Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

sydthebeat

^
Yep
I thought Byrne was actually quite good behind a retreating pack

clsmooth

Clegg wrote: »

I think going forward we simply have to try and change our style of play. We've become very dependent on winning the collisions. Obviously winning those is a key part of rugby. But it's got to the stage where the players lose their composure if they get knocked back for a few phases. That shouldn't happen to players as talented as that.

I thought we were developing an attacking kicking game post-lockdown we'd started using our centres to out through little chips and grubbers to get behind defences and those actually led to some trys. But we abandoned that midway through the Saracens QF and we've seen none of it since. We need something that will make the bigger packs second guess themselves. Currently we're just too predictable.

I’ve felt uneasy a few times this season when we’ve driven over 4 tries and got a early BP in the Pro 14. Its our go to in the Pro 14 and the reason why Penny has scored so many tries this season (and Kelleher last season). Works great when you’re the bigger team but hasn’t worked against Sarries or La Rochelle today. Problem is it’s the most efficient way to play in the league but can come short against Europe’s elite. The Pro 14’s strength hasn’t helped us. La Rochelle just looked more battle hardened tonight.

Buer

corny wrote: »

I thought Byrne played well behind a beaten pack. Really well actually.

Skelton and Antonio gave them the advantage line so many times it hurt. We couldn't generate any line speed and their halfbacks were excellent in using the platform. We perhaps could have gone for Skeltons legs a little more but that's a minor gripe.

At the other end... Carly likes blowing his whistle for holding on. He wasn't unfair in his interpretation but, points from penalties aside, it didn't suit us that we couldn't run through a high number of phases. They either gave up a penalty or won the turnover. They were happy to roll the dice and make the game stop start.

It certainly didn't suit our game plan or our personnel. If we had a fully fit and on form Dan Leavy, he'd have had a field day. But we had a back row made up of three guys who aren't renowned for their ground work. The La Rochelle pack had multiple ground hogs who are able to get hands on. All it took was hands on the ball for a moment and it was rewarded. I don't think there was even a clear lift at any point for several of them. But Carley was consistent and we just didn't/couldn't adjust.

I think we'd have had a much better chance with Connors and Ruddock out there. Connors would have stemmed their flow of forward ball somewhat as would Ruddock. As I posted before kick off, Ruddock would have had the job of meeting guys like Skelton and Vito in midfield and making those hits stick. When he went off, it was a huge blow to our ability to hold them back.

sebdavis

I watched the SA teams on Saturday, if anything they will mean Leinster will have to man up in the forwards. Some of them lads are bloody huge

AbusesToilets

We could do with getting more out of thenbackn3. They're talented, but not threatening in attack to the level they could. Our counter attacking from deep in particular hasn't been great.

Clegg

I hope we use the Rainbow Cup primarily to blood younger players and introduce long term injury layoffs back into the side.

Give H Byrne and Frawley the chance to bed in a partnership. Let TOB find out what position in the backline suits him best. Give Penny and Sheehan as many starts at 7 and 2 as possible. These are the lads who'll be part of the spine of the Champions Cup 23 in a few years time. Give them the chance to develop.

Also, I firmly believe that Ryan Baird has the potential to be a quality, test level second row. But to become that he actually needs to be starting regularly there. The exposure he's gotten at test level is invaluable but that's been off the bench. Give him some starts at lock and no more shifting to blindside pls.

Dubinusa

I thought Ross Byrne did well. I don't know if Sexton would have made a difference. Losing Ruddock I think, was the straw that broke the camels back. Baird wasn't good, imo. I would have started Baird at 2nd row. He's probably going to do more damage than Toner. I thought Toner was poor too. Conan was the pick of the pack for me. Healy was great for the opening stanza and looked good with the ball. I think Ryan played very well considering the way things went in the 2nd half.
Luke was poor. His passing was off and he didn't try any quick rund on the edges. This is we're he excels. The centers did well, Ringrose could cut his way through a fart. He beats men for fun.
Larmour Lowe and Keenan were non factors. They all saw little ball. I think the game plan was poor. We gave up so much size to LaRochelle and yet we didn't try to move that huge pack around the park. Very disappointed atm. Not so much with losing, LaRochelle are fantastic, but with the lack of ideas! I would have hoped that Leinster would have tried to kick smarter, with more grabbers and chips in behind. Instead, we were served up some awful box kicking and up and unders from Luke and Lowe.
The magic roundabout tournament should be used for the development of Baird, HB and the academy players. I would like to see TOB and MOR play each of the remaining games. Milne should feature heavily too as should Sheehan and Clarkson. The results mean Nothing.
Congratulations to Gibbes and ROG. I hope they win the final.

TRC10

sydthebeat wrote: »

^
Yep
I thought Byrne was actually quite good behind a retreating pack

Did he?

He constantly caught and passed standing still. Never took the ball to the line.

When our pack was getting knocked back every phase, he never turned the defence (he had one cross field kick under advantage, but he should have kicked a lot more).

His goal kicking was good as always.

sydthebeat

TRC10 wrote: »

Did he?

He constantly caught and passed standing still. Never took the ball to the line.

When our pack was getting knocked back every phase, he never turned the defence (he had one cross field kick under advantage, but he should have kicked a lot more).

His goal kicking was good as always.

He did, yeah...

Neil3030

I'll preface this by saying I only saw the second half of today's match, and while legally neutral, I was definitely supporting the Irish side, if nothing else so ROG doesn't set the bar of expectation too high before taking over next year :pac:

Ross Byrne played well. He made no mistakes that I can racall, he moved the ball when the situations presented themselves, he kicked his goals.

BUT.

On a day like today, with the pack being smashed up front, a top 10 would have imposed himself more on the game. And it could be tiny little things. For e.g., Luke McGrath was skying his exit box-kicks and barely getting 10m, because LaR knew the ball wasn't going to the 10, so they could double up on the pillars and pile on the pressure. Byrne has to be demanding the ball after one or two of those, if nothing else, to make the blitz second guess a point of attack.

He's young enough that I don't think we've seen his ceiling, and I hope that he can kick on.

Jump_In_Jack

TRC10 wrote: »

Did he?

He constantly caught and passed standing still. Never took the ball to the line.

When our pack was getting knocked back every phase, he never turned the defence (he had one cross field kick under advantage, but he should have kicked a lot more).

His goal kicking was good as always.

He missed the very first kick at goal which was an easy one and it could have put Leinster 10 nil up very early on which might have changed the game with that much pressure early on.

Dubinusa

Leinster didn't fire a shot for long spells. The discipline is very worrying and so is the work at rucks. I think the game plan was probably to hammer La Rochelle and force them to make tackles. The problem was that lots of time we were stopped dead or driven back. Here's where I struggle to see what they were trying to accomplish. They were unable to wear them down, they couldn't get the ball and yet they persisted with tactics that were clearly not working. Physically we were smaller and that generally is not so much of a problem, but to continue running into brick walls !
I doubt that Doris would have done any better than Conan. Conan really put himself about. I believe that we went into this with 1 top class lock and 1 well past this level. Toner is not a physical player and he doesn't make ground. I would have gone with Baird! He's a vastly better athlete and a superior ball carrier. I think Fardy offers very little at this level also. It's harsh on Toner and Fardy, but Leinster have got to get Baird into the 4 shirt for the Cinderella cup. For what it's worth, the pack was well beaten and I thought Ryan and Conan were our best players.
Next year the likes of Deeny and Charlie Ryan start to come through. Depending on Toner at this level is not going to work. I would also have picked Josh Murphy over Fardy, for the bench. The tide is ebbing away for the old timers and I think we've put ourselves in this position by not going with Dunne and Baird and Molony for these kinds of matches.

Dubinusa

Next weekend I think should be
1. Dooley
2. Sheehan
3. Bent
4. Baird
5. Ryan
6. Murphy
7. Penny
8. Doris
9. JGP if ready
10. HB
11 TOB
12 Hawkshaw
13. ROL
14. DK
15. MOR

16. Kelleher
17. Milne if healthy
18. Clarkson
19. Deeny
20. SOB
21. Osborn
22. Frawley
23. Turner.

The season is over. Use this run of matches to get the youngster minutes.

swiwi_

Neil3030 wrote: »

I'll preface this by saying I only saw the second half of today's match, and while legally neutral, I was definitely supporting the Irish side, if nothing else so ROG doesn't set the bar of expectation too high before taking over next year :pac:

Ross Byrne played well. He made no mistakes that I can racall, he moved the ball when the situations presented themselves, he kicked his goals.

BUT.

On a day like today, with the pack being smashed up front, a top 10 would have imposed himself more on the game. And it could be tiny little things. For e.g., Luke McGrath was skying his exit box-kicks and barely getting 10m, because LaR knew the ball wasn't going to the 10, so they could double up on the pillars and pile on the pressure. Byrne has to be demanding the ball after one or two of those, if nothing else, to make the blitz second guess a point of attack.

He's young enough that I don't think we've seen his ceiling, and I hope that he can kick on.

Fancy seeing you in the Leinster thread Neil…

Stout Warrior

sebdavis wrote: »

I watched the SA teams on Saturday, if anything they will mean Leinster will have to man up in the forwards. Some of them lads are bloody huge

It’s a welcome change to the league and hopefully a reality check. South Africans will hopefully lift standards.

Leinster are small stout players. They have a look of being over trained and not fully developed. It’s like with Olympic gymnasts - sometimes their bodies don’t mature physically due to overtraining.

I won’t get into it but it knocks off everything. Rest time is key.

Stout Warrior

Clegg wrote: »

McGrath was very poor alright. I suppose I singled out Byrne because 10 is a more prominent position and there could be a bette player waiting in the wings.

We've an issue at 9 in that both McGrath and JGP are excellent footballers but have deficiencies for a scrum half. With McGrath it's always been his passing. He's improved that aspect of his game a lot since he first became a pro, but every so often he'll have a nightmare game from the base of the ruck. Today was one of those.

Gibson Park is far superior. He doesn’t have the deficiencies McGrath has in his game that tell in close matches.

I was going to say you sound like Simon Cowell where you are looking for tiny margins in everything the players do and consequently nothing is good enough for you.

I suppose you’re right to be like that and you have to question even good play. Sometimes it’s best to leave it up to the player. Rewarding autonomy gets results and criticising or trying to control every aspect can backfire

Rugby4568

Podge_irl wrote: »

Between 2 and 10, then 100% at 10. I don't think there is anything wrong with Kelleher.

Would probably take a genuine world class 9 though.

Imagine we got Dupont

Akrasia

Rugby4568 wrote: »

Imagine we got Dupont

Keep your hands off our Craig Casey!

Buer

Podge_irl wrote: »

Between 2 and 10, then 100% at 10. I don't think there is anything wrong with Kelleher.

Would probably take a genuine world class 9 though.

On Kelleher, I was quite happy with his performance yesterday. He has copped criticism for his throwing in the past but was 100% yesterday. Along with Conan, he was the guy who was trying to inject some aggression and venom into our attack when he carried.

Unfortunately for him, his opposite number was MOTM so people are only taking about one hooker but Kelleher was very good I thought.

If we're looking at our pack in terms of who underperformed, I think we have to admit that both Furlong and Ryan didn't play to the levels they're capable of. Furlong looked shattered by the time he came off and conceded a critical scrum penalty shortly beforehand. It's a game of small margins. That scrum came from Baird being unable to gather a straight run in to the line. Instead it's a scrum, penalty kicked into our 22 and La Rochelle get the opening score of the half and a massive mental boost.

Ryan didn't have his best game. Put himself about but had a lack of impact. I don't get the narrative that some are trotting out about him being poor recently. His limited performances on the 6N were as good as ever. But yesterday he looked like a guy who wasn't ready for this level yet.

sebdavis

Stout Warrior wrote: »

It’s a welcome change to the league and hopefully a reality check. South Africans will hopefully lift standards.

Leinster are small stout players. They have a look of being over trained and not fully developed. It’s like with Olympic gymnasts - sometimes their bodies don’t mature physically due to overtraining.

I won’t get into it but it knocks off everything. Rest time is key.

Come on now, the problem is not down to training. Irish players will never be the build of a South African or be like a Skelton. No matter what S&C we try.

We used to have an advantage over the French because if we could last till the 3rd quarter they would fall off a cliff with fitness. That is gone now with the "new" French players wanting to be as fit as players from other countries. Loads of coachs have confirmed this. So in the 3rd qtr when Leinster might have expected to try and turn the screw it was La Rochelle who upped the game and had a better bench.

Leinster are still firmly in the top 4 in Europe, could argue they would have beaten La Rochelle if the game was at RDS as well.

Playing week in week out against big packs like th SA will mean they should be able to deal with it better. It won't be as much of a shock, plus it will strengthen the squad with young players getting more competitve games

Leinster could go the Munster direction and just buy in a load of SA's to try combat the bigger packs as well

sebdavis

Dubinusa wrote: »

Next weekend I think should be
1. Dooley
2. Sheehan
3. Bent
4. Baird
5. Ryan
6. Murphy
7. Penny
8. Doris
9. JGP if ready
10. HB
11 TOB
12 Hawkshaw
13. ROL
14. DK
15. MOR

16. Kelleher
17. Milne if healthy
18. Clarkson
19. Deeny
20. SOB
21. Osborn
22. Frawley
23. Turner.

The season is over. Use this run of matches to get the youngster minutes.

Will they not go out now and try win the rainbow cup for all its worth? just to pee off Munster :P if nothing else.

The senior players will be looking to get back on the horse to push for the Lions.

sebdavis

sebdavis wrote: »

Will they not go out now and try win the rainbow cup for all its worth? just to pee off Munster :P if nothing else.

The senior players will be looking to get back on the horse to push for the Lions.

Lions team is being announced Thursday so there is no more pushing for a Lions place unfortunately.

salmocab

sebdavis wrote: »

Will they not go out now and try win the rainbow cup for all its worth? just to pee off Munster :P if nothing else.

The senior players will be looking to get back on the horse to push for the Lions.

Cant believe any club will be doing anything other than having an eye on next year for the rainbow cup. It’s a worthless competition and whilst I’m sure the players on the pitch will certainly want to win the games I doubt anyone is planning on making a big run at what is effectively a post season competition to fill a void.

sebdavis

salmocab wrote: »

Cant believe any club will be doing anything other than having an eye on next year for the rainbow cup. It’s a worthless competition and whilst I’m sure the players on the pitch will certainly want to win the games I doubt anyone is planning on making a big run at what is effectively a post season competition to fill a void.

Munster seem to be trying to win it......

molloyjh

TRC10 wrote: »

Did he?

He constantly caught and passed standing still. Never took the ball to the line.

When our pack was getting knocked back every phase, he never turned the defence (he had one cross field kick under advantage, but he should have kicked a lot more).

His goal kicking was good as always.

He made 28m to Wests 3. That's more metres than Ringrose or Larmour. The only LAR back to make more metres than him was Leyds who made 31m.

aloooof

Dubinusa wrote: »

The magic roundabout tournament...

I hope this sticks.

Stout Warrior

sebdavis wrote: »

Come on now, the problem is not down to training. Irish players will never be the build of a South African or be like a Skelton. No matter what S&C we try.

We used to have an advantage over the French because if we could last till the 3rd quarter they would fall off a cliff with fitness. That is gone now with the "new" French players wanting to be as fit as players from other countries. Loads of coachs have confirmed this. So in the 3rd qtr when Leinster might have expected to try and turn the screw it was La Rochelle who upped the game and had a better bench.

Leinster are still firmly in the top 4 in Europe, could argue they would have beaten La Rochelle if the game was at RDS as well.

Playing week in week out against big packs like th SA will mean they should be able to deal with it better. It won't be as much of a shock, plus it will strengthen the squad with young players getting more competitve games

Leinster could go the Munster direction and just buy in a load of SA's to try combat the bigger packs as well

I said specifically that we have big men in this country it’s up to Leinster to recruit them in the match thread earlier this morning. My suggestion is that we send scouts out to the building yards and sites across the city and make offers to 20 year olds who are over 6’6 and 16/17 stones. They exist in Ireland it’s just the schools aren’t producing them.

Alternatively scout all the farm yards across Leinster and you’ll find a few of them.

aloooof

Stout Warrior wrote: »

I said specifically that we have big men in this country it’s up to Leinster to recruit them in the match thread earlier this morning. My suggestion is that we send scouts out to the building yards and sites across the city and make offers to 20 year olds who are over 6’6 and 16/17 stones. They exist in Ireland it’s just the schools aren’t producing them.

Would they not be much too far behind in their skills development at that stage? I'd wager you need to get them earlier than that.

Akrasia

sebdavis wrote: »

Munster seem to be trying to win it......

I can’t find it anywhere on the internet but heard on some podcast that the prize money for the rainbow cup is supposed to be very good, given the financial hardship most teams find themselves in at the moment, it could be the difference between keeping a few staff members of having to make them redundant

aloooof

sebdavis wrote: »

Leinster could go the Munster direction and just buy in a load of SA's to try combat the bigger packs as well

sebdavis wrote: »

Will they not go out now and try win the rainbow cup for all its worth? just to pee off Munster :P if nothing else.

sebdavis wrote: »

Munster seem to be trying to win it......

Ah jaysus...