Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122108028#Comment_122108028

It's not exclusive access though - and other provinces are free to approach Leinster's talent, as they very frequently do (multiple Leinster players in all three academies with a couple more rumoured this year). The players are absolutely free to make those choices.

You're overlooking two key components - (i) players want to play for the team they grow up supporting (this is a massive and significant driver) and (ii) Leinster have been by far the best coached, most stable and most attractive place for a high potential young player to go for the best part of a decade or more.

Academy money is low everywhere btw too.

Leinster do a very good job coaching but i cannot think of the last time someone went to a different academy in ireland that they wanted. Its essentially exclusive access.

The fact no one chose to go to another academy that you can think of does not equate to "exclusive access" or an "in built union protection" like you originally asserted. Not even remotely close.

El Vino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107935#Comment_122107935

Me too, I wonder if he has some sort of non compete for 12 or 24 months written into his exit package that means he is not allowed, there haven't even been any rumours of players going to bump up their deals. The alternative is none of the players he rates are willing to move.

pickarooney

Academy money is low which makes it completely unviable for most young players to move, pay rent and change college courses.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122108054#Comment_122108054

Who is making choices though? I follow u20s every year and i can't think of guys leaving leinster. They go because leinster didn't choose them.

It's the illusion of choice. If you have a system where the vast majority of times people stay, then rightly or wrongly, its set up for guys to stay.

And that is an advantage leinster have. It just is. No top 14 club have the protections leinster do. Guys would want to stay home, but other clubs would just pay more.

The pay more part is the important part.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122108040#Comment_122108040

Globally? Literally every country almost has a multitude of private schools and relatively large catchment areas around them.

There are something like 3,000 private schools in Australia, and only one professional rugby team in massive cities like Sydney (population 5.5m), Melbourne (5.2m), Brisbane (2.6m), with a similar enough dynamic in NZ (Auckland (1.4m) etc etc. )

There are a handful of professional rugby teams in the entire northern half of France (and only two top flight teams), and England has a multitude of some of the most expensive private schools in the world with facilities that would make Irish universities blush (never mind schools). South Africa has multiple expensive private schools with a huge rugby heritage and massive cities with only a handful of top level clubs also.

People act like Leinster is the only place in the world with private schools sometimes.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122108064#Comment_122108064

So many players are coming from fee schools backgrounds etc. For many moving to a galway, Limerick and being in an academy there will not be that expensive and the other province/their college or ail club can and do assist with rent, or anything else. College courses by and large are available across all cities and many players are doing online courses etc anyway

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122108076#Comment_122108076

Clubs have the option to pay more if they want to here too - Connacht did this with Sam Illo - they offered him a full contract when his only offer in Leinster was an academy deal. It's a prime example of what you're claiming can't happen here. If the other provinces want to attempt to do this regularly they could.

This has effectively happened with recent guys like Sam Prendergast and Paddy McCarthy too who Leinster have had to progress to senior contracts earlier than anticipated because they had other teams sniffing around them.

The reality is - if some of these guys are being well advised, they'll recognise, especially if they're high calibre elite prospects that they're better served (over the past decade) staying in Leinster where there is a better culture, better coaching and a better environment with a strong track record of progressing and developing young players. You're absolutely fooling yourself if you think the latter isn't the case.

letsbefair

It is entirely up to Max Deegan what he decides to do and he may have reasons that the mind readers on here no nothing about. Good luck to him, I for one am delighted with his decision to stay.

Rugbyf565

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122108022#Comment_122108022

Yes but that money goes towards developing player pathways for public schools or schools that wouldn’t traditionally have had the access to elite sports coaching, facilities and equipment that the likes of Blackrock or Michaels have. They have programmes at primary and secondary school level that are aimed at addressing this equality/access gap (that Eddie jones has harped on about before). I know that the majority of private school rugby grounds are funded through a mixture of fees and crowd funded campaigns by parents, donors and past pupils.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122108104#Comment_122108104

Connacht offered Sam Illo a senior deal. As far as I'm aware that's the ONLY loophole. And one i already mentioned.

That does have an effect. I'd guess almost everyone who gets a senior deal after one year had been offered that by someone else.

But other than that there is no squeeze at all on Leinster money wise from the other provinces. You can't offer any more except offering a 19 year old a senior deal. What about offering more money for someone like Boyle? Or a BETTER senior deal for Prendergast? What if Ulster wanted to double his pay and start him?

I honestly don't even see how you are arguing this.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122108146#Comment_122108146

The IRFU pay the academy salaries and do so at a flat level across all four provinces. Allowing the provinces to outbid each other and top up those academy deals in no way is a positive development for Irish rugby.

It doesn't increase the pool of players available, it just drives up the overall costs and creates a wage inflation environment generally. Same principle on allowing the provinces to outbid each other for each other's senior players (though I'd be more supportive of this in a more limited fashion).

The other provinces all have the same equal ability to approach any player they like, and lay a plan before that player for how they see that player developing with them and progressing to senior rugby. There are good quality universities across all four provinces which provide essentially a broad spectrum of underlying academic courses etc. Accommodation etc is generally materially cheaper outside of Dublin. So they absolutely have the ability to convince these guys they'd be better served moving to them instead of Leinster, they are just consistently unsuccessful at doing so.

Newsflash: that's not anyone's definition of a monopoly or any kind of in built protection from the IRFU.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122108170#Comment_122108170

Who said it would be a positive development?

I said it is a major advantage for Leinster and it obviously is.

The ability to 'lay a plan in front of someone' is not the same as the ability to pay them.

Again, no idea how this is an argument.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122108146#Comment_122108146

Maybe the other provinces could offer better coaching and a better chance to progress to senior caps etc?

If you think the answer is just giving provinces free rein to fire money at academy players then I don’t see much support and no chance the IRFU would allow it. Especially when you consider how questionable some of the decision the provinces make at the moment

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122108186#Comment_122108186

I mean if that worked the best players from other provinces would be at leinster. And you'd be naive to think they never offer.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122107898#Comment_122107898

It looks as if Molony has given up on trying to represent Ireland. I'm not judging him negatively for it. He can't select himself, and it wasn't looking as if he was going to achieve it.

If Deegan wants to represent Ireland (which clearly he does, going by his pronouncements) he's going to have to get past a number of players ahead of him, players who would be ahead of him for Ireland whether he was playing his rugby at Leinster or Ulster. He has chosen to stay and backed himself to battle them directly. He's given no indication his mindset is to coast or be happy playing second fiddle. That's stuff you've assumed.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122108198#Comment_122108198

Not sure what you mean by this

The provinces are able to create their own successful academy program and has nothing to do with Leinster

The answer all I hear when you ask anyone is “oh well Leinster something something”

The obsession with Leinster has nothing to do with Leinster, the provinces need to start planning for what suits them, not moaning because Leinster are doing what works for them

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122108205#Comment_122108205

Deegan is significantly more likely to fall down the pecking order at Leinster than move up it at this stage.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122108209#Comment_122108209

What i mean is that if all it takes is to get someone to move is 'we have good coaching and great systems' some elite guys would move TO the leinster academy.

That doesn't happen usually because it works the same the other way. Leinster would need to offer more money to get guys to leave.

Exclamation Marc

New contract for Brian Deeny.

Podge_irl

Should be a big uptick in game time for him and COT next season.

Clegg

Paddy McCarthy being promoted to a senior deal after just one year in the academy is interesting. Leinster generally don't do that unless they see something very promising and want to lock you down early.

Had an excellent u20's campaign and looks to have that physicality and athleticism which sets his brother apart from many.

VayNiice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122108083#Comment_122108083

I wouldn't say it's the same in NZ from my experience.

I was involved with the equivalent of senior cup rugby in one of the largest private schools in Wellington (almost 2000 students). It was nowhere near the set up in the likes of Blackrock or Michael's. The general school facilities were amazing but from a rugby point of view it was all fairly basic.

There was a huge emphasis put on soccer which I was surprised at initially.

Clegg

Ed Byrne signs for Cardiff. Best of luck to him. Great servant to Leinster.

https://twitter.com/Cardiff_Rugby/status/1787889883345817871?t=ngP4pn01_O9tPvFa_0dOqA&s=09

hold my beer

Leinster only getting allocated 2,950 tickets for the final, which is bloody ridiculous.

El Vino

My son played rugby in school in London and we played some of the top schools in the South East of the UK so I got to see some of the facilities first hand, Wellington, Dulwich College, Hampton and Harrow really stood out especially Wellington. One day we were there for a game and their senior XV were playing a Blackrock touring side, 18 all draw if I remember. Never seen Blackrock or Michaels facilities but if they are better than this they must be amazing. James Haskell I think is the last rugby international that went there. I know from experience that they all take scholarship boys from state schools - Ijoje and Billy V went to Harrow this way.

sydthebeat

Great singing for Cardiff

More power to himr

conquestscarer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122108380#Comment_122108380

The advantage to me seems to be they're playing rugby in Michaels and Blackrock in primary school. It means to get into the team you need to have a base level of skills from the very start.

VayNiice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122108380#Comment_122108380

Just for clarity, it's Wellington in New Zealand I'm referring to.

I'd say the school facilities in these English private schools must be amazing. I suppose the level of wealth in these schools is on another level to Dublin.

El Vino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122108435#Comment_122108435

No worries, I got that, name is a coincidence. I was really just pointing out other countries have amazing facilities but don't seem to churn out the same quantity of players Michaels & Blackrock do.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122108181#Comment_122108181

Because you’re overlooking the fact that these young players Leinster are recruiting are lads who are from Leinster and who grew up wanting to play for Leinster.

If it was the case that Leinster were hoovering up the best underage talent from the other provinces then I’d say fair enough you’ve a reasonable point but that isn’t the case here at all.