Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

PMC83

dregin wrote: »

Cian Kelleher gone to Ealing.

https://twitter.com/ealingtfrugby/status/1398308085526106112

Ah jaziz. I'd say the sportsground isn't looking so bad now

theVersatile

pickarooney wrote: »

Not if they enforce the rules about not running into a ruck and ensuring players bind before pushing. They did it for scrums after years of props smashing heads on the engage, it's about time they followed up in the ruck.

Hands are not allowed in the ruck but rucks were basically abolished, replaced with the breakdown and then back into existence within six months. Hands are only allowed when there's no support player in place and (legally) only after the carrier has placed. Defenders need to step over and a) take the ball if there's no support or b) ruck the support player out by binding and pushing. More wrestling/judo and less MMA and we should see player welfare increase.

With regards to binding, that's essentially the same as wrapping.

Binding: Grasping another player’s body firmly between the shoulders and the hips
with the whole arm in contact from hand to shoulder (from Definitions section of the Laws of the Game).

This is already enforced - players can't enter into rucks with tucked arms leading with the shoulder. There must be an attempted wrap. An egregious example is POM V Wales. Even in the last Munster v Leinster game, JOD was penalised for one on Ed Byrne, even though it was very close to your traditional old school classic counter ruck.

As for not running into the ruck, there is a law under Law 9 Foul Play in the Dangerous Play subsection which prevents players from "charging" into a ruck, but its weirdly worded in that it associates charging with not binding as per above. So that's very grey as to whether it bans running into a ruck from a distance - mind taken literally its hard to see it being interpreted otherwise.

Quick edit: I also find it interesting that the head over hips law is supposed to be penalised with a free kick, rather than a penalty.

AbusesToilets

theVersatile wrote: »

With regards to binding, that's essentially the same as wrapping.

Binding: Grasping another player’s body firmly between the shoulders and the hips
with the whole arm in contact from hand to shoulder (from Definitions section of the Laws of the Game).

This is already enforced - players can't enter into rucks with tucked arms leading with the shoulder. There must be an attempted wrap. An egregious example is POM V Wales. Even in the last Munster v Leinster game, JOD was penalised for one on Ed Byrne, even though it was very close to your traditional old school classic counter ruck.

As for not running into the ruck, there is a law under Law 9 Foul Play in the Dangerous Play subsection which prevents players from "charging" into a ruck, but its weirdly worded in that it associates charging with not binding as per above. So that's very grey as to whether it bans running into a ruck from a distance - mind taken literally its hard to see it being interpreted otherwise.

Quick edit: I also find it interesting that the head over hips law is supposed to be penalised with a free kick, rather than a penalty.

It seems a curious blind spot for WR currently, in that they have rightly taken dynamic steps to curtail the dangers of high tackles, yet comparitively little around the ruck.

swiwi_

Buer wrote: »

Whenever you hear a referee whistle against a Leinster opponent prop, he's just earned his wings.

And when that prop was John Hayes, well red bull gave you wings.

Faugheen

Ronan Kelleher and Josh VDF named in the Champions Cup team of the season.

salmocab

Faugheen wrote: »

Ronan Kelleher and Josh VDF named in the Champions Cup team of the season.

I wonder at the start of the year how many would have guessed at that pair as Leinster’s representatives.

Faugheen

It’ll be grand. The next international window will come around and they’ll be written off again.

theVersatile

I still don't get where this "JVDF was written off" narrative came from - I think everyone acknowledges that JVDF is a very strong player in a position which is surprisingly stacked

Faugheen

theVersatile wrote: »

I still don't get where this "JVDF was written off" narrative came from - I think everyone acknowledges that JVDF is a very strong player in a position which is surprisingly stacked

There always had to be reason though. First it was ‘all he does is tackle’, then ‘he’s not strong enough getting over the ball’ then it was ‘he’s not a good enough carrier’.

The narrative is there because there were always a cohort here trying to write him off. Then he’ll have one quiet game and it will go into overdrive.

Irish sports fans (not just rugby) are very, very fickle.

Dubinusa

I think VDF is the best openside in the country. The competition is really insane and the other lads are very good also.

aloooof

Faugheen wrote: »

There always had to be reason though. First it was ‘all he does is tackle’, then ‘he’s not strong enough getting over the ball’ then it was ‘he’s not a good enough carrier’.

The narrative is there because there were always a cohort here trying to write him off. Then he’ll have one quiet game and it will go into overdrive.

Irish sports fans (not just rugby) are very, very fickle.

Maybe the reason was he was going thru a poor spell of form? That can be the case and people can comment on that without it meaning they are "writing him off".

Faugheen

aloooof wrote: »

Maybe the reason was he was going thru a poor spell of form? That can be the case and people can comment on that without it meaning they are "writing him off".

I can’t remember a time where he was going through a poor spell of form. The World Cup maybe.

He would have an off-day here and there alright but no more than any other players.

aloooof

Faugheen wrote: »

I can’t remember a time where he was going through a poor spell of form. The World Cup maybe.

He would have an off-day here and there alright but no more than any other players.

The ANC. He was pretty ineffective, particularly in games where we had a majority of possession. He’s bounced back since then, to his credit.

Buer

Faugheen wrote: »

There always had to be reason though. First it was ‘all he does is tackle’, then ‘he’s not strong enough getting over the ball’ then it was ‘he’s not a good enough carrier’.

The narrative is there because there were always a cohort here trying to write him off. Then he’ll have one quiet game and it will go into overdrive.

Irish sports fans (not just rugby) are very, very fickle.

Some of those criticisms were entirely legitimate. VDF has clearly worked hard on his carrying in particular and his breakdown work has improved significantly also this season.

It was reported a number of times that his carrying was something he was told to work on.

His timing onto the ball in carries was always brilliant but he was never hitting contact as aggressively as he has been in the last few months. He wasn't someone that only tackled and had more subtle touches to his game but it's fair to say he has become a far more rounded player this season.

Buer

Dubinusa wrote: »

I think VDF is the best openside in the country. The competition is really insane and the other lads are very good also.

I'm not sure it really is insane. There's VDF and Connors. There are plenty of other good players but none thst really are close to them. Penny has never started a European game and his size is likely to always count against him. Leavy will be doing well to be the same player he was (and he was genuinely the best of the lot comfortably, for me). POM is a blindside covering openside at times. Murphy is a workhorse openside who doesn't have the big impacts he had once upon a time.

Lots of really good option owing to the fact that we produce a lot of guys who fit the mould of an openside, physically. But I don't think we have too many top notch options. If 2018 Leavy or 2011-2017 SOB were around, they'd be straight into the Irish team for me.

Dubinusa

POM, VDF, Connors and Nordi is a deep pool. Figure Leavy if he ever recovers and the boy wonder, Penny. A huge amount of talent.

Clegg

POM had a bit of a resurgence in the Autumn Cup, but let himself down massively with his suspension in the Six Nations. The only important game he played after that was against Leinster in the Pro 12 final where he was poor.

He'll be a part of squads for a while yet as he's obviously one of the leaders on and off the pitch. But I don't think he should be starting many games for Ireland. At least not at 7.

We've a bit of an issue developing in the backrow now. We've a lot of good players who are test quality, but we're lacking a genuine top 3 for his position in the world sort of player like we had with Ferris, SOB and Heaslip and when POM was younger. Doris could be that player if he can remain injury free.

Buer

Dubinusa wrote: »

POM, VDF, Connors and Nordi is a deep pool. Figure Leavy if he ever recovers and the boy wonder, Penny. A huge amount of talent.

If we were playing South Africa tomorrow, how many of those would you be 100% comfortable with starting at openside? I think facing the best in the world is the acid test of top quality depth.

I'd have question marks over all of them but would be largely comfortable with VDF or Connors only. At 8, we'd have Stander, Conan or Doris. That's good depth in a position. I don't think we have anything close to that at openside flanker.

If Leavy, SOB or Wallace were available and close to their peaks now, they'd all be in the Irish side ahead of any of the others. Openside is currently at it's weakest period for about 10-15 years, I think. We've a lot of guys. Not a lot of top level guys though. The fact that no openside was in discussions at all really for a Lions spot says a lot, to my mind.

Former Former Former

I don't think you can use 2018 as a realistic measure for Leavy's true ability.

If you judged everyone else based purely on 2018, Stockdale and Ringrose would be going on the Lions tour and Ryan would be the captain. Everyone was on fire but they all dropped off big time. Fair chance Leavy would have too but he's going up in everyone's estimation simply by not playing. He only got his chance in 2018 because SOB was injured and VDF tore his cruciate in the first match.

I think at least it would be a tight call between him and VDF. Neither are remotely in the SOB class.

Stout Warrior

Think it would be worthwhile Cullen getting in touch with his old teammate Shane Jennings and trying to convince him to pack in his career in real estate. Robin McBryde hasn’t been anything to write home about and has faltered at the lineout this season and against bigger pack in La Rochelle. Jenno will take some convincing to pack in a life he has built for himself since retirement in punditry and property but he is a man who knows the significance of the history at this province and the people in it who run it and he could make an impact by coaching the forwards. Moreover he couldn’t be making more than 120k at real estate and could double that at Leinster. It would take some arm twisting persistence over next few years and reassurance by Cullen but would be a worthwhile pursuit to recruit a legend to help build going forward. And don’t give the he doesn’t want to bull. He wants to he just needs convincing and reassurance. And then there’s Dennis!

molloyjh

Stout Warrior wrote: »

Think it would be worthwhile Cullen getting in touch with his old teammate Shane Jennings and trying to convince him to pack in his career in real estate. Robin McBryde hasn’t been anything to write home about and has faltered at the lineout this season and against bigger pack in La Rochelle. Jenno will take some convincing to pack in a life he has built for himself since retirement in punditry and property but he is a man who knows the significance of the history at this province and the people in it who run it and he could make an impact by coaching the forwards. Moreover he couldn’t be making more than 120k at real estate and could double that at Leinster. It would take some arm twisting persistence over next few years and reassurance by Cullen but would be a worthwhile pursuit to recruit a legend to help build going forward. And don’t give the he doesn’t want to bull. He wants to he just needs convincing and reassurance. And then there’s Dennis!

Hire a coach with no experience and apparently no interest in coaching? Oooookkkkkaaaaayyyyyyyy....

Buer

McBryde has done well. He had a rocky few months when rugby returned but he has clearly identified the issues and addressed them. We now have one of the best scrums in Europe after the Saracens mess. Our line out has been addressed also. In our consecutive games of the Pro14 final and the two European knock outs, Leinster were 28 from 30 out of touch which is a superb return.

The pack were beaten by La Rochelle. There's no shame in that. They were doing it to Toulouse too for long periods. They're a monster pack and people were giving that unit far too little credit ahead of the game.

I'd be far more concerned with our lack of a game breaking threat in the back line. When a team matches us up front, our attack struggles to think its way around an aggressive defence, particularly when Sexton isn't on the field.

Dubinusa

I agree that we don't have a S.O.B or a Ferris! At their peak they were on a different level. But we do have international level opensides. None are world class! But the depth is good.
Conan, Stander and Doris is good depth at 8. Yet, none are near Heaslip's level. None are at Alldrits level either. But they're all international class players, without being eye catching.
We don't produce world class players frequently. My original point is that we're stacked with an international quality list of opensides. I'd be comfortable with any of the lads I mentioned playing the Boks. Remember, S.A we're playing like a horse **** sandwich for a spell before the last world cup. Nobody feared them. But, it's just one opinion.

Dubinusa

I had said previously that Leinster were looking off. For a long while, the team seemed to have dropped a gear or 2. There seems to be a lack of cohesion. Of course, that's judging them on the 2018 team.
Part of this is the international windows, where lads are integrated back into the side. The other reason is age. The core group is older. They are not as good and are on the downside of their careers.
It's tough to get the mix correct. The back ups do a fantastic job while the international lads are away and then when everyone is back, we seem off. But, in key positions, the depth just isn't there. After Healy, there is a big drop off. Byrne and Dooley are good players. But that's it! There isn't a Fardy anymore, he has been a shell of what he was. Toner has declined quickly and Sexton is unreliable. I think Sexton could possibly call it a day soon. RB is a drop off from Sexton.
I think the squad is in a state of overhaul. A changing of the guard. McBryde is working with an aging cast and I think he's done ok. Next season will be interesting. The 1st 23 should look different.

Stout Warrior

We have had striking deficiencies in the forwards all season. McBryde and/or Cullen must bear responsibility for it. For those of you who are sticking up for the forwards and deflecting blame on to the backs - desist. It is you who must look at yourselves.

Planting 4 sets of seconds rows knees on the soil before engage while admirable that it drew praise from Alex Corbisiero is hardly cutting edge technical coaching and brain storming. Subtle changes can and do work in coaching but our scrum was mullered by La Rochelle. It improved since Saracens in September but we look limited up front.

We need someone who can inspire confidence and trust in players that has been at the centre of good things at Leinster. A hands on coach. If we are not as big as our top European opponents we need more than niggle and determination in our performances. Motivate the players so they perform above themselves and don’t feel institutionalised by the systems in place.

Jerry Attrick

Dubinusa wrote: »

I had said previously that Leinster were looking off. For a long while, the team seemed to have dropped a gear or 2. There seems to be a lack of cohesion. Of course, that's judging them on the 2018 team.
Part of this is the international windows, where lads are integrated back into the side. The other reason is age. The core group is older. They are not as good and are on the downside of their careers.
It's tough to get the mix correct. The back ups do a fantastic job while the international lads are away and then when everyone is back, we seem off. But, in key positions, the depth just isn't there. After Healy, there is a big drop off. Byrne and Dooley are good players. But that's it! There isn't a Fardy anymore, he has been a shell of what he was. Toner has declined quickly and Sexton is unreliable. I think Sexton could possibly call it a day soon. RB is a drop off from Sexton.
I think the squad is in a state of overhaul. A changing of the guard. McBryde is working with an aging cast and I think he's done ok. Next season will be interesting. The 1st 23 should look different.

Perhaps that's why Leo only opted for a one year contract extension.

sydthebeat

Leinster won all three of their own scrums against LAR.
also won all 11 lineouts so were 100% for all set pieces.

Where in gods name is this revisionism coming from??? A place of bias I think....

Clegg

What school did McBryde go to?

AbusesToilets

Stout Warrior wrote: »

We have had striking deficiencies in the forwards all season. McBryde and/or Cullen must bear responsibility for it. For those of you who are sticking up for the forwards and deflecting blame on to the backs - desist. It is you who must look at yourselves.

Planting 4 sets of seconds rows knees on the soil before engage while admirable that it drew praise from Alex Corbisiero is hardly cutting edge technical coaching and brain storming. Subtle changes can and do work in coaching but our scrum was mullered by La Rochelle. It improved since Saracens in September but we look limited up front.

We need someone who can inspire confidence and trust in players that has been at the centre of good things at Leinster. A hands on coach. If we are not as big as our top European opponents we need more than niggle and determination in our performances. Motivate the players so they perform above themselves and don’t feel institutionalised by the systems in place.

We were not mullered in the scrum vs La Rochelle. Healy was having their TH on toast, popped him up a number of times.

Dubinusa

Does everyone agree that Leinster have not looked like they're fluid? Just curious. Is there any of you who believe that Leinster are lacking a killer instinct, playing quality opposition?