Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121742623#Comment_121742623

By their own admission, his role is broader than you’re claiming it is here. You could get any ref anywhere to do the relatively simple task you’re claiming they’ve hired him for, the reason you go and get a guy like Peyper is for his relationships and perspective on current refs.

I’m not claiming he’s going to be slipping brown envelopes to referees before games or anything - I’m saying he’s been hired to be the squad’s liaison to the referees, and IMO it’s inappropriate that he can step down as a referee and immediately step into that role.

The notion that the South Africans should be above all suspicion or that they wouldn’t do something to try and eke out an advantage is nothing short of naïveté.

During the 2021 Lions tour one of the charges against Erasmus was he threatened the officiating team that if they didn’t facilitate a meeting with him he would release a video, which of course he subsequently did.

Eramsus was accused (with charges upheld) of threatening Nic Berry to surreptitiously meet with him, and during that process Erasmus “recruited Jaco Peyper to try to arrange a meeting with Berry”.

That’s right there in black and white in the World Rugby decision on the 2021 matter.

Have a read of this, and specifically scroll down to points 41 and 42 of the Chronology (page 64) on Peyper’s influence peddling role in that affair.

https://resources.world.rugby/worldrugby/document/2021/11/17/130c3d18-1cb1-4041-8faf-9db44c15572a/211117-Judicial-Cte-Full-Decision-Misconduct-Erasmus-SARU-Final-.pdf

Burkie1203

One of the Botha videos showed POM was at a strange angle too. I dont think that helps when you compare to how the French flankers positioned themselves.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743173#Comment_121743173

You could get any ref anywhere to do the relatively simple task you’re claiming they’ve hired him for, the reason you go and get a guy like Peyper is for his relationships and perspective on current refs.

The reason you go for a guy like Peyper is because of his perspective on what laws and implementations World Rugby are currently looking for. "Any ref anywhere" can't give you that.

The notion that the South Africans should be above all suspicion or that they wouldn’t do something to try and eke out an advantage is nothing short of naïveté.

You can keep calling people naïve, but nobody has argued SA should be above suspicion.

The point is, even if they do want to use Peyper in the means you're suggesting, I'm not remotely convinced the ref's themselves will be open / receptive to it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743278#Comment_121743278

Yeah, I haven't disputed the latter point, in fact I've explicitly said as much a few times.

You're the one who turned this in something grander with a overly precious response to my initial post and subsequent posts claiming I was besmirching all referees. That isn't what I'm doing here.

I suggested, from the outset, that SA had hired Jaco Peyper to act as a liaison to his former colleagues, and that the reason they'd hired him is specifically because he has greater access than simply hiring a ref off the street.

It's hardly an outlandish claim because South Africa have done exactly this in the past - they used Peyper as an intermediary to try to get to Nic Berry in 2021, and in that process Peyper effectively was carrying messages from Erasmus to the match refereeing team. He's now officially part of their coaching team, with a specific role designed to "will be able to take any concern of Erasmus and the Boks to the governing body’s match officials panel before and after matches, knowing which channels to work through directly."

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743346#Comment_121743346

overly precious response 

Sigh. Presumably all the other posters disagreeing with you are overly precious too...

It's hardly an outlandish claim

Again. Nobody has suggested it is an outlandish claim that SA may want to try use Peyper as you're suggesting. I don't know how to make that any clearer. The point people have been making is....

they used Peyper as an intermediary to try to get to Nic Berry

I've highlighted the important word. I don't see it working with any of the ref's. I'd trust in their integrity. You seem to agree, so where's the issue?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743385#Comment_121743385

I've highlighted the important word. I don't see it working with any of the ref's. I'd trust in their integrity.

It worked in that instance too - Erasmus did succeed in reaching out to Peyper, who did reach out to Berry on his behalf. Peyper recommended to Berry that he engage with Erasmus' video clips and respond to them, which Berry subsequently did.

So it absolutely worked in that instance.

It would appear as though you weren't aware of any of this when you claimed in your original mail that I was being "pretty unreasonable" and "pretty unfair" when suggesting this sort of stuff happens.

The only reason it emerged in the public domain in this instance was because Erasmus released the subsequent video, which led to the disciplinary process, but when you look at the casual tone of the messages etc, I don't think it's remotely unreasonable to assume virtually all coaching tickets engage with referees to try to change their views on specific parts of their team's or the opposition's performance. Coaches comment on this publicly all the time.

This is the reason they've hired Jaco Peyper.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743410#Comment_121743410

You're moving the goalposts here. This was your original claim:

is it unreasonable to assume he'll be liaising with some of his former colleagues to re-align perceptions or try and change opinions on areas where the Springboks feel they're being hard done by?

Is there any evidence it worked to change Nic Berry's opinion or re-align his perceptions of how he called things? I don't think there is. So I don't see how you can claim it worked.

I don't think it's remotely unreasonable to assume virtually all coaching tickets engage with referees to try to change their views on specific parts of their team's or the opposition's performance. 

Again. Nobody has said it's remotely unreasonably that they would try. Try.

sydthebeat

Huge difference between a currently referee on the world rugby panel taking to another current referee outside of "official" channels, as compared to a retired referee no longer in the world rugby panel talking to a current referee.

HUGE difference, which would call into question the professionalism of the current referee.

Your account of the phone call is also incorrect. It was BERRY who reached out to jaco to resolve the issue.

Following berry reaching out to Jaco for advice, it was Jacos advice for Berry to engage with SA management, as a lot of referees do anyway these days.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743421#Comment_121743421

It's obviously an impossible thing to prove - but it is worth noting that the South Africans managed to turn that series around from an opening test defeat, and

It was the same trio who shared the refereeing duties across the three tests then because of COVID, so Erasmus was absolutely trying to change the way they refereed his team.

In the first test (Lions win 22-17), the penalty count was SA 14 Lions 8.

By the second test, (SA win 27-9), the penalty count flipped and was SA 10 Lions 15. On the match review of the second test, a Guardian report notes "the big calls didn't go the Lions' way". The crucial try, by Lukhanyo Am was incredibly controversial (he didn't get his hands on it), was described in reporting as a "very marginal call" with Nigel Owens publicly saying the try shouldn't have been given. There was also a hugely significant decision not to send off Cheslin Kolbe for taking out Conor Murray in the air, and a disallowed try for Robbie Henshaw. Kolbe also got away with another blatant head high hit on Tom Curry early in the game too.

In the third and decisive test (SA win 19-16), the count was SA 12 Lions 15. There were less visibly contentious incidents in this one, but there was still a big reversal from the first test around scrum perception and a couple of other issues.

It's absolutely reasonable to speculate that the pressure Erasmus put on the refereeing team (and this was speculated by multiple commentators at the time) had influenced them in this series. For Erasmus and the SA press, the ends justified the means in that they won the series.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743502#Comment_121743502

It's absolutely reasonable to speculate

I entirely agree it's speculation.

But again, that was all thru normal, official channels, and not the channels you were suggesting.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743517#Comment_121743517

It wasn't through normal channels.

There was nothing normal or ordinary about Rassie calling Jaco Peyper (who wasn't part of the 4 person refereeing team for the first test in 2021) and asking him to speak to Nic Berry on his behalf.

Erasmus initially was trying to pressure Peyper (and did the same with SA ref AJ Jacobs) to comment publicly on the refereeing in the first test (and the clips Erasmus had highlighted), which Peyper refused to do. Peyper told Nic Berry "Rassie is putting AJ Jacobs under pressure to comment on the clips...".

Peyper did reach out to Berry though, and suggest to him he respond to Erasmus' clips.

Peyper subsequently lied about the contents of the call with Berry - the disciplinary panel said "We considered with care the evidence of Jacob Peyper.", and then subsequently said "We do not need to resolve that dispute between refereeing colleagues...there is ample evidence, which we accept, which supports Mr Berry's claim".

None of this could be described as normal channels, it was Peyper attempting to use his refereeing relationship with Nic Berry to influence him, and effectively doing Rassie's bidding.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743469#Comment_121743469

Your account of the phone call is also incorrect. It was BERRY who reached out to jaco to resolve the issue.

This is not the case - the first interaction between the two was a WhatsApp message from Jaco Peyper to Nic Berry on July 25th at 19:48, saying "Can I give you a quick call?"

This came after Erasmus asked Peyper to do this - this isn't in dispute anywhere in the evidence.

Read the actual link to the decision I provided above as opposed to the Rugbypass article on this, it's laid out really clearly in Appendix 2, the Chronology.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743574#Comment_121743574

Ok, I'll re-phrase that. To clarify. Peyper, as a WR ref talking to another ref, even in non-official channels, I don't think would be out of the ordinary.

But Peyper, as a Springbok employee, doing it is very different. And I don't think any of the ref's would entertain it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743625#Comment_121743625

It absolutely is out of the ordinary. What role is Jaco Peyper playing in that process in 2021?

He wasn't involved in the game in question, but he has the Springbok DoR calling him up and asking him to speak to the refereeing team who had reffed the first test (and would be doing the two subsequent tests) on his behalf.

The whole goal here from Erasmus was trying to highlight areas where he felt the refereeing team had been overly harsh against the Springboks on, or not harsh enough against the Lions on, something which you seem to be repeatedly losing sight of.

Is it appropriate that Peyper took that call from Erasmus and then reached out to Berry on his behalf?

Is it remotely reasonable to conclude that this is exactly the sort of back door shenanigans that the Springboks engage in, and therefore that this might be exactly one of the reasons why they've now appointed Peyper to their coaching ticket? It absolutely is.

Jesus Christ

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743656#Comment_121743656

The situations are different.

Berry reached out to Jaco, who was then a WR ref.

What you're suggesting is that now Jaco, as a SA employee, will reach out to the likes of Berry.

The optics are completely different. And I'd trust in the integrity and judgement of the refs to not entertain it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743708#Comment_121743708

The sort of well reasoned and valuable contribution we regularly see around here.

A post like this from me would result in me getting a mod warning.

@sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743711#Comment_121743711

No - this isn't the case. Don't know if you're being disingenuous here or just not reading what is in the thread above, but your central contention here is absolutely grounded on a wrong fact.

@sydthebeat claims above that Nic Berry contacted Jaco Peyper, but it's wrong. The timeline from the World Rugby decision on this is crystal clear, it clearly states that Peyper reached out to Berry first via text asking him to speak, and that he did so at Erasmus' behest.

Yeah, I'm absolutely suggesting Peyper as a SA coach will reach out to refs. It happened multiple times during that engagement (both Felix Jones and Jacques Nienaber reached out to Berry too), and presumably happens relatively regularly.

What's to stop the IRFU using Andy Brace reaching out to another referee? Brace is a regular at Ireland training

aloooof

overly previous, naive and disingenuous.

I'm out.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743821#Comment_121743821

Not the first time "you're out" when you're completely proven to be incorrect.

Ciaran

When is Jaco Peyper starting with Leinster?

Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3

fun thread...back to leinster please

looking forward to seeing more of Usanov, Spicer, Corrigan, Coffey, Murphy, De Klerk and McLaughlin tonight.. and the first appearance for Smyth.

all very likely to make the academy, but the younger lads may have to wait until next season.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743741#Comment_121743741

Nothing.

I don't know why this is suddenly such a thing just cause SA are doing it. They aren't even the first.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743928#Comment_121743928

Something I should have clarified earlier is that my initial post on this topic was informed by the fact that I had specifically read the detail of the Erasmus disciplinary hearing from 2021, and thought Peyper's role in that was unacceptable. It absolutely baffled me at the time why he wasn't asked to account for the role he played in that process, or asked to explain what level of ongoing contact he had with the Springbok coaching ticket.

I genuinely think though from the reactions of some of you here that you weren't aware of that detail until I linked to it here.

it is an absolutely fair and truthful statement to say Rassie Erasmus has attempted previously to improperly use Jaco Peyper to leverage his refereeing relationships to try and influence officials who are involved in Springbok games.

It's not a stretch to assume that when he is now putting Peyper on the payroll that he will continue to attempt to use him in this manner.

pickarooney

What has any of this to do with Leinster?

Any injury updates on Ngatai or Osbourne?

Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744162#Comment_121744162

no official injury update until Monday.

Ross Byrne is back training apparently, wouldnt be surprised if Osborne was too. Ngatai I would.

jonok28

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743877#Comment_121743877

He's a bit raw but Alan Spicer is a big boy! At least 6"10 and 20 Stone at 18! He has really good work rate and if he stays injury free could be a massive players for Leinster in the future.

arsebiscuits1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743831#Comment_121743831

But only after earnestly debating ad nauseam for several pages.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes etc....

Interested Observer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744349#Comment_121744349

On something that is completely and utterly off-topic and irrelevant to the Leinster thread.