Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

Tim Robbins

TRC10 wrote: »

Have you seen Harry Byrne play??? He's even more physical than Sexton. He fecking loves a carry. I think it's one of the reasons he picks up so many knocks, because of how much he commits in defence and in the carry.

H.Byrne is by far the most likely to get to Sexton's level out of all Leinster's options. I think he'll surpass Ross next season (he would have this season if it weren't for the knocks). It was very clear when I saw Harry playing Ireland u20s, that he was going to be a better player than Ross. Mainly because of how much more physical he is and how much better his running game is.

I was at the U20 game against Scotland and HB didn't play well and was taken off. CF is a far better player in my view.

P.Walnuts

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I was at the U20 game against Scotland and HB didn't play well and was taken off. CF is a far better player in my view.

You're telling me a 19 yr old kid had a bad day at the office?

That's it, cancel his contract ! There's no possible way he could ever improve

sebdavis

TRC10 wrote: »

How is that relevant?

Cooney and Beirne struggled the first time at Leinster but we'd all love them back.

Surely the player they are now is more relevant than who they were 7 years ago in Roux's case.

:-)

This bits relevant?

“not sure he is the answer either. With the addition of theSA team would it not be better to try some game plans to get around these packs?”

Dubinusa

Ryan is doing more with less. Toner and Fardy are way off the level required. Baird is raw, young and inexperienced. We rarely produce big locks. Ian Nagle was an Irish big lock, 6ft 6 and 18st 10lbs. Most of our lads are like Mick Kearney, 6ft 5 and 17 st 4 lbs. The outliers are Darren O'Shea who isn't good enough and Toner, who took years to get to his peak. Jack Dunne could be viable. 6ft 8 and 17st 8. If he adds a few more kilos and gets more match time, who knows?
The facts are that Healy is on the downside. The replacement is not as good. Toner is also toast at this level. Same for Fardy. Losing Ruddock on Sunday took physicality and experience off our side. Baird is not a 6! At least not at this level. Josh Murphy would have been a better call, imo. He brings physicalcality and experience to the position. I'm not saying would have changed the outcome but, I believe it would have leveled the packs a little. I think the selections by the coaching team were wrong. But, there's plenty of lads coming up. The biggest problem is loosehead. There's a weakness at the position. Ed Byrne is good as is Dooley, but not top level players. Hooker will be a strong position going forward. Sheehan, Treacy and Kelleher are a good unit.

Lost Ormond

Dubinusa wrote: »

Ryan is doing more with less. Toner and Fardy are way off the level required. Baird is raw, young and inexperienced. We rarely produce big locks. Ian Nagle was an Irish big lock, 6ft 6 and 18st 10lbs. Most of our lads are like Mick Kearney, 6ft 5 and 17 st 4 lbs. The outliers are Darren O'Shea who isn't good enough and Toner, who took years to get to his peak. Jack Dunne could be viable. 6ft 8 and 17st 8. If he adds a few more kilos and gets more match time, who knows?

The facts are that Healy is on the downside. The replacement is not as good. Toner is also toast at this level. Same for Fardy. Losing Ruddock on Sunday took physicality and experience off our side. Baird is not a 6! At least not at this level. Josh Murphy would have been a better call, imo. He brings physicalcality and experience to the position. I'm not saying would have changed the outcome but, I believe it would have leveled the packs a little. I think the selections by the coaching team were wrong. But, there's plenty of lads coming up. The biggest problem is loosehead. There's a weakness at the position. Ed Byrne is good as is Dooley, but not top level players. Hooker will be a strong position going forward. Sheehan, Treacy and Kelleher are a good unit.

Thats not really true. Ryan also isnt at the level he was a short while back or at the level some are making him out to be.

Fardy way off the level required?? Dont see that at all. Care to show how thats the case?
Baird could be a 6 but he has feck all experience of adult rugby. He has 1200 minutes of pro experience and a part of a season of AIL. Thats nothing. We could easily turn out to be a very good 6 in time.

The next props up behind Healy in Dooley etc likely will not get close to what Healy has done but thats to be expected. Healy has 300 professional appearances, capped 100 times for his country. been a Lions tourist. Very few players have that kind of CV.
Not every player is or has to be a very top level player. Many of the players who beat Leinster this weekend gone wouldnt be listed as top level players.

FrannoFan

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Thats not really true. Ryan also isnt at the level he was a short while back or at the level some are making him out to be.

Fardy way off the level required?? Dont see that at all. Care to show how thats the case?
Baird could be a 6 but he has feck all experience of adult rugby. He has 1200 minutes of pro experience and a part of a season of AIL. Thats nothing. We could easily turn out to be a very good 6 in time.

The next props up behind Healy in Dooley etc likely will not get close to what Healy has done but thats to be expected. Healy has 300 professional appearances, capped 100 times for his country. been a Lions tourist. Very few players have that kind of CV.
Not every player is or has to be a very top level player. Many of the players who beat Leinster this weekend gone wouldnt be listed as top level players.

Hard to show examples but the front of lineout play vs Exeter where kelleher goes up touchline and is tackled fardy misses the clear out on cowan-dickie and he wins he penalty. He isn't what he was. (which is forgivable at his age!)

We need a second row, toner went 71 mins before fardy replaced him. Baird is the natural option.

Healy was possibly Irelands best ever loose head. has had a phenomenal career. Dooley/Byrne won't be that level and jack boyle after that would be doing well to have half the career he has had.

Dubinusa

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Thats not really true. Ryan also isnt at the level he was a short while back or at the level some are making him out to be.

Fardy way off the level required?? Dont see that at all. Care to show how thats the case?
Baird could be a 6 but he has feck all experience of adult rugby. He has 1200 minutes of pro experience and a part of a season of AIL. Thats nothing. We could easily turn out to be a very good 6 in time.

The next props up behind Healy in Dooley etc likely will not get close to what Healy has done but thats to be expected. Healy has 300 professional appearances, capped 100 times for his country. been a Lions tourist. Very few players have that kind of CV.
Not every player is or has to be a very top level player. Many of the players who beat Leinster this weekend gone wouldnt be listed as top level players.

Fardy got 8 minutes! Toner was a non factor! Ryan battled all day. Remember he had about 200 minutes this year! Ryan carried hard and made ground. Toner carried and buckled.

TRC10

sebdavis wrote: »

:-)

This bits relevant?

“not sure he is the answer either. With the addition of theSA team would it not be better to try some game plans to get around these packs?”

I agree with that part.

I was referring to the first part. Where it said Quinn Roux struggled at Leinster 7 years ago, therefore it would be a bad signing.

Dubinusa

Big packs can be beaten! The right game plan has to be executed. The Japanese showed it can be done. If Ireland or Leinster can devise several options to break them down it would be great. But, repeatedly running into brick walls and kicking poor up and unders is not viable. I watch the same box kicking crap time after time and my head implodes!

Buer

Whilst I'd have preferred to see Fardy on instead of Baird as he is an actual blindside, I can see why they made the call. Baird is a far more athletic and explosive player. Fardy is a more shrewd operator but his match intelligence can't mask over his age and diminishing physical ability.

Fardy's performances over the last 4 months have consistently shown he's not the force he was. He was removed very early against Exeter and was our weakest performer on the day. He gave away a silly penalty for a neck roll which was repeated against Munster. He barely touched the ball and made only two tackles in his 50 minutes on the field.

He just doesn't have the legs for the top level anymore and that is clear to anyone watching him in recent times. His mobility has dropped. He doesn't get his hands on the ball as often because of it. His tackle count has dropped. Incredible servant but he's right to call it a day now.

sebdavis

TRC10 wrote: »

I agree with that part.

I was referring to the first part. Where it said Quinn Roux struggled at Leinster 7 years ago, therefore it would be a bad signing.

Roux did struggle with Leinster last time around. I never said he would be a bad signing, I just said he wouldn't be the answer.

Buying a big lump is not the answer, what happens if he isn't fit or out of form?

TRC10

sebdavis wrote: »

Roux did struggle with Leinster last time around. I never said he would be a bad signing, I just said he wouldn't be the answer.

Buying a big lump is not the answer, what happens if he isn't fit or out of form?

Yes....I agree....

I never said he didnt struggle. But even if he did, it's not a reason to not sign him, because he's become a very good player since then. Thats not me saying hes "the answer".

swiwi_

NZ websites saying Jack Regan going to sign for a NH club.

Ospreys.

What is the appeal of a welsh club side????

Richie_Rich89

Buer wrote: »

Whilst I'd have preferred to see Fardy on instead of Baird as he is an actual blindside, I can see why they made the call. Baird is a far more athletic and explosive player. Fardy is a more shrewd operator but his match intelligence can't mask over his age and diminishing physical ability.

Fardy's performances over the last 4 months have consistently shown he's not the force he was. He was removed very early against Exeter and was our weakest performer on the day. He gave away a silly penalty for a neck roll which was repeated against Munster. He barely touched the ball and made only two tackles in his 50 minutes on the field.

He just doesn't have the legs for the top level anymore and that is clear to anyone watching him in recent times. His mobility has dropped. He doesn't get his hands on the ball as often because of it. His tackle count has dropped. Incredible servant but he's right to call it a day now.

With the benefit of hindsight, Murphy would probably have been the best option coming off the bench to replace Ruddock.

theVersatile

swiwi_ wrote: »

What is the appeal of a welsh club side????

Well for one you get to play in the best league in the world, the Pro14.

:pac:

arsebiscuits1

Watched the game back.

Significantly more disappointing writing one of these on the back of a loss. Never fun to lose but especially deflating in knockout rugby. Season over now which is tough to take. But life goes on.

La Rochelle deserved winners on the day. They're obviously a well coached side and literally everything went right for them on the day. Their conversion rate in our half was consistent and it was the difference. It was just their day. The passes stuck, the ball bounced the right way, the 50/50s went to them and they compounded these with impressive efficiency and real power and aggression.

It's what knockout rugby boils down to. Sometimes things go your way and you win. Other times you don't and you lose. We saw the reverse happen in Sandy Park where it was just our day.

"Fine Margins" is a phrase I don't like to rely on. I think it's just a trope at this stage and over relied on by some. But it's what it came down to on this day.

A Ross Byrne cross field kick bounces 6 inches over James Lowes head. Every other time that goes to hand and he marches in in the corner (or at least gets us front foot ball in the 22 which is where La Rochelle were far and away the most vulnerable)

Jordan Larmours inside pass is just slightly higher for Luke McGrath to take (or just Luke takes it - it's was a dry day) and he's over the line too.

The ball sits up literally 2cms to Ryan Baird and he's unopposed under the sticks. Instead it's a scrum penalty to LAR and a 3 pointer off the back of the lineout.

McGrath throws a ground ball after Lowe gathers the Leinster restart deep in the LAR 22. They press and we're on the back foot and turned over (even though Healy was ripped after the tackle was complete). That goes to hand and we've front foot ball against 14 men 10m from their line.

These are unequivocally difference makers in knock out rugby. On a different day we get them.

We unfortunately didn't get some decisions either. I'm not ref bashing here. Nor do I think Carley had a poor game. He just made decisions that on another day would have gone the other way. It happens to you just as often as it happens against you sadly. But with La Rochelles strike rate it was a real difference maker. Times when they got a cheap exit from the middle third and they pinned us back or pinged them over.

Stuff like Kelleher was pinged for being second man - different day LAR are pinged for going straight in off their feet. Easy 3 for them rather than a lineout to us on their 10m

Kelleher completes a tackle. LAR man gets back up illegally and they keep front foot ball and hit the DG. Very close calls there. Different day we're on their 22m with a lineout attack

Gary dives off his feet when Vito goes for the steal on the LAR 22 - Carley whistles for the only instance of attack going off their feet of the day. If he leaves that go as he did all the other counts of it, we build pressure on them as we had a decent platform from the lineout - instead we end up defending well into our 3rd and are lucky not to concede before half time

Individually I thought there were some strong performances.

Conan I thought was excellent and showed real determination to match what was a vastly more physical pack. Healy had some very effective carries in tough circumstances - one of his better games in this area this season for me.

Kelleher was really impressive too I thought. Hit his man every single time right on the apex of the throw. Great to see how comfortable he is at this standard. And he will only continue to get better.

Ryan Baird unfortunately had a game to forget. It's easy to forget how inexperienced it is at times and it showed a bit here. I thought his ruck work was quite poor and he was just hitting too high. He had a moment where he missed his lift on James Ryan who had read the LAR lineout incredibly well. You could hear Ryan calling for himself to jump and Baird went to jump and Ryan shouts at him "ME BAIRDO" I'd expect more from Baird as primarily a second row to be getting his role in the lineout more consistently. These games will stand to him though. I have no doubt he will come out of this better.

Full credit to La Rochelle. I'm hoping for a cracking final. They're a very easy team to cheer for. I just love the way Toulouse play so it will be a really tough call on who to cheer for. I think I will have to be full neutral and just hope for a cracking game of rugby in the final

hahashake

swiwi_ wrote: »

NZ websites saying Jack Regan going to sign for a NH club.

Ospreys.

What is the appeal of a welsh club side????

Probably intends to put himself in the shop window for Ireland à la Beirne.

Also could just be the best/only offer on the table.

Clegg

Ruddock is out for up to 6 weeks with a calf injury. Also, Harry Byrne will miss this weekends game. As a whole this year has been disastrous for injuries.


https://twitter.com/leinsterrugby/status/1389648521305804800?s=09

sebdavis

swiwi_ wrote: »

NZ websites saying Jack Regan going to sign for a NH club.

Ospreys.

What is the appeal of a welsh club side????

I see a lot of players moving around to get closer to home, Covid has affected so many people because they can’t travel as normal.
Maybe he just wants to be close to home and none of the Irish provinces offered him anything
Also in shop window for IRFU

Tim Robbins

P.Walnuts wrote: »

You're telling me a 19 yr old kid had a bad day at the office?

That's it, cancel his contract ! There's no possible way he could ever improve

Ha ha. In that game I saw similar issues to what I see now as a senior. He is very athletic but sometimes over forces things and doesn't play percentages.

Squidgy Black

swiwi_ wrote: »

NZ websites saying Jack Regan going to sign for a NH club.

Ospreys.

What is the appeal of a welsh club side????

He mentioned a whole back he was waiting to hear from the highlanders if he was going to get a full contract but provinces had reached out to him, would imagine there was either no contract there or the money was much better from the Ospreys. Swansea isn't the worst place to live either

AbusesToilets

Clegg wrote: »

Ruddock is out for up to 6 weeks with a calf injury. Also, Harry Byrne will miss this weekends game. As a whole this year has been disastrous for injuries.


https://twitter.com/leinsterrugby/status/1389648521305804800?s=09

Any idea what happened?

Dubinusa

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Watched the game back.

Significantly more disappointing writing one of these on the back of a loss. Never fun to lose but especially deflating in knockout rugby. Season over now which is tough to take. But life goes on.

La Rochelle deserved winners on the day. They're obviously a well coached side and literally everything went right for them on the day. Their conversion rate in our half was consistent and it was the difference. It was just their day. The passes stuck, the ball bounced the right way, the 50/50s went to them and they compounded these with impressive efficiency and real power and aggression.

It's what knockout rugby boils down to. Sometimes things go your way and you win. Other times you don't and you lose. We saw the reverse happen in Sandy Park where it was just our day.

"Fine Margins" is a phrase I don't like to rely on. I think it's just a trope at this stage and over relied on by some. But it's what it came down to on this day.

A Ross Byrne cross field kick bounces 6 inches over James Lowes head. Every other time that goes to hand and he marches in in the corner (or at least gets us front foot ball in the 22 which is where La Rochelle were far and away the most vulnerable)

Jordan Larmours inside pass is just slightly higher for Luke McGrath to take (or just Luke takes it - it's was a dry day) and he's over the line too.

The ball sits up literally 2cms to Ryan Baird and he's unopposed under the sticks. Instead it's a scrum penalty to LAR and a 3 pointer off the back of the lineout.

McGrath throws a ground ball after Lowe gathers the Leinster restart deep in the LAR 22. They press and we're on the back foot and turned over (even though Healy was ripped after the tackle was complete). That goes to hand and we've front foot ball against 14 men 10m from their line.

These are unequivocally difference makers in knock out rugby. On a different day we get them.

We unfortunately didn't get some decisions either. I'm not ref bashing here. Nor do I think Carley had a poor game. He just made decisions that on another day would have gone the other way. It happens to you just as often as it happens against you sadly. But with La Rochelles strike rate it was a real difference maker. Times when they got a cheap exit from the middle third and they pinned us back or pinged them over.

Stuff like Kelleher was pinged for being second man - different day LAR are pinged for going straight in off their feet. Easy 3 for them rather than a lineout to us on their 10m

Kelleher completes a tackle. LAR man gets back up illegally and they keep front foot ball and hit the DG. Very close calls there. Different day we're on their 22m with a lineout attack

Gary dives off his feet when Vito goes for the steal on the LAR 22 - Carley whistles for the only instance of attack going off their feet of the day. If he leaves that go as he did all the other counts of it, we build pressure on them as we had a decent platform from the lineout - instead we end up defending well into our 3rd and are lucky not to concede before half time

Individually I thought there were some strong performances.

Conan I thought was excellent and showed real determination to match what was a vastly more physical pack. Healy had some very effective carries in tough circumstances - one of his better games in this area this season for me.

Kelleher was really impressive too I thought. Hit his man every single time right on the apex of the throw. Great to see how comfortable he is at this standard. And he will only continue to get better.

Ryan Baird unfortunately had a game to forget. It's easy to forget how inexperienced it is at times and it showed a bit here. I thought his ruck work was quite poor and he was just hitting too high. He had a moment where he missed his lift on James Ryan who had read the LAR lineout incredibly well. You could hear Ryan calling for himself to jump and Baird went to jump and Ryan shouts at him "ME BAIRDO" I'd expect more from Baird as primarily a second row to be getting his role in the lineout more consistently. These games will stand to him though. I have no doubt he will come out of this better.

Full credit to La Rochelle. I'm hoping for a cracking final. They're a very easy team to cheer for. I just love the way Toulouse play so it will be a really tough call on who to cheer for. I think I will have to be full neutral and just hope for a cracking game of rugby in the final

I agree with all of this. It's not the end of the world though! Kelleher and Baird got invaluable experience. The bounce didn't go our way and I think La Rochelle kicking penalties to keep in touch throughout the 1st half was disheartening for our lads. We got pinged for some bad penalties in kickable range! I will say that throughout this season, we've had some bad days giving away penalties. I would hope this is worked on this coming few weeks. Anyway, we were outplayed and were deserving lovers.

Sangre

Dubinusa wrote: »

Anyway, we were outplayed and were deserving lovers.

:eek:

Consensual i hope

Dubinusa

Sangre wrote: »

:eek:

Consensual i hope

Lol. Oops! Losers

Neil3030

Better to have loved and lost....

errlloyd

swiwi_ wrote: »

NZ websites saying Jack Regan going to sign for a NH club.

Ospreys.

What is the appeal of a welsh club side????

Tadgh Beirning it is the appeal for sure. Stay close to home here, get the chance to prove yourself against the provinces a few times a year and maybe we bring you home and cap you.

Also, Bradley Davies and AWJ are both getting on. They've some knowledge to impart. There is a strong chance to learn from an absolute legend of the game and replace him. Like don't get me wrong, I'd be staying in New Zealand if there was a contract on offer!!! But Wales has provided a weirdly good home to Irish players before.

Dubinusa

Ruddoc1ks father is at Ospreys and he would have knowledge of Regan. Ospreys signed a flanker too from Ireland. Will Hickey, I think. It's possible that Ruddock may be a draw for young Irish lads who may slip through the cracks.

Yeah_Right

Over the past few days a lot of posters have commented on Leinster struggling to beat giant french packs like La Rochelle and playing against the RSA teams and their giant packs next season will help them in Europe. So I looked at the numbers.
Both packs on Sunday were over 900kg. So neither pack was small. La Rochelle had a bit over 20kg on Leinster or 2.5kg per player. Not a huge difference. With both Skelton and Antonio at 140kg it means the rest of the Leinster players were probably bigger than their counterparts.
The Leinster bench was bigger than the La Rochelle bench.

I think the "monster french pack" thing has been repeated so often that the myth has become the truth without actually being reality. Powerful? Yes. Bigger? Not necessarily.

BoardsMember

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Over the past few days a lot of posters have commented on Leinster struggling to beat giant french packs like La Rochelle and playing against the RSA teams and their giant packs next season will help them in Europe. So I looked at the numbers.
Both packs on Sunday were over 900kg. So neither pack was small. La Rochelle had a bit over 20kg on Leinster or 2.5kg per player. Not a huge difference. With both Skelton and Antonio at 140kg it means the rest of the Leinster players were probably bigger than their counterparts.
The Leinster bench was bigger than the La Rochelle bench.

I think the "monster french pack" thing has been repeated so often that the myth has become the truth without actually being reality. Powerful? Yes. Bigger? Not necessarily.

You can't really discount the fact that they had two massive men that had a massive influence on the game. Due to them being massive. They don't all have to be massive, do they?

The narrative has a basis in fact, their massive men were probably the difference. Maybe that's a slightly different narrative to saying we struggled against each of the players in their pack, I'm not sure anyone was saying that. Incidentally, I read somewhere that there was a 40kg difference in pack weight, but either way, the above stands.