Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

arsebiscuits1

joseywhales wrote: »

I didn't like the nucifora quote where he felt it necessary to mention that furlong had come back from a lengthy injury. Like why? Sounds almost bitter about the negotiation. As an administrator, however he feels, he shouldnt show it, it's not about him.

I think it depends on your level of cynicism.

I read it as an endorsement of Tadgh to come back after a year out as if nothing has changed

Former Former Former

FrannoFan wrote: »

Interesting idea from jackman in the42 about Leinster spending.
We spend a lot to keep that middle tier strong so we go unbeaten for so much of the season. Its what helps us win so many games while international lads are away.

He was just wondering if they spent less on those lads and accept they lose a few games and invest the money in a superstar. Interesting thought. Like trade maloney/bent/fardy/josh murphy for an etzebeth or the like who gets you over the line in europe.
Interesting thought.

It's an interesting thought - but makes you incredibly dependent on that one player. What happens if he gets a long-term injury, like Coetzee did, or Snyman? That's when you need a strong squad to absorb those hits.

dub_skav

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Does this mean the Porter to LH rumours kick back into overdrive?

Lions tighthead Andrew Porter might have a different opinion on that now.

Buer

The Jackman discussion was interesting. The French salary cap is currently set at €11.3m which is a far cry from what Thornley would have us believe, preferring to report the overall costs for the entire organisation which is vastly different. I would imagine the cap is broadly in line with what Leinster are paying overall (inclusive of central deals). Obviously, there are different allowances and contributions from the FFR for homegrown players etc.

I would imagine there are several key differences in how the budgets are utilised which allow the French teams build a first choice 23 which is a lot stronger than their salary cap would suggest.

Firstly, French teams are rarely as impacted by test call ups as the likes of Leinster would be. This allows them smaller squads. Their players are far more available and, as such, they rarely have a match weekend where they're potentially down 10-15 players due to international duty. The average size of a French squad seems to be more in the 38-42 player bracket rather than the 45-48 that the likes of Leinster or Munster would have. That accounts for about €1m, one would assume.

I would also believe that the market price of a southern hemisphere player or an islander would be notably lower than the market price of a European player i.e. an islander or South African player is going to come cheaper than his Irish counterpart. Someone like Botia has been a stand out player in Europe for La Rochelle. He has never played for another team in Europe and joined them when they were in ProD2. I'm sure he's on significantly more money at this point but I also would imagine he's on less than what one would expect for a top inside centre at European level. Guys like Elstadt and Kolbe were signed by Toulouse as uncapped Super Rugby players and both have gone on to be key performers for them and pick up test caps for the Springboks. Obviously, this isn't going to be possible under the IRFU mandated model.

Leinster have a glut of guys who feature regularly for Ireland and I'm sure they negotiate deals accordingly. For instance, how much does it cost Leinster to keep VDF, Connors, Leavy, Conan, Doris and Ruddock on the books? A wedge more than it costs La Rochelle to keep Vito, Gourdon, Liebenberg and Alldrit on the books, I'd imagine.

I would guess that it's this model that allows La Rochelle to make a quick decision and sign someone like Will Skelton when he becomes available unexpectedly. They don't have much more money, they just utilise their budget in a very different way and have the autonomy to do as they wish with it.

Bazzo

Buer wrote: »

The Jackman discussion was interesting.

:eek:

Buer

Bazzo wrote: »

:eek:

I feel so dirty.

Richie_Rich89

FrannoFan wrote: »

Interesting idea from jackman in the42 about Leinster spending.
We spend a lot to keep that middle tier strong so we go unbeaten for so much of the season. Its what helps us win so many games while international lads are away.

He was just wondering if they spent less on those lads and accept they lose a few games and invest the money in a superstar. Interesting thought. Like trade maloney/bent/fardy/josh murphy for an etzebeth or the like who gets you over the line in europe.
Interesting thought.

I would put the largely unbeaten season down to coaching.

Lancaster is better at winning leagues and getting young players up to standard.

Schmidt was better at winning Europe by getting the first XXIII to peak for the really big games, but wasn't quite as good at developing the squad.

joseywhales

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

I think it depends on your level of cynicism.

I read it as an endorsement of Tadgh to come back after a year out as if nothing has changed

When it comes to administration I have extreme levels of cynicism baked in.

Former Former Former

Could be Furlong playing the game too.

Like, he's about to go on a Lions tour and is almost guaranteed to be the starting test TH. All things going to plan, his value post-Lions could be even higher so maybe he thinks he'll be in an even stronger position next year.

I don't think we should always default to the assumption that it's the IRFU being dicks.

thomond2006

Agreed. If the IRFU were messing him around, Furlong like Sexton before him could easily tell them to feck off and go get paid elsewhere.

joseywhales

No I imagine furlong was in control, his first choice was probably a record breaking 3+ year contract with a second choice of something similar to now for one year, so he can try to leverage them next year.

I think nucifora is subtly pointing out that that's all well in theory but he could easily get injured between now and then as he has been before. I'm sure that was something he was using as the main counterpoint in the negotiation. The risk that the irfu take on should be discounted when it comes to salary.

molloyjh

A note on the French salary cap, it excludes players earning under €50k AFAIK. Not sure how many of Leinsters senior squad are under that but if there are a few it could make a bit of a difference really.

thomond2006

molloyjh wrote: »

A note on the French salary cap, it excludes players earning under €50k AFAIK. Not sure how many of Leinsters senior squad are under that but if there are a few it could make a bit of a difference really.

Open to correction, but I doubt many are under 50k.

Those under 50k in France would be exclusively espoirs I'd say.

awec

Would be surprised if anyone on a senior contract at any province was on less than 50k.

sydthebeat

id imagine the minimum senior contract is the 110K that the IFRU cover

arsebiscuits1

If I'm not mistaken the development contract for Leinster which is the standard contract offered to players straight out of the Academy is in the region of 40/45k

I think people are overestimating how much some players earn.

The more senior players who don't/rarely feature at international level I wouldn't say are on huge money.

awec

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken the development contract for Leinster which is the standard contract offered to players straight out of the Academy is in the region of 40/45k

I think people are overestimating how much some players earn.

The more senior players who don't/rarely feature at international level I wouldn't say are on huge money.

It may be 40/50k in cash but there are definitely numerous benefits in kind that bring the true value of their contracts well over this figure.

IMO there is no way any player on a senior contract at any province is not earning a 6 figure salary. Even the bang average squad players.

molloyjh

Yeah, guys out of the Academy on their first senior contract aren't on €50k. There are potentially 8 or 9 guys in that category in a squad of about 45. So that would leave another 36 or 37 that would fit into the French salary cap system. That would require require average salary of around 300k a year to get to the 11.3 million. But guys like Frawley or Adam Byrne or even ROL wouldn't be close to that you'd have to think. I don't know if we'd reach the 11.3 million or not, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if we were short of it by a bit. Sexton isn't on what he was given his injury profile and age. The only truly big earners at this stage would be Furlong, Ryan, Henshaw, Ringrose and maybe Porter and Lowe. And how any of them exceed the 500k mark I wonder?

awec

You think the likes of Frawley and ROL are playing for sub-50k?

No chance whatsoever, unless I'm picking you up wrong.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

It may be 40/50k in cash but there are definitely numerous benefits in kind that bring the true value of their contracts well over this figure.

Which would be the same in France. We're comparing salaries though so that's somewhat irrelevant.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

You think the likes of Frawley and ROL are playing for sub-50k?

No chance whatsoever, unless I'm picking you up wrong.

No. I'm saying that they are over 50k but nowhere near 300k.

arsebiscuits1

awec wrote: »

You think the likes of Frawley and ROL are playing for sub-50k?

No chance whatsoever, unless I'm picking you up wrong.

Frawley probably was as he was signed straight out of the academy onto a dev deal. As was Penny. As was Keenan. All of these contracts would be for significantly less than 100k. At least the bill Leinster are footing.

There are likely endorsements and bonuses that supplement it. Especially Keenan with international match fees and what comes with that,

Their renewals (did Frawley renew yet?) will be for significantly more. Again, especially Keenan.

Dubinusa

50k seems awfully crap for pro athletes! I don't think that's likely. I can't see lads going through the academy and then being rewarded with salaries that low.

Quin_Dub

awec wrote: »

You think the likes of Frawley and ROL are playing for sub-50k?

No chance whatsoever, unless I'm picking you up wrong.

molloyjh wrote: »

No. I'm saying that they are over 50k but nowhere near 300k.

I would imagine that a player in that kind of category - i.e. Not on a development contract , not an International etc. would be on 60-70k with appearance and bonus money on top.

They might also be making money and other benefits elsewhere via endorsements and so on.

Decent Salary for a guy in their mid to late 20's for sure, especially to do something you love but not "retire at 35" money by any stretch either.

arsebiscuits1

Dubinusa wrote: »

50k seems awfully crap for pro athletes! I don't think that's likely. I can't see lads going through the academy and then being rewarded with salaries that low.

Being a pro athlete is a privilege.

They're rewarded with a chance to get paid to play sport

FrannoFan

Dubinusa wrote: »

50k seems awfully crap for pro athletes! I don't think that's likely. I can't see lads going through the academy and then being rewarded with salaries that low.

I think I read a figure like that as well and had the same thought but I think that's what it is.

You'd imagine it's got hefty appearance fees attached. So if a lad doesn't kick on post academy it doesn't cost you and if he does he gets rewarded.

The money isn't amazing considering what they go through.

molloyjh

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I would imagine that a player in that kind of category - i.e. Not on a development contract , not an International etc. would be on 60-70k with appearance and bonus money on top.

They might also be making money and other benefits elsewhere via endorsements and so on.

Decent Salary for a guy in their mid to late 20's for sure, especially to do something you love but not "retire at 35" money by any stretch either.

Exactly. I haven't looked in any detail at the squad but I'd say there's a few guys in that bracket. Let's say their total salaried earnings is around 100k. If you have several guys in the squad at that level then its about 30 guys needed to make up the remaining 10.5 million. That's somewhere between 350k and 400k average for those 30. But again, you'd have guys like Cronin, Dooley etc on well below that, further driving the average up for the remaining players.

molloyjh

Dubinusa wrote: »

50k seems awfully crap for pro athletes! I don't think that's likely. I can't see lads going through the academy and then being rewarded with salaries that low.

40k for a 20/21 year old kid with the potential to massively increase that in a short period is not to be sniffed at. Add in match fees etc as other have pointed out and it's not that crazy at all.

Squidgy Black

Ulster at home, Glasgow away, and then Dragons at home for the final 3 rounds of the rainbow cup

Squidgy Black

molloyjh wrote: »

40k for a 20/21 year old kid with the potential to massively increase that in a short period is not to be sniffed at. Add in match fees etc as other have pointed out and it's not that crazy at all.

And sponsorship (players get sponsored cars etc), as well as a lot of them getting brand deals from companies.