Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

thomond2006

aloooof wrote: »

Ah jaysus...

Living rent free.

salmocab

sebdavis wrote: »

Munster seem to be trying to win it......

No Munster were very much trying to get a monkey off their backs, it was Leinster not the rainbow cup they were interested in.

salmocab

aloooof wrote: »

Would they not be much too far behind in their skills development at that stage? I'd wager you need to get them earlier than that.

Yes they would but a team lost yesterday so today is all about hyperbole. Someone suggested on the Connacht thread that the irfu need to start a weights program for the players to make them bigger and stronger. It’s just silly season.

TRC10

molloyjh wrote: »

He made 28m to Wests 3. That's more metres than Ringrose or Larmour. The only LAR back to make more metres than him was Leyds who made 31m.

Doesn't change the fact that he was catching and passing standing still all day.

I like Ross Byrne, he has all the skills and he certainly has the temperament to be a top 10, but I think he could have managed the game far better. We should have kicked more when we were getting knocked back on the gainline.

It's also worth noting that in our last 3 CC exits, Luke McGrath has been poor (Saracens 2019, Saracenes 2020, LAR 2021). I'm not saying they were the only problem, they obviously weren't, but unfortunately I don't think our half backs are at the level required to be winning European cups. Every CC winning team has international quality halfbacks, ours yesterday are both 5th and 4th choice respectively for Ireland.

AbusesToilets

What happened to our plans for a developed kicking game? Yesterday was crying out for some kicks to check the rush, instead endless poor box kicks. For as talented as Ringrose and Henshaw are, they tend not to impose themselves on a game if the team isn't on top.

We could also really do with a player who is looking to offload through a tackle consistently. It's on of the best ways to unlock a strong defense like that.

Dubinusa

We won't beat bigger physical teams unless we play smarter rugby. Luke is not the lad we want box kicking. A little sniping might have done the trick? Rochelle slowed down our ruck ball and physically dominated most of the collisions. It's hard for our centers to impose themselves if all we do is box kick. It's also tough for Ryan to impose himself if Toner can't add anything physically? Toner is clearly not at this level. He crumples in contact and he doesn't clear out very well rucking. Baird is not a good replacement for Ruddock. He's not played 6 much and throwing him into the back row looks like a bad move. Ruddock was sorely missed.
Healy started off well, but fell off later on. I think the coaching team got this all wrong, imo.

Buer

So looking forward, do the Leinster players have to quarantine for a number of days now? Jackman mentioned this was the case on the radio; a 5 day quarantine is now required.

If so, there were a lot more than just the 23 in France yesterday. From the looks of it, there were about 27 or 28 players over there.

That gives Leinster an academy team for next week unless they're playing lads who haven't trained all week. The alternative is that they're in a bubble together for the week, I guess?

Exclamation Marc

Buer wrote: »

So looking forward, do the Leinster players have to quarantine for a number of days now? Jackman mentioned this was the case on the radio; a 5 day quarantine is now required.

If so, there were a lot more than just the 23 in France yesterday. From the looks of it, there were about 27 or 28 players over there.

That gives Leinster an academy team for next week unless they're playing lads who haven't trained all week. The alternative is that they're in a bubble together for the week, I guess?

Five day hotel quarantine followed by a five day quarantine at home with permission to train and to play Connacht. Assuming negative pcr tests. It's under a special exemption.

salmocab

Buer wrote: »

So looking forward, do the Leinster players have to quarantine for a number of days now? Jackman mentioned this was the case on the radio; a 5 day quarantine is now required.

If so, there were a lot more than just the 23 in France yesterday. From the looks of it, there were about 27 or 28 players over there.

That gives Leinster an academy team for next week unless they're playing lads who haven't trained all week. The alternative is that they're in a bubble together for the week, I guess?

They will be somewhere with training facilities not ideal but I’d say anyone fit will be available

sebdavis

Stout Warrior wrote: »

I said specifically that we have big men in this country it’s up to Leinster to recruit them in the match thread earlier this morning. My suggestion is that we send scouts out to the building yards and sites across the city and make offers to 20 year olds who are over 6’6 and 16/17 stones. They exist in Ireland it’s just the schools aren’t producing them.

Alternatively scout all the farm yards across Leinster and you’ll find a few of them.

The Leinster forwards are getting more and more skilful, look at the ability of the forwards to pass the ball. Just going and hiring lumps because they are big but can’t pass the ball? Not sure why anyone would think that’s a great idea

We have plenty of excellent players, Irish people will never be built the same as some other countries, so better to create a game plan to by pass those teams strengths and play to ours.

The problem is Leinster come up against the best teams in Europe once or twice a season and that’s normally in the qtr/semi....try something and lose and 12 months to try something again.

At least with the SA teams they will be coming up against decent competition on a regular basis, not just for the 23 but the extended squad, plus they get to test out tactical plans to by pass those SA lumps, if one plan doesn’t work, that’s ok try another the next week.

I can’t wait till next year, the introduction of the SA teams should massively improve Leinster and Leinster players

sebdavis

Neil3030 wrote: »

I'll preface this by saying I only saw the second half of today's match, and while legally neutral, I was definitely supporting the Irish side, if nothing else so ROG doesn't set the bar of expectation too high before taking over next year :pac:

Ross Byrne played well. He made no mistakes that I can racall, he moved the ball when the situations presented themselves, he kicked his goals.

BUT.

On a day like today, with the pack being smashed up front, a top 10 would have imposed himself more on the game. And it could be tiny little things. For e.g., Luke McGrath was skying his exit box-kicks and barely getting 10m, because LaR knew the ball wasn't going to the 10, so they could double up on the pillars and pile on the pressure. Byrne has to be demanding the ball after one or two of those, if nothing else, to make the blitz second guess a point of attack.

He's young enough that I don't think we've seen his ceiling, and I hope that he can kick on.

Sexton was playing v Saracens twice and could do nothing to change what was going on around him. Sexton also played against England a number of times and could do nothing

I thought Byrne done ok, it’s a pity the cross field didn’t connect with Lowe but apart from that he played week.

Would we have won with Sexton at 10? In my opinion it would have made no difference to score

Tim Robbins

TRC10 wrote: »

Did he?

He constantly caught and passed standing still. Never took the ball to the line.

When our pack was getting knocked back every phase, he never turned the defence (he had one cross field kick under advantage, but he should have kicked a lot more).

His goal kicking was good as always.

Ross Byrne doesn't really step into the pass and passes it a lot of the time when his feet are still and it's also really obvious who he is passing to. He's a 7 / 10 out half. Carberry, Frawley both better players.

Anyway, there's a load of nonsense and rubbish in the media. The biggest difference between the sides in my view yesterday was the biggest man, Wil Skelton. 140KG. All that cr*p about KBA. It's more about you have a giant who plays in the middle of the park, you do five man lineouts and he carries over the gain line and give you massive momentum. When you get momentum in Rugby you get everything. The front foot, your back line moves are much easier and even 50 - 50 calls starts going your way.

In a game like yesterday physicality means so much. Leavy and Doris are 10% more physical than VDF and Conan and that doesn't matter a crap against the pro 14 teams but it does against the big Euro teams. Sexton more physical than Ross Byrne. Cian Healy way more physical a few years ago.

That is one reason why I'd like Frawley playing 10 over both the Byrnes. He is far more physical and has just as good if not better passing and kicking game.

The team yesterday was very good, but we want to move to the next level we need more physicality.

Buer

Frawley isn't in the same bracket at all as Byrne as a passer (or an outhalf). The accuracy of his passing was a major issue when he played there. Multiple passes were off target and caused the back line to break down. He has barely featured there in the last 12 months with HB being the preferred option. He has far more potential as a 12 at this point.

BoardsMember

Buer wrote: »

Frawley isn't in the same bracket at all as Byrne as a passer (or an outhalf). The accuracy of his passing was a major issue when he played there. Multiple passes were off target and caused the back line to break down. He has barely featured there in the last 12 months with HB being the preferred option. He has far more potential as a 12 at this point.

You're not exactly selling him as a 12 if his passing is that suspect!

Buer

BoardsMember wrote: »

You're not exactly selling him as a 12 if his passing is that suspect!

A fair point. I think he struggles with the decision making. An outhalf normally has two or three running options to choose from. He can hit a flat ball to someone coming hard to the line, pull it back to bring the back line into it or there might be an inside ball available. Sometimes there's more than one runner to pull it back to. Frawley tends to be a bit off with the selection and execution. It seems that he's dwelling on the option and makes a mess of it particularly when he's playing that ball out the back to a runner.

At 12, the options are diminished. There's less pressure, fewer decisions and he can play what he sees more comfortably. Maybe it's an experience thing and he will get more comfortable with it. But I don't think he has an ounce of the composure of Ross Byrne as an outhalf.

BoardsMember

Buer wrote: »

A fair point. I think he struggles with the decision making. An outhalf normally has two or three running options to choose from. He can hit a flat ball to someone coming hard to the line, pull it back to bring the back line into it or there might be an inside ball available. Sometimes there's more than one runner to pull it back to. Frawley tends to be a bit off with the selection and execution. It seems that he's dwelling on the option and makes a mess of it particularly when he's playing that ball out the back to a runner.

At 12, the options are diminished. There's less pressure, fewer decisions and he can play what he sees more comfortably. Maybe it's an experience thing and he will get more comfortable with it. But I don't think he has an ounce of the composure of Ross Byrne as an outhalf.

I haven't seen much of him at ten, or anywhere really. When I have seen him at 10 or 12, he has looked quite an imposing and confident player. I'd like to see more of him.

TRC10

Tim Robbins wrote: »

That is one reason why I'd like Frawley playing 10 over both the Byrnes. He is far more physical and has just as good if not better passing and kicking game.

Have you seen Harry Byrne play??? He's even more physical than Sexton. He fecking loves a carry. I think it's one of the reasons he picks up so many knocks, because of how much he commits in defence and in the carry.

H.Byrne is by far the most likely to get to Sexton's level out of all Leinster's options. I think he'll surpass Ross next season (he would have this season if it weren't for the knocks). It was very clear when I saw Harry playing Ireland u20s, that he was going to be a better player than Ross. Mainly because of how much more physical he is and how much better his running game is.

Juventu4

With talk post La Rochelle game of Leinster needing more power and physicality in the second row as Toner just does not bring it. We're limited in our options on who we can bring in but Quinn Rouxs contract I believe is up at Connacht, anyone think he's worth a punt? He would certainly help James Ryan as that man is being asked to do much on field.

sebdavis

Juventu4 wrote: »

With talk post La Rochelle game of Leinster needing more power and physicality in the second row as Toner just does not bring it. We're limited in our options on who we can bring in but Quinn Rouxs contract I believe is up at Connacht, anyone think he's worth a punt? He would certainly help James Ryan as that man is being asked to do much on field.

He struggles the first time at Leinster, not sure he is the answer either. With the addition of theSA team would it not be better to try some game plans to get around these packs?

Juventu4

sebdavis wrote: »

He struggles the first time at Leinster, not sure he is the answer either. With the addition of theSA team would it not be better to try some game plans to get around these packs?

He's a lot better now and has grown and physically developed. Problem with getting around these packs is the Fitness levels of them are improving and the way the breakdown is reffed are phase game plan is redundant. Players just have to touch the ball at the ruck even if there in a bad body position and get the penalty.

Buer

Roux is a vastly better player than the guy who left. His power in the tight is exactly what we need. He's a key player for Connacht though and I've no desire to pilfer their playing stocks.

Leinster aren't signing any additional players for next season at this point so we'll need to plan with what we have. Baird needs to play a lot of games at lock right now to start developing. He was vastly overpowered at the weekend and is not a flanker in anything outside his open field carries.

Juventu4

Buer wrote: »

Roux is a vastly better player than the guy who left. His power in the tight is exactly what we need. He's a key player for Connacht though and I've no desire to pilfer their playing stocks.

Leinster aren't signing any additional players for next season at this point so we'll need to plan with what we have. Baird needs to play a lot of games at lock right now to start developing. He was vastly overpowered at the weekend and is not a flanker in anything outside his open field carries.

Interesting to see if he extends his contract in the coming weeks, think he's a realistic option due to him being Irish qualified as well. The one player I would love Leinster to sign is Thornbury, vastly underrated and a big guy as well.

FrannoFan

Juventu4 wrote: »

Interesting to see if he extends his contract in the coming weeks, think he's a realistic option due to him being Irish qualified as well. The one player I would love Leinster to sign is Thornbury, vastly underrated and a big guy as well.

Thornbury is similar frame to a lot of the current options. Don't think it will address the issues we had at the weekend.

Watched some to the sharks v stormers game. Massive packs. I think a new direction is whats needed (as personnel turnover isnt really an option) NZ figured out a way to play against SA and win, think we need a similar approach.
We are the biggest team in the pro14 so play "big boy" rugby but in Europe we come up against bigger teams so it doesn't work.
The addition of the SA teams and some tweaking of our attack hopefully helps us think our way around the problem. rugby is a collision sport, generally the bigger team will win but in a closer contest with top level skill execution it isn't impossible to turn it around.

sebdavis

Buer wrote: »

Roux is a vastly better player than the guy who left. His power in the tight is exactly what we need. He's a key player for Connacht though and I've no desire to pilfer their playing stocks.

Leinster aren't signing any additional players for next season at this point so we'll need to plan with what we have. Baird needs to play a lot of games at lock right now to start developing. He was vastly overpowered at the weekend and is not a flanker in anything outside his open field carries.

Baird needs time, he is very young. The likes of Maloney etc need to step up

FrannoFan

sebdavis wrote: »

Baird needs time, he is very young. The likes of Maloney etc need to step up

Maloney doesn't seem to have the frame/bulk to be a top level second row.
Runs a good lineout, makes his tackles, grand for pro14 but not a european level player.

Juventu4

FrannoFan wrote: »

Maloney doesn't seem to have the frame/bulk to be a top level second row.
Runs a good lineout, makes his tackles, grand for pro14 but not a european level player.

Exactly, at Pro 14 Dev and Molony are great options to have but at business end of the season in knockout champions cup we need more ballast in the second row. Problem with Molony is his opposite number will likely have 10-12 kg on him easy. To get the best out of Ryan a guy like Roux who's over 120kg will do a lot of the grunt work to free up Ryan for the more athletic stuff.

Clegg

I'm seeing some criticism online of James Ryan which I think is a bit misplaced. He's the same player he's always been imo. The athletic, high work rate second row who does everything to a high standard.

I think he's not as prominent right now because there's been an overall decline in power in Leinster's pack. We still have a lot of good players there, but when we won the Champions Cup in 2018 we had Healy at near his best, Fardy and Leavy. Three mongrels who did so much dirty work at the ruck. That left Ryan to play his own game which he excelled at.

But now, the former have declined with age and Leavy isn't available to us currently. Ryan has to do a lot more dirty work, which means he isn't as prominent in the areas he excelled in when he first broke through. He's still improved as a player in general though. He's now one of the best defensive lineout operators around and stole more opposition lineouts in the Six Nations than any other player despite only taking part in two full games.

I don't want to absolve Ryan of all blame though. Doing the dirty work is a huge part of what a lock does on the pitch. But right now we just don't have the players for it.

Juventu4

Clegg wrote: »

I'm seeing some criticism online of James Ryan which I think is a bit misplaced. He's the same player he's always been imo. The athletic, high work rate second row who does everything to a high standard.

I think he's not as prominent right now because there's been an overall decline in power in Leinster's pack. We still have a lot of good players there, but when we won the Champions Cup in 2018 we had Healy at near his best, Fardy and Leavy. Three mongrels who did so much dirty work at the ruck. That left Ryan to play his own game which he excelled at.

But now, the former have declined with age and Leavy isn't available to us currently. Ryan has to do a lot more dirty work, which means he isn't as prominent in the areas he excelled in when he first broke through. He's still improved as a player in general though. He's now one of the best defensive lineout operators around and stole more opposition lineouts in the Six Nations than any other player despite only taking part in two full games.

I don't want to absolve Ryan of all blame though. Doing the dirty work is a huge part of what a lock does on the pitch. But right now we just don't have the players for it.

Getting Leavy back would be a massive boost, we have no replacement for Fardy so we have to hope Baird can step in quickly. Ryan definitely needs help as his body won't hold up in professional rugby if he has to do all the grunt work and carries. Ryan is like a Victor Matfield, he needs a Bakkies Botha type player playing beside him.

sebdavis

Clegg wrote: »

I'm seeing some criticism online of James Ryan which I think is a bit misplaced. He's the same player he's always been imo. The athletic, high work rate second row who does everything to a high standard.

I think he's not as prominent right now because there's been an overall decline in power in Leinster's pack. We still have a lot of good players there, but when we won the Champions Cup in 2018 we had Healy at near his best, Fardy and Leavy. Three mongrels who did so much dirty work at the ruck. That left Ryan to play his own game which he excelled at.

But now, the former have declined with age and Leavy isn't available to us currently. Ryan has to do a lot more dirty work, which means he isn't as prominent in the areas he excelled in when he first broke through. He's still improved as a player in general though. He's now one of the best defensive lineout operators around and stole more opposition lineouts in the Six Nations than any other player despite only taking part in two full games.

I don't want to absolve Ryan of all blame though. Doing the dirty work is a huge part of what a lock does on the pitch. But right now we just don't have the players for it.

Unless Ryan is a 8-10 out of 10 people will complain about him. He done ok at the weekend but was overpowered. He still is very very young in terms of second rows and was on his way back from injury

They had a plan at the weekend and it didn’t work out, I’m sure that plan wasn’t to have Toner and Ryan trying to over power La Rochelle

TRC10

sebdavis wrote: »

He struggles the first time at Leinster, not sure he is the answer either. With the addition of theSA team would it not be better to try some game plans to get around these packs?

How is that relevant?

Cooney and Beirne struggled the first time at Leinster but we'd all love them back.

Surely the player they are now is more relevant than who they were 7 years ago in Roux's case.