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Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

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    #2222
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,656 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    awec wrote: »
    The gap from Porter to Moore is not significant.

    the gap between Moore and everything is narrow


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    #2223
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,586 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I think O'Toole is viewed as a future international player. I think Moore is a better stop gap option.
    Ireland would be shagged if John Ryan or Bealham are coming off the bench.
    Then there's hopefully another future option with Aungier. Salanoa can't get past Archer, so he's nowhere near a look in and the same goes for Knox. I think from a Leinster pov, Clarkson has got a long way to go. He will be brought along slowly and I think he may be a little undersized.


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    #2224
    Bazzo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    Dubinusa wrote: »
    I think O'Toole is viewed as a future international player. I think Moore is a better stop gap option.
    Ireland would be shagged if John Ryan or Bealham are coming off the bench.
    Then there's hopefully another future option with Aungier. Salanoa can't get past Archer, so he's nowhere near a look in and the same goes for Knox. I think from a Leinster pov, Clarkson has got a long way to go. He will be brought along slowly and I think he may be a little undersized.

    That would be Ryan and Bealham who have featured off the bench in wins against the all blacks and in quite a few six nations wins already?


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    #2225
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,586 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Both of whom are not top level players. Ryan is getting on and frequently benches behind Archer. Bealham is a good player but, I think Moore is better.


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    #2226
    Bazzo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    Dubinusa wrote: »
    Both of whom are not top level players. Ryan is getting on and frequently benches behind Archer. Bealham is a good player but, I think Moore is better.

    So is it "Ireland are shagged" or not? They're clearly not shagged when they've managed just fine with them in the past.

    You might rate Moore as better but successive international coaches haven't. Or at least have seen something about him that kept him out of camps (2 guesses)


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    #2227
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,497 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Dubinusa wrote: »
    Both of whom are not top level players. Ryan is getting on and frequently benches behind Archer. Bealham is a good player but, I think Moore is better.

    Never understood why Bealham gets **** on so much. He's a quality player, and a solid option internationally.


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    #2228
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,952 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    I dunno, he was just selected as a Lions tighthead. Tightheads also earn more, on a practical level. I don't see why he would do it.

    People on central contracts earn more than people on provincial contracts. If Porter switches to LH, he becomes Irelands 1st choice and gets a central contract.


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    #2229
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Why are people talking about development at TH when we have a bunch of other positions are far more in need?


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    #2230
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,586 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Yea Ireland managed just fine with Bealham and Ryan! Moore was picked regularly when Schmidt was in charge. He wasn't selected when he left. If he had stayed, Porter would be a loose head, Ryan and Bealham would have been fringe players, imo.


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    #2231
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,474 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Bazzo wrote: »
    So is it "Ireland are shagged" or not? They're clearly not shagged when they've managed just fine with them in the past.

    You might rate Moore as better but successive international coaches haven't. Or at least have seen something about him that kept him out of camps (2 guesses)

    Ireland managed just fine with Marty Moore in the past too. The bar has been set really high by Furlong and Porter, the Munster guys need time to bed in, O'Toole has the best chance to force his way past Bealham for the third TH spot.


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    #2232
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,647 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    pickarooney wrote: »
    Ireland managed just fine with Marty Moore in the past too. The bar has been set really high by Furlong and Porter, the Munster guys need time to bed in, O'Toole has the best chance to force his way past Bealham for the third TH spot.

    Moore is not the same player he was when he was capped.

    He's not capable of lasting more than about 50 minutes at Club level with his current fitness levels , so he'd barely make a full half of International standard rugby.

    The raw materials are there , but he would require huge improvements in fitness and mobility to be a viable International option at present.

    O'Toole is a very good rugby player , but his scrummaging just is not there at the highest levels.

    He is more than up to the required standard in general play , but the risk of an opposition Prop completely crumpling him at scrum time is just too great right now..

    So - either Moore sheds 10-15Kgs and gets his stamina/mobility up or O'Toole gains 5kgs+ and improves his scrummaging technique considerably.

    If you could merge the best bits of both you'd have a serious operator.


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    #2233
    arsebiscuits1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,673 ✭✭✭arsebiscuits1


    Fitness has perennially been Moores issue.

    He got surgery at the end of the 14-15 season and was meant to be fit for the RWC warm up games.

    He mismanaged his rehab and his conditioning and was nowhere near in the shape he was meant to be for RWC selection.

    A firm dressing down was issued and probably the catalyst for him leaving for Wasps


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    #2234
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 9,002 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Quin_Dub wrote: »
    Moore is not the same player he was when he was capped.

    He's not capable of lasting more than about 50 minutes at Club level with his current fitness levels , so he'd barely make a full half of International standard rugby.

    The raw materials are there , but he would require huge improvements in fitness and mobility to be a viable International option at present.

    O'Toole is a very good rugby player , but his scrummaging just is not there at the highest levels.

    He is more than up to the required standard in general play , but the risk of an opposition Prop completely crumpling him at scrum time is just too great right now..

    So - either Moore sheds 10-15Kgs and gets his stamina/mobility up or O'Toole gains 5kgs+ and improves his scrummaging technique considerably.

    If you could merge the best bits of both you'd have a serious operator.
    There was a day when both Moore and Jack McGrath both looked brilliant.
    What happened?


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    #2235
    arsebiscuits1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,673 ✭✭✭arsebiscuits1


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    There was a day when both Moore and Jack McGrath both looked brilliant.
    What happened?

    Jack McGrath was a test Lion and an integral part of Ireland and Leinsters 2018 season.

    He'd been managing a hip injury for a long time that's culminated in recent surgery


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    #2236
    Sangre
    Registered Users Posts: 12,169 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    arsebiscuits1 wrote: »
    Jack McGrath was a test Lion and an integral part of Ireland and Leinsters 2018 season.

    He'd been managing a hip injury for a long time that's culminated in recent surgery

    its quite interesting tracking his progress on instagram. He showed how bad his hip mobility was pre-surgery. Quite shocking that could he could manage like that, particularly as a prop which requires a huge amount of hip strength. Hopefully he'll come out stronger on the other side.


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    #2237
    Juventu4
    Registered Users Posts: 116 ✭✭Juventu4


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    There was a day when both Moore and Jack McGrath both looked brilliant.
    What happened?

    Moore is still a great scrummager but his fitness and conditioning are awful for a professional at 30. He needs to work on his S&C. Remember when he was at leinster he was good at set piece and could turn over ball on the deck and then went to Wasps and was well out of shape.

    As for McGrath as others gave said hip surgery and hasn't come back the same player. Work with a guy who had that surgery who was fit ex Army but took him months to even get down to do a squat position, had to buy a jeep as it was easier to get in and out from, so imagine a 120kg prop getting back to peak professional level.


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    #2238
    arsebiscuits1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,673 ✭✭✭arsebiscuits1


    Sangre wrote: »
    its quite interesting tracking his progress on instagram. He showed how bad his hip mobility was pre-surgery. Quite shocking that could he could manage like that, particularly as a prop which requires a huge amount of hip strength. Hopefully he'll come out stronger on the other side.

    I was gobsmacked at how limited he said his hip mobility was.

    The poor fella must have been in agony for years


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    #2239
    MaybeMaybe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭MaybeMaybe


    arsebiscuits1 wrote: »
    I was gobsmacked at how limited he said his hip mobility was.

    The poor fella must have been in agony for years

    do you have a link to that post on instagram?


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    #2240
    arsebiscuits1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,673 ✭✭✭arsebiscuits1


    MaybeMaybe wrote: »
    do you have a link to that post on instagram?

    https://www.instagram.com/p/COJP99OHDqw/?utm_medium=copy_link


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    #2241
    ongarite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,260 ✭✭✭ongarite


    arsebiscuits1 wrote: »
    https://www.instagram.com/p/COJP99OHDqw/?utm_medium=copy_link

    There is another video of him moving his leg out to the side while lying down and he said he hadn't been able to do that for a long time.


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    #2242
    dregin
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 6,524 Mod ✭✭✭✭dregin


    ongarite wrote: »
    There is another video of him moving his leg out to the side while lying down and he said he hadn't been able to do that for a long time.

    This one https://www.instagram.com/p/CONZ_B3HmQI/


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    #2243
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,701 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    Yeah in a couple of his posts he was saying he could only bend his knee about 30 degrees and could only spread his legs about a foot out from standing straight.

    Would imagine that'd be extremely restrictive in terms of performance.


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    #2244
    Rigor Mortis
    Registered Users Posts: 2,914 ✭✭✭Rigor Mortis


    Squidgy Black wrote: »

    Would imagine that'd be extremely restrictive in terms of performance.

    Not good for his rugby either.


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    #2245
    Exclamation Marc
    Registered Users Posts: 12,050 ✭✭✭✭Exclamation Marc


    10 years ago today: Johnny Sexton inspires Leinster’s Northampton comeback. Christ, how time flies...

    https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/10-years-ago-today-johnny-sexton-inspires-leinster-s-northampton-comeback-1.4571334


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    #2246
    clsmooth
    Registered Users Posts: 3,701 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    Squidgy Black wrote: »
    Yeah in a couple of his posts he was saying he could only bend his knee about 30 degrees and could only spread his legs about a foot out from standing straight.

    Would imagine that'd be extremely restrictive in terms of performance.

    Crazy. I wonder why they didn’t try and sort it out sooner if he’s been playing like that for the last few years


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    #2247
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 24,212 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Boll1x to Toulouse anyway.


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    #2248
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,497 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Hard not to think Leinster could've turned over that Toulouse team. Massive missed opportunity again.


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    #2249
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,952 ✭✭✭TRC10


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Hard not to think Leinster could've turned over that Toulouse team. Massive missed opportunity again.

    I don't mean to be pessimistic but I can't agree. I think we're a fair bit off right now.

    I think our front 5 would get completely overun by Toulouse. Baille, Faumoina, the 2 Arnolds and Tekori (and that's with Marchand suspended). Healy and Toner really are on their last legs and i seriously doubt they'd be able to put it up to that lot. A part of me is glad we didn't have to see Kolbe up against James Lowe, I think that could have been ugly.

    I think Porter moving back to LH will help a lot, and with Alaalatoa coming in we have a good 80mins at TH. Baird and Ryan as a 2nd row pairing I'm not so sure about. Baird has shown he has a bit to go in terms of development, and it's a small enough pairing compared to Toulouse and LAR's 2nd rows. We're crying out for a Thorn/Hines type player, but with 2 NIE locks at Munster and 1 at Ulster there's no chance of that happening.


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    #2250
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    I'd agree with the above in large part aside from how easily people are dismissing Healy. Toulouse had real problems at the scrum for the opening stages. Healy really dealt with Atonio and Skelton superbly. He popped Atonio on the opening scrum and I think Leinster only conceded one penalty there that was on Furlong.


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    #2251
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,952 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Buer wrote: »
    I'd agree with the above in large part aside from how easily people are dismissing Healy. Toulouse had real problems at the scrum for the opening stages. Healy really dealt with Atonio and Skelton superbly. He popped Atonio on the opening scrum and I think Leinster only conceded one penalty there that was on Furlong.

    I mean more in open play. I agree that Healy is still a solid operator in the scrum. But he offers very little in the collision and often gets smashed behind the gainline. He's nowhere near as explosive as he once was and what was once a great strength of his has now become a weakness in his game.


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