Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

ulsteru20s · 07-05-2024 4:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107742#Comment_122107742

Leinster fans think having almost exclusive access to an elite private school system that they spend zero euros on, and then losing basically only players they specifically don't want is some kind of burden.

Podge_irl · 07-05-2024 4:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107841#Comment_122107841

Yeah, but you keep ignoring my point. I can't see many examples of players who left who seemed to develop or significantly improve as players

This, unfortunately, is a glaring problem. I think the sample size is small enough that it genuinely might just be bad luck (Carbery had injury issues that were mostly Ireland related for example).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107713#Comment_122107713

They are very important yes, but then none of those were even a one score game…

I think he is a luxury that I'm happy enough for Leinster to have if he is happy to accept it. But I'm skeptical it is in the greater interests of Irish rugby, and at this stage if Leinster were on a tighter budget it wouldn't make sense.

07-05-2024 4:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107847#Comment_122107847

Are Leinster the only club in European or World rugby that are based in a large population centre where there are private schools in the locale?

ulsteru20s · 07-05-2024 4:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107841#Comment_122107841

I mean did Deegan significantly improve?

Carbery improved enough to be locked on ireland back up for a long time in an era where it was impossible to start. He probably would have looked better in a much much more loaded leinster team but i don't know if he would have been a better individual player.

Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3 · 07-05-2024 4:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107847#Comment_122107847

I know plenty of leinster fans who spend quite a lot of money every year sending their sons to a private schools, in the hope that they might be good enough to play rugby for leinster.

they didnt spend that money for them to end up in Belfast being boo'd by Ulster fans as they arent a local son and no kid in dublin grows up dreaming of playing for Ulster.

ulsteru20s · 07-05-2024 4:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107866#Comment_122107866

I would say they are the only club in that situation who have the type of in built union protections of their talent, yes. Right?

realhorrorshow · 07-05-2024 4:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107632#Comment_122107632

Do you think it's due to extreme pragmaticism (like an experienced quarterback sliding after getting the first rather than taking contact to make a few extra yards) or an actual fear of getting hurt? I think it's generally a good thing in possession - my main issue with Crowley is spending too much time in or at the bottom of rucks, whereas Prendergast is always on his feet. He will be an absolute liability in defence though at any decent level, unless he improves a lot.

Rugbyf565 · 07-05-2024 4:20pm

Keeping Deegan is quite rational actually. Leinster have the money to pay for the salary of a very reliable second string player, it keeps the squad strength good, why wouldn’t they?

ulsteru20s · 07-05-2024 4:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107868#Comment_122107868

Well, if you put it like that lol.

ersatz · 07-05-2024 4:22pm

jordi Murphy and Marty Moore two others who are relevant. Both excelled in Leinster and then fell down the ladder there and w Ireland, injuries had a lot to do with it but neither reinvented themselves successfully at Ulster. Not Ulsters fault necessarily although we have seen so so players come to Leinster and really improve. I’d include JGP and Lowe in that category, both were notable players but neither liked like ever being in a conversation about being in a world elite group yet the experience in Leinster turned them into those players. Ireland had a lot to do with that mind.

Podge_irl · 07-05-2024 4:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107632#Comment_122107632

I think this is all fair. He absolutely swipes at players in defence when he should be getting his body behind the tackle. I'm a massive fanboy for him in attack, but there is a lot of work needed on his defence. The thing is, that while I know putting on bulk alone won't help, he is genuinely a large dude so it should be fixable. But it needs a mentality shift also for sure.

Podge_irl · 07-05-2024 4:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107887#Comment_122107887

Moore would have fallen down the ladder at Leinster anyway (and had started to do so).

awec · 07-05-2024 4:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107713#Comment_122107713

Ah would you stop. Leinster win those games with or without Deegan. Deegan is critical to absolutely nothing at Leinster, other than being available to give all the guys who Leinster believe are better than he is (of which there are quite a few) a rest when needed. Of course from a Leinster point of view I'm sure they're delighted he's staying as if you can convince good players to accept a fairly mediocre position within the squad then that's of huge benefit to the club, provided the money is right.

The guy wants to stay, that's up to him at the end of the day. But let's not pretend that he's having a big impact at Leinster or coming close to fulfilling his potential. He is coasting. It will take an epidemic of injuries for him to get into a first choice Leinster 23. Even when Leinster put 6 forwards on the bench he hasn't got a sniff.

He lucked out picking up his Ireland cap due to circumstance, this decision means it's incredibly unlikely he'll ever get another one as he's very unlikely to ever feature in games that can influence his place in the Ireland rankings.

Ross Moloney is far more important to Leinster, far higher in the pecking chain, much more likely to be involved in big games than Deegan ever will be, and that's including when Snyman arrives next year, and he's heading for the door as it looks like his opportunities are set to become more limited.

Big difference in the mindset of these two players, one I can respect, the other leaves me a bit baffled. Imagine doing all the training sessions, all the gym sessions, and in the back of your head you know that as soon as the big games come around you're getting dropped like a stone.

And it's not even just looking at what's in front of him, he has to look at what's behind him too. Bizarre decision, to be honest (I'm referring specifically to his decision to stay at Leinster, not his decision not to sign for Ulster).

07-05-2024 4:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107867#Comment_122107867

Yeah, Deegan is a more well rounded player now than he was 5 years ago. He's developed a much grittier side to his game and is a far better defensive player and a much better line out player.

There are plenty of guys in the Leinster squad where they've made huge visual improvements in their overall game over the past 5-6 years; the examples I gave earlier being the most prominent examples (JGP, JVDF, Lowe & Keenan), but there are plenty of others too. Even a guy like Larmour (someone I've been critical of historically for not improving enough) has shown clear signs of improvement this year under high balls and defensively.

I do think there is plenty to suggest Carbery would have improved his overall skillset being coached by Lancaster than van Graan for the best part of the last 6 years.

Rugbyf565 · 07-05-2024 4:26pm

Prendergast has started 3 games this season, we’ve barely seen him seen him in action with a big pack behind him to be fair. Wait till the end of next season until we can make proper judgements on what kind of a player he is.

Rugbyf565 · 07-05-2024 4:27pm

My concerns around Prendergast's defence etc. are more to do with his apparent reticence to take contact (in attack and defence) rather than just his frame.
It would be one thing if he was putting himself in position to make hits and getting blown off physically - that is something you would be more confident could be solved for. To me though looking at him this season, I see a guy who I think shies away from physical contact in a way Johnny Sexton or Jack Crowley absolutely never did/do.
I don't think just putting more physical size on him will necessarily solve that problem unfortunately.

Referencing this above

07-05-2024 4:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107874#Comment_122107874

What are the "in built union protections" that Leinster have?

There are loads of big clubs around the world with significant catchment areas and plenty of private schools etc in their backyard who don't produce a fraction of the talent Leinster do.

Leinster take in good players into their academy, but they aren't the finished product at that point by any means. Leinster have a very clear track record of upskilling and developing players that they frankly don't get enough credit for.

AbusesToilets · 07-05-2024 4:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107898#Comment_122107898

I've been surprised that Lancaster hasn't signed any Leinster lads over to Paris. Would've figured guys like Ruddock, Moloney and Deegan would make for great pick ups for what he wants out of Racing

07-05-2024 4:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107898#Comment_122107898

This isn't the case - Leinster win those games specifically because of the quality of guys like Deegan. You keep swapping out those quality depth guys for kids and you get found out at that level now.

For him to get international recognition he has to be better than the two guys ahead of him at Leinster. He's training with them every day, and if he isn't capable of beating them out then he isn't worth international selection anyway. It's that simple. Moving to Ulster and playing in "first choice 23s" won't change that unless he's actually actively improving as a player.

ulsteru20s · 07-05-2024 4:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107901#Comment_122107901

He's a more well rounded squad player after being a very hyped u20s.

Most teams have examples of those types of development. Like just in Munster thinking of carbery… Coombes has been a much better development story. He went from basically not rated u20s to one of the best players in their URC win.

Also, if its a VanGraan thing, then he's gone. So, then now we'll see guys move to Munster. Ulster are a basketcase.. but Munster and Connacht aren't. So, now guys will move? I'd predict not.

AbusesToilets · 07-05-2024 4:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107944#Comment_122107944

The question is how much better does he have to perform to demonstrate his value? I've little doubt that if you swapped him in for Conan or Baird, that you'd notice any difference or decline in performance. Is he getting a fair shake when it comes to assessment, or is it simply that the incumbents are defaulted to regardless of whether there is no discernable difference in their play?

07-05-2024 4:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107876#Comment_122107876

I completely get your point here, and it's why I'm a bit more forgiving of it in attack. I'm a huge fan of him and want him to kick on and develop, but have had that nagging feeling this year (and really felt it in the SA games, particularly the Stormers) that he was shirking contact a bit too much for my liking.

07-05-2024 4:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107951#Comment_122107951

Yeah, I'd 100% say Munster are a much more attractive proposition for players to move to now than they would have been previously. They've a good and talented young core of players and a very highly regarded coaching ticket who have shown signs of clearly improving players and getting them to higher levels.

That isn't really the case at Ulster in recent years (blaming that on McFarland), but until there's someone new in-situ it's hard to say it'll change. A lot of Ulster players almost visibly regressed from c. 2021/22 to 23/24 - guys like James Hume, Michael Lowry, Robert Baloucoune and Nick Timoney (all of whom toured NZ with Ireland in 2022).

07-05-2024 4:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107960#Comment_122107960

There's no real evidence to say "incumbents are just defaulted to". Fans have a huge tendency to just base their prognostications on player's abilities based on what they see from players in matches, but that's max 10-15% of the actual time coaches see players.

There have been plenty of examples of players over the last few years at Leinster who've moved up and down the 'depth chart' based on strong training performances and strong match performances - Jamie Osborne & Joe McCarthy being two obvious recent examples.

AdamD · 07-05-2024 4:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107847#Comment_122107847

Do you genuinely believe Leinster Rugby spend €0 on schools rugby and underage development?

PMC83 · 07-05-2024 4:54pm

Ed Byrne to Cardiff is what I'm reading on a FB group, say it ain't so….

ulsteru20s · 07-05-2024 4:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107918#Comment_122107918

You can't play for ireland without being in ireland. That's normal. However that's the foundation of everything else.

The only avenue to gaining players when you can 'outbid' to my knowledge is offering senior deals to academy or pre academy players. That's it. You can't go to Jack Boyle and say 'come here and play loosehead and we'll pay you to be primary back up, plus some'.

Academy money is also so low that its an actual impediment to moving especially when other clubs in ireland can't offer you more. It seems to be straight senior deal or nothing. Most of the best unis are also in dublin, so if you are making 10k a year, why not go to university nearer home.

The normal pattern in sports is that good teams lose back ups to starting roles with more money elsewhere. That's not a factor in ireland.

Leinster do a very good job coaching but i cannot think of the last time someone went to a different academy in ireland that they wanted. Its essentially exclusive access.