many guys like that).

Look at the lineups from the 2021 final; guys like Vito, Skelton, Kaino, the Arnold brothers, Elstadt, Charlie Faumuina and Tekori all featured. That's before I've even mentioned backs like Botia, Kolbe, Lleyds, Rhule, West, TKB.

And the influence of a guy coming from outside is a clear benefit, but that's not isolated to guys from successful test teams. Nacewa being an obvious example. And John Langford often being cited as a guy who had a huge influence on changing the Munster culture. Other teams can enjoy that benefit more than Leinster.

Not to mind the times they lost to Saracens, who had assembled a squad that had breached the domestic salary cap.

And other teams can more readily benefit from signings who are then no longer considered for international duty, like European players of the year Steffon Armitage and Nick Abendanon.

The long and short of it is there are myriad factors at play, and it's not at all obvious to me that Leinster enjoy such an advantage over other teams that makes the margins anything other than fine, or that indicates they're obviously underperforming.

If Leinster don't concede a 79th minute try in May, I'm not even sure we're having this conversation. The negativity from a cohort of Leinster fans absolutely baffles me at times.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119662206#Comment_119662206

It's hard not to be negative about losing a final you were 16-point favourites for. Is that unbackable? I don't bet, but that's almost an unheard of margin to be favourites by in a major final.

It seemed to me there wasn't enough detail in Leinster's gameplan. They know how La Rochelle attack. Why not get a defender up in the passing channel out on the edges to intercept or stop that offload they like to look for. Their defensive spacing wasn't good from the start. La Rochelle were able to get outside them. Conversely, La Rochelle's defensive set-up completely disrupted Leinster's attack.

The home Saracens QF in 2020 was also a huge missed opportunity. Alex Goode at outhalf, and it was, what, 22-3 at half time? The whole period with Saracens absent was a golden opportunity that hasn't been taken advantage of. Imagine back in Smith's time if you took Toulouse or Clermont out of the reckoning for two seasons.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119662442#Comment_119662442

I absolutely get being negative about that final (and last season in general) but posters are being more broadly negative about Lancaster’s entire period.

And that QF against Saracens was in large part decided by first half scrum issues. Saracens front row had 3 guys who featured in the RWC final a few months previous. It can happen against that calibre of opposition.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119661905#Comment_119661905

You’re here making the point though that Leinster players coming back from Ireland to play together with Leinster after winning a series in NZ is a factor. So on that basis, would poor performances in 2019 and 2020 then not have a negative impact on Leinster when those players come back? The Irish team only really became this top team that you are talking about in the last 12 months. It hadn’t been that since Leinster last won the HEC.

We should have won the HEC in May. And it was purely down to our own failings that we didn’t. Had we won that then none of this would be being said. We’d have won more in the last 6 years than anyone else and been more consistent in that time than anyone else. But that an entire tenure swings on 1 game like that is more than a little bit unfair. People keep saying Leinster get knocked out in the same manner every year, but we didn’t lose the La Rochelle game because we were beaten up. We lost it because we lost our composure and let them back into the game when we shouldn’t. That isn’t on Lancaster. It’s on the players.

aloooof

Only 3 teams have reached the knockout stages every year since Lancaster arrived.

They are:

1. Leinster
2. Exeter who have only been past the QF once, the year they won it, and
3. Racing who haven’t won anything either in Europe or domestically in that time.

Lancaster is a huge part in that consistency. There’s a reason Leinster are favourites for both competitions this season.

Itxa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119662539#Comment_119662539

Where in the past few pages has anyone slighted Lancaster? You’re trying to position yourself to defend him when neither Ersatz, RichieRich or I have said anything negative about him. Please don’t create a new slant on the discussion when there was nothing negative there in the first place.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119662711#Comment_119662711

Nonsense. "Falling short when it matters / underperforming" is where all this started and is clearly a negative take on his time at Leinster. I'm not creating any new slant, simply pointing out the arguments against that stance.

Itxa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119662754#Comment_119662754

Perhaps the accusation is against Cullen or the other coaches we had here at the time. I don’t see why you’re trying to deflect this to being specifically against Lancaster, it’s not. If you look back on the last page you will see that Ersatz and I specifically congratulated him for his time here and what he brought to Leinster. Not one iota was critical of him. You’re creating a false picture of what was said and trying to change the slant of the discussion to you being a defender of Lancaster when nothing was said against him. Re read the posts

Itxa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119658467#Comment_119658467

For your reference

Itxa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119660147#Comment_119660147

For your reference. Last para is only place he mentions Lancaster and it’s extremely positive.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119662754#Comment_119662754

These lads are just being contrarian for the sake of it.

Leinster are the best team in Europe and have been for a couple of years, certainly since the demise of Saracens. Just waving that away and saying "sure look at the players we have" is a horrible attitude to have and to be honest, I don't think any of them really believe it.

Lancaster has been a huge part of that and is a massive loss, but someone as good as him is never going to remain as second in command for ever.

We owe him a huge debt of gratitude.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119662776#Comment_119662776

Moving the goalposts. You said “there was nothing negative there in the first place.”

There absolutely was. For your reference:

one european cup win in his time is an underachievement.

And 1 H Cup in 6 years is fairly underwhelming no matter how you spin it.

…points to Lancaster being a slightly overrated coach IMO.

1 European cup isn't a great record for Lancaster given the resources at his disposal

it's a fact that they've come up short in the same department in the competition time and again.

It’s not scathing, but it absolutely is negative.

Re-read the posts again, indeed.

Dubinusa

Lancaster to Racing will have an impact.... on Racing. I believe Racing will be a better franchise and a tougher nut to Crack. Lancaster is one part of the Leinster system. Leo is part of that system! As was Felipe, Leamy etc.

Leinster have fallen short in Europe. But, they've been consistently a top 3 team! Perhaps, last year's failure falls on Sexton! JOB? A couple of poor mistakes and Leinster lost. La Rochelle deservedly beat Leinster 2 successive years and that's a fact. We were poor last season in the final. We were also poor v the Bulls. But, the teams that beat us are good outfits. On the day we were 2nd best, that comes down to Leinster as a whole.

Lancaster will be missed. He's pushed Leinster to the top of Euro rugby and has instilled a consistent top level team of quality through the internationals down to the academy lads. Consistency that is unrivaled. It's interesting to see the level that players like Frawley, Keenan and Connors have achieved during his tenure. Where will Leinster be when he's left?

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119662859#Comment_119662859

Ya, I think someone is a bit bored again tbh...

Itxa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119663060#Comment_119663060

Ok you’ve gone back 4 pages to fish those comments out before the game was played. It doesn’t discount them but he went on to say very complimentary things thereafter. He said he has left a good legacy in terms of structures and culture. I don’t see how that is overly negative.

And it’s an honest assessment on the return for Leinster during his tenure. Is that negative? It’s an accurate depiction on what we’ve achieved with a near full international team playing for our club. I would say it’s accurate and not negative.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119663320#Comment_119663320

“Where in the past few pages…”

*seems annoyed when I go back the last few pages* 😉

I’ll leave you to it, Itxa. I’ve spelled out my reasons why I think it’s inaccurate to say Lancaster has underachieved because Leinster are in a more advantageous position than their competitors.

Clegg

Frawley is injured and will miss the Emerging Ireland tour. That's brutal luck for him. He's a huge prospect but needs a run if fitness.

Soroka has been rules out with injury too.

Itxa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119663700#Comment_119663700

I’ll admit it I didn’t go back past page 3 initially but remain confident nothing overly negative was said so my point still stands. And as for the moral high ground reaching you can take it all you want but you’ve only proven Lancaster was mentioned but you haven’t shown how it was overly negative. Good night and good luck!

Sheep Shagger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119659181#Comment_119659181

Yep 2 massive screens and a couple of bars, has an old school rugby club feel to it much like you see in the likes of Exeter, Glasgow and Leicester. Its a good alternative to the pubs on European match days so definitely a step in the right direction.

ersatz

@aloooof Several people have said that 1 European cup is an underachievement, it’s arguably a fact given that the consensus is Leinster are the best team in Europe. Saracens did 3 in a row, etc. but I don’t believe anyone says it’s an underachievement BECAUSE they are relatively better off than their competitors. I’ve been careful to say you can argue it either way because I think both arguments are compelling and it’s a wash. It’s a misrepresentation and a bit paranoid to see people looking for ways to do down plucky Leinster, and it’s often other Leinster fans you seem to think are making ‘negative’ arguments. For good or bad Leinster are dominant enough that success in Europe is success or failure, nearly isn’t success, nor is should have, could have or might have. It’s sport, winners and losers when it totted up at the end of the season.

im a Leinster fan and I don’t believe they are the best team in Europe. They have been at times and have been in years where they haven’t won the comp but I would say they’ve consistently been top 2 or 3 almost every year for a decade which is unparalleled in the European game. I think they have limitations to their game and squad and I think they were tactically out thought by LAR last year and outmuscled by the saffers in the urc semi. Both things have happened on occasion during Lancs tenure though I believe he has been a phenomenal coach for them.

I make no apology for not being a fundamentalist about supporting Leinster, I’m not 7. I’d love to see the other provinces catch up and I’d love to see them good enough to challenge Leinster when Leinster are at the top of their game. When Munster dominated in Europe I was thrilled for them and hoped the others would catch up. Same way I was jumping up and down when Connacht won the league, if Leinster aren’t good enough, they aren’t good enough.

Dave_The_Sheep

Saracens didn't do three in a row, that was Toulon.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119664289#Comment_119664289

Several people have said that 1 European cup is an underachievement, it’s arguably a fact given that the consensus is Leinster are the best team in Europe.

But it's only fact if they were the best team in Europe for the entirety of his stint. They absolutely weren't when he joined. Which is a large part of my point.

The season before Lancaster joined, Leinster finished bottom of their pool, with 1 win from 6. I'm not sure there's been a result remotely as bad as the 6-33 home defeat to Wasps in the entirety of Lancaster's time?

I’ve been careful to say you can argue it either way because I think both arguments are compelling and it’s a wash. 

I agree. But this is exactly my point; if it's a wash, and Leinster don't enjoy a definite advantage, then logically, in what sense can you conclude they've underachieved?

I absolutely see where you're coming from for the entirely of you 2nd paragraph and I agree with an awful lot of it. But then you started the next paragraph as follows...

I make no apology for not being a fundamentalist about supporting Leinster, I’m not 7.

Arguing against Lancaster's results being "underwhelming / under achieving / being slightly overrated" doesn't make you a fundamentalist Leinster fan or, indeed, childish. At every point in the discussion, I've spelled out my reasons why, along with facts to back it up.

And it sounds like you'll be surprised to learn I'm a Munster fan.

In any case, I've said enough about this topic at this stage, and I think the contents of Cleggs post above are a good shout for moving onto another topc...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119658728#Comment_119658728

He's been really impressive. Virtually every carry he won the collision.

I also thought Baird had a solid and useful outing, and looked to be powerful when carrying as well.

I wouldn't read too much into the fact that Leinster scored 4 maul tries; any team is going to take a try that is handed to them on a plate. For some of those tries Leinster didn't even need to work hard or go through multiple phases, it was like an inevitability as soon as the ball went to the corner and the line out was won. It shows the inherent weakness of most of the URC, but to me there is still something naïve about fans calling for elaborate, backs-oriented tries when there are "open goals" lying in front of you.

It's possibly been mentioned already, but serious congratulations to Cian Healy on reaching the 250 for Leinster at the weekend. When you couple that with his 118 caps for Ireland it's a simply astonishing amount of rugby to play, especially considering how much time he missed with the neck injury that had him on the cusp of retirement.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119666470#Comment_119666470

Agreed - Where would he stand on the all-time list for total Pro-games played?

He must be there or thereabouts

arsebiscuits1

I will keenly be watching the injury update this week with a view to the Ulster game.

Based on our hope of getting Sexton back I assume we're going all out for this game.

I can't tell if Connors was injured coming off or we only ever wanted to give him a few minutes to ease him back in and that required taking him off again as he only came on after 5 minutes. He still did a 60 minute stint so lets see.

JOB is another one I'd be quite hopeful of getting passed fit as we're really thin on back 3 players if he is out as I'm not sure Keenan makes it back yet (although I'm still hopeful)

Ulster are a tactically sound team well capable of raining tricky kicks down on our back 3 with fierce competitors on their side also.

I reckon we will see a team akin to (assuming injury concerns are out this week):

Porter, Sheehan, Furlong

Ryan, Jenkins

Baird, Conan, VDF

JGP, Sexton

Henshaw, Ringrose

Kearney, MOR, Larmour

Kelleher, Healy, Ala'alatoa, Molony, Ruddock, Foley, Byrne, Ngatai

Ooof we're short on back 3 players. Frawley or Osborne could help us out there but neither available. I don't really rate MOR for a big game like this.

I would like to see Foley get a push for big minutes as there is definite class potential in there

arsebiscuits1

Ulster being down Baloucoune, Doak, McIlroy and Moore is helpful for us but they can still put out a backline of:

Cooney, Burns

McCloskey, Marshall

Stockdale, Lowry, Sexton

This is still a backline capable of causing most teams problems

realhorrorshow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119666499#Comment_119666499

I reckon they'll do pretty much anything to avoid selecting Max O'Reilly, he was dreadful against Zebre. Ngatai at full back maybe? Andrew Smith on the wing and Larmour to 15?

arsebiscuits1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119666498#Comment_119666498

I remember digging into this when Toner hit the caps record.

There's some lads out there that have player an astonishing amount of senior games. Dan Biggar has played 377 games between Ospreys, Northampton, Wales and Lions.

Donncha O'Callaghan played 429 games between Munster, Worcester, Ireland and Lions.

Peter Stringer player 451 games between Munster, a load of Prem teams and Ireland

Dan Cole has played 420 between England, Lions and a smattering of English teams

Jonny Wilkinson played 420 times between England, Lions, Newcastle and Toulon.

Alun Whn Jones has played 418 times so far for Ospreys, Wales and the lions

Healy is certainly high up the list. But I'd wager there is a good smattering of English players who wracked up more

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119666498#Comment_119666498

still 139 behind Sergio Parisse