Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

Lsdrugbyfan

interesting to hear Eoin Toolan say that a current irish international said to him that Jamie Osborne is the most talented young player he has seen come through the leinster system.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119733964#Comment_119733964

You're free to have your opinion on his qualities as a ref, but I'm obviously free to disagree with that. He's had way more than his share of controversies and patently bad decisions in recent years. It's nothing to do with just refereeing interpros, I just think he's a pedantic referee who has a tendency to get big calls wrong.

errlloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734132#Comment_119734132

This isn't a slight at you Richie, but I am always amazed at the people who care what number is on a backrowers back in the game of rugby. It came up a lot when CJ and Heaslip were both in contention to start for Ireland with CJ 6 and Heaslip 8 - and people would be on here bleating about how CJ was a more effective carrier from the base. And here it is again when the question is whether Connors should be an openside or blindside flanker based on defensive duties.

Not including resets, there are on average 13 scrums in a game. Half of those are defensive scrums. Of those scrums a reasonable portion end in penalties. a reasonable portion end in free kicks, a reasonable portion are turned over, and by the time all of that comes out there are probably no more than 3 scrums a game where the ball actually gets the backline. Of those, some are just kicked by the 10 straight away, some go to the blindside, and some become a decent attacking platform. Considering those that go to the blindside net against those that go the openside, we're talking about there maybe being one play, per game, at most where it might matter whether Connors is wearing 6 or 7.

The only part of the game where the number on your jersey matters as a backrow is the scrum (even at that it's only tradition not legislation, see South Africa), and the way the scrum is used these days makes in increasingly unimportant to the game. There are 100 defensive sets a game behind rucks, and maybe a net 1 behind scrums. Having the right players on the field is much more important than what number they're wearing.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734402#Comment_119734402

Yeah that's fine, Frank Murphy's quality as a ref is not a hill I'm going to die on, but there is absolutely no reason to suggest he is biased in favour or against any of the provinces and it's unfair to do so.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734451#Comment_119734451

He’s not biased, he’s just a fairly poor ref. I’m sure he does his best but like some players, his best is not good enough for top level. He is woefully inconsistent in his interpretations. Even within a game and he is overly focused on particular points. Ruining the flow of games. That feel for the game is something refs pick up over their career. When they learn to relax a little more. He never has and likely never will.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734451#Comment_119734451

I didn't specifically say he was biased; in fact I said my issue with him was that I view him as a poor referee first and foremost.

My point was it's inappropriate to have him in that situation, where he could face that accusation. In most legal / arbitration style scenarios the threshold for this isn't a need to show actual bias, more an appearance of bias. My point was it would be very reasonable for someone to assume he could have an affiliation or affection for a team where he spent 6 years of his career. It's the same principle as to why international referees are always from neutral countries.

ClanofLams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734006#Comment_119734006

That's quite a reaction. It's clearly not total bollocks - the six delegates being appointed from the other three provinces is well known. The IRFU did try to disband Connacht. These are facts. The subjective opinions about refereeing decisions are obviously open to debate.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734619#Comment_119734619

Well, yes, but it was posted in response to a discussion about refereeing.

It is absolute bollocks to claim there is a conspiracy of referees against Connacht, horseshit of the highest order and for a respected rugby journalist, not acceptable IMO.

Dubinusa

Who will be in the backrow this week? Assuming Deegan is not playing and Penny either. It could be Connors, Vdf and SOB.

I would think that's a light enough backrow. The injuries sustained last week are stretching the team.

I am not a fan of Frank Murphy. I think he's a poor ref. But, he's poor for everyone!

ClanofLams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734677#Comment_119734677

This post is ridiculous, I would suggest you re-read the article. He doesn't suggest there is a conspiracy - he's not suggesting that referees are told or decide collectively not to give Connacht decisions. He outlines a number of decisions, some of which were crucial or season defining that wrongly went against Connacht.

His point is about "smaller" teams often not getting decisions, - he even references Manchester United getting penalties at Old Trafford to make this clear. You can argue the merits of that claim too but he's clearly not suggesting a conspiracy against Connacht but rather a tendency amongst referees in general, across sports, to be more generous to 'bigger' teams.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734745#Comment_119734745

I would say there is a chance for either or both of Deegan and Penny to feature assuming they didn't pick up a knock on the tour. Penny didn't play Sunday against the Cheetahs, so I'd expect to see him in the 23.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734780#Comment_119734780

Doris is also back available isn't he?

Conan may also be available I think.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734809#Comment_119734809

Yeah, if I'd to bet I think we'll start with Doris, VdF, Conan, with potentially Connors or Penny on the bench.

Lsdrugbyfan

I'd be very surprised if any EI players are in the 23, they'll back players who have trained this week IMO.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734753#Comment_119734753

What about this bit.

In March 2014, Pat Lam expressed his grievances about some decisions by referee Neil Paterson after Connacht’s 32-30 defeat away by the Scarlets. In their next game they went to Belfast and were beaten 58-12 by Ulster on a night when Welsh referee Ian Davies did not award Connacht one solitary penalty in the entire game.

What other inference can you take other than Davies deliberately punished Connacht for Lam being a dick? Genuine question.

Or this bit?

One leading Connacht official often felt that for a younger, up-and-coming referee it would be particularly difficult to preside over a Connacht win against one of their provincial rivals. 

Madness.

It's a matter of perception. It seems that Connacht get a raw deal because they are in tight games more often. If you're twenty points clear of your opponents and you get a decision against you, you don't even remember it the following day.

But if that same decision is the difference between winning and losing, then it sticks with you for years. The decision itself isn't the problem, it's the impact. It's exactly the reason why Italy always seem to get shafted and New Zealand seem to get away with murder.

Gerry forgot this one by the way, the most egregious refereeing call Connacht were ever involved in. Why did he omit it I wonder?

Champions Cup officials admit error for Connacht’s decisive try against Wasps | Champions Cup | The Guardian

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734870#Comment_119734870

To be fair, the 2nd quote isn’t Gerry’s opinion; it’s him quoting a Connacht official. Bit harsh to hold that one against him, no?

(Disclaimer that I haven’t read the full article yet).

ClanofLams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734870#Comment_119734870

One is a factual statement. One is the view of a Connacht official. At no point does Thornley himself suggest there is a conspiracy and it's misleading at best to suggest he does.

His own view is made clear in the closing paragraphs and as I noted, references 'smaller' teams across sports.

"Of course, for the so-called smaller clubs, counties, provinces or international teams in a variety of team sports, the feeling has long since existed that on balance the decisions go the way of their bigger counterparts, especially when they are at home. Penalties at Old Trafford and all that.

So maybe Connacht supporters, and management and players alike, can have a tendency to be a little paranoid. But then again, they’re probably entitled to be."

Interested Observer

In their next game they went to Belfast and were beaten 58-12 by Ulster on a night when Welsh referee Ian Davies did not award Connacht one solitary penalty in the entire game

I'm not really following the discussion so have nothing to add but to say that is straight up mad. Connacht have been on the end of a few of those, I remember an Italian ref giving a penalty count of something like 17-2 against them playing Cardiff a few seasons back, pretty sure the ref was stood down after that.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119734961#Comment_119734961

Jerry Thornley spoke of an incident where connacht was beating a big French team and close to the end of the game, he penalised connacht for not getting rid of the ball from a ruck after the 'use it' call. He gave a penalty in front of the posts... there is no protocol for giving a penalty for not using the ball.

I think these things happen to teams when they're winning and they're not 'supposed' to win a game. The ref is probably conscious that they don't want to be responsible for costing the big team a match so they even it up a bit to get the expected outcome.

Former Former Former

15. Jimmy O’Brien (56)

14. Liam Turner (6)

13. Garry Ringrose (105) CAPTAIN

12. Charlie Ngatai (4)

11. Rob Russell (7)

10. Ross Byrne (132)

9. Cormac Foley (7)

1. Ed Byrne (88)

2. Dan Sheehan (32)

3. Tadhg Furlong (127)

4. Ross Molony (143)

5. James Ryan (60)

6. Caelan Doris (56)

7. Josh van der Flier (116)

8. Jack Conan (118)

16. John McKee (5)

17. Andrew Porter (94)

18. Michael Ala’alatoa (29)

19. Joe McCarthy (12)

20. Martin Moloney (8)

21. Nick McCarthy (48)

22. Ciarán Frawley (58)

23. Robbie Henshaw (71)

Former Former Former

Gonna have to grind this one out through the forwards. Huge opportunity for Foley.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119738610#Comment_119738610

Good team, but a lot weaker than last week, minus Sexton, Jenkins, Henshaw, Porter (latter two obviously on the bench).

Strong back row. Great to see Tadhg back. James Ryan needs a big night, the Connacht line out was superb last Friday night. Interesting to see Maloney get the chance to build on his good form last week off the bench.

We're really lacking back three cover right now; no real options on the bench there and Turner is a player who the jury is very out on for me. Don't think he's a winger either.

El_Duderino 09

Interesting team. Strong forwards and inexperienced backs. The forwards really need to do their job because I don't think they can rely on that backline to make the difference. Great opportunity to get gametime for that group, but it's a very winnable game so they need to get the win. Connacht has a real tendency to play well against leinster.

It's a risk.

Clegg

Great to see Frawley and Furlong back.

Was worried the former would be out for longer.

stephen_n

Glad to see foley getting the start. Odd to think James Ryan coming in might weaken the pack. Might help with the lineout though. Thought Connacht were fairly good there last week.

El_Duderino 09

I agree Ryan needs a good run of form. I'm a bit skeptical of Ryan. He burst onto the scene and was a serious player, but he hasn't been having the same impact in the last couple of seasons. Jenkins shows what a big second row is and I think it highlights the contrast with Ryan. Jenkinsnis surely the best second row at the club at the moment.

I know Ryan does the dirty work, but that's bread and butter to a second row. I'm not sure Ryan is adding value beyond doing the basic job, certainly not like Jenkins and not even like Moloney.

On form, I'd say Moloney is doing better than Ryan was last year (I know he hasn't really played this year yet so he doesn't really have form). If he doesn't outplay moloney is there any chance that the Champion's Cup second row is Jenkins and Moloney?

Lsdrugbyfan

No.

Dubinusa

I think Ryan is not the same player because of the concussions. We'll see how he goes.

stephen_n

Anything is possible but we have never seen a fully fit Ryan benched for Ireland or a major game for Leinster. So I seriously doubt it. More likely to see a Ryan and Jenkins combination.

Clegg

Ryan was one of our best players during the New Zealand tour. Bit early in the season to be writing him off lads.