Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

Michael Zozimus Moran

Osborne looked assured at full back but he lacks speed and coordination. That may come but I’d be looking at fast tracking Cosgrave into that position with a view to backing up Keenan. TOB looks like a13 and would prefer Ringrose dropped than Larmour to accommodate him.

Clegg

Looking forward to having our Lions players back. Henshaw and Furlong were amongst the players of the series for me and Conan had a very strong tour overall as well.

I imagine they won't play for Leinster for at least a month after the season begins. They'll need rest. Probably Kelleher as well. Another chance to see some younger players stake a claim in their absence.

Former Former Former

Was there ever an announcement of who is not being kept on?

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117723190#Comment_117723190

It was a brilliant opportunity for Kelleher to learn from the other top players. He will have been training flat out but probably won't need the full recovery time the ones who lined out will need.

I think it's interesting to see how much Conan's reputation has been enhanced by lions selection. He wasn't Ireland no8, and if Doris was fit, I'm not sure he would have been leinster starting 8 either. I hope he can really kick on and take the initiative after this experience.

Clegg

Great to see that Bent is still playing.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1424444312809582596?s=09

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117724184#Comment_117724184

I think there is no doubt that Conan is the form 8 at the very least. If everyone is fit I think we're looking at Doris, VDF, Conan as the backrow.

But, there is no reason why that can't change. Connors snatched the 7 off VDF but when he went down, VDF played like a man possessed and with a point to prove and was simply outstanding.

It's a great position to be in, because as we know there is no guarantee we'll have everyone fit all the time.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117726125#Comment_117726125

It's horses for courses.

Against teams with a big pack, Ruddock is your man at 6 or maybe Baird. Against weaker teams, or if we're looking to play with width, Doris is your man.

VDF or Connors comes down to whoever is not injured/playing better.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117726125#Comment_117726125

I think the idea that Conan is the form no.8 is a narrative that had fallen out of his selection for all three tests. I don't think it was obvious that he was the form .no.8 during the 6N. He wasn't starting for Ireland let alone being seen as the best no.8 in the British Isles.

I'd love for Conan to be a tip top player, but I disagreed with his selection in the lions ( given his strengths are opposed to the lions gameplan and a big bulky no.8 would have been more congruence) and I'm not sure he'll even keep his place at leinster, let alone Ireland.

I think his selection for the lions has completely changed his position in the pecking order in the public's imagination. If stander were selected for the lions, I don't think we would have this same agreement that Conan was the form 8 in Ireland.

I've no problem with a horses for courses/form selection at 8, but Conan was the wrong 8 for the style.of play the lions chose, and I doubt it will carry over to domestic or international selection

Dubinusa

I think Osborne is suited better as a center. Cosgrove could be a 15 or wing. ROL will be under serious pressure to maintain his spot.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117726305#Comment_117726305

Baird is absolutely not a 6. He has never had a good performance for Leinster at 6. It should only be considered as a break glass in case of emergency choice. If you’re considering wanting a bulkier more physical 6 then it would be Murphy or Ruddock.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117726313#Comment_117726313

Which games was Conan not first choice for with Leinster and Ireland? The ones he was injured for or the ones he was coming back from injury for? From what I remember he was starting for both Ireland and Leinster from the time he regained fitness. We have no way of knowing how Doris’s lack of availability influenced that or didn’t. We will only see that once both are fit at the same time.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117726787#Comment_117726787

Both of those scenarios. When CJ announced his retirement, I don't remember anyone saying anything to the effect that he wasn't the starting 8 anyway. I think if there was a serious match (before the lions announcement) with CJ, Conan and Doris fit and available, Conan would not have been the first choice 8 of those 3. His form might have deserved it but they would have stuck with with other 2 and Conan would be a backup. But now the lions selection will force the issue and he will be seen as obvious first choice.

My issue is more with the conservative Irish selection, always picking the player with bigger reputation, regardless of current form.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727035#Comment_117727035

When CJ announced his retirement Conan had only been back from injury about 10 weeks. He had played 5 times for Leinster and twice for Ireland by then, with only 2 starts (for Leinster) in those 7 games. He had played feck all rugby in the previous 18 months. Of course nobody was talking about him being the best 8 in the country at that stage. I do remember, when the conversation about 8 came up, some people saying "people are forgetting about Jack Conan" though. He had kind of become the forgotten man because of injuries.

Buer

I wonder do people just have Conan down in their minds as a squad player generally and are finding it difficult to shake that pigeon hole they have him in. His biggest issue over the past 4 years has been injury. It's easy to forget that he started a game in the 2018 Grand Slam season (he went off with a shoulder injury) and also started the final test in Australia with Stander shifting across similar to the England match this year. Then he was absent for 18 months from Irish duty due to further injuries starting with a broken foot in the RWC. I've very little doubt that he'd have been first choice for Ireland if there was another game before the Lions announcement with Stander, Doris and Conan available. There's no real way they could omit him after the England showing.

Conan is the first choice No. 8 for Leinster. When rugby returned and himself and Doris were both available, Doris shifted to 6 to accommodate Conan's return from injury. Long term, Doris is likely to be the first choice given he's 6 years younger than Conan but, at this point in time, it's hard to see Conan not being the preferred option.

As Gatland said, he does exactly what is asked of him. He doesn't make mistakes. He started 3 tests. He didn't concede a penalty. He didn't miss a tackle. He was never turned over a single time in contact despite carrying more ball than anyone in the 3 matches. He turned over possession once when he reached for a poor pass from Price in the final test and couldn't gather it. He's not going to be in the running for World Rugby player of the year but he's incredibly solid and reliable up to an including the very highest level of the game.

The funny thing is that Conan is a far better player now than he was 5 years ago but opinions around him are probably more mixed than they were during the first couple of years of his career.

Richie_Rich89

It'll be interesting to see whether he can kick on and get to another level after the confidence boost and exposure to top quality rugby being a test Lion brings.

PMC83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117728191#Comment_117728191

I saw him in a Topaz in Wicklow once. Fired a pretty affirmative nod his way and was delighted to receive one back. Good times.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117723190#Comment_117723190

Conan was the stand out from the Irish players and probably gained the most from it. From question marks over him starting for ireland he is now nailed on if injury free

I even see a SA newspaper pick him in the team of the tournament which had a very very SA bias, one of only 3 Lions player on the team

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117726764#Comment_117726764

That's a bit narrow minded considering he's only played 3 games there if you include the La Rochelle game.

He has all the attributes to be a very good 6.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117728525#Comment_117728525

You were suggesting picking him ahead of Doris who has all the attributes of a 6. Who has performed there at a high level. Who was being narrow minded? Which attributes are we taking about? Baird is hardly physically imposing in stature. Baird is a great prospect and hopefully will be our starting second row with Ryan. He’s not a great prospect at 6 though. Nor is he a physical beast that you’d pick there against big packs.

AbusesToilets

We saw Baird's limitations against la Rochelle. He wasn't a capable replacement for Ruddock, in terms of the necessary physicality.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729420#Comment_117729420

I also suggested picking Ruddock ahead of Doris, don't get your nickers in a twist. We have a plethora of back row options and any number of possible combinations. Leavy could also play 6 if he gets back fit. I absolutely think Baird could be a better option than Doris at 6, for certain games. I literally couldn't be more open minded about our back row options.

You make the point that he's not physically imposing, and then go on to say you want him in the 2nd row, which I found strange. Surely being physically imposing is much more important for a lock than a 6?

I tend to agree that he's not the most physically imposing of locks (that will improve with age, he's a baby for a lock), but he's still 6'6 and 112kgs, which makes him more physically imposing than all of our back rowers.

He's extremely athletic, powerful, absolutely rapid and a fantastic natural footballer, which leads me to believe he could be a great option in the back row for us. Right now, I think he lacks the size and nasty edge to his game that a lock would ideally have.

I certainly wouldn't be writing him off as a 6 altogether, based on one game where our entire pack got completely beasted.

Lsdrugbyfan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729496#Comment_117729496

he's been poor at 6 for Leinster A too, it's not just one game.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729501#Comment_117729501

I didn't see those games. Was he poor because he was playing 6, or was he just poor?

I appreciate he didn't excel there this season. But I wouldn't be writing it off completely as some here seem to be. He has the attributes to be a very good 6.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729496#Comment_117729496

If I was wearing knickers, I can assure you they would be sitting perfectly.

You could just as easily be describing Doris here “He's extremely athletic, powerful, absolutely rapid and a fantastic natural footballer, which leads me to believe he could be a great option in the back row for us. Right now, I think he lacks the size and nasty edge to his game that a lock would ideally have.” So I really don’t see the advantage of playing Baird out of position there.

it wasn’t just one game. If it was I wouldn’t have said anything. I’d be inclined to disregard the La Rochelle game.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729941#Comment_117729941

Eh yeah you could, that's why Doris plays in the back row. Nobody is arguing that Doris isn't a back row so I don't see how that's relevant.

You'd play Baird there because he's bigger, more physical and a better lineout option, all of which can and will come in handy in certain games.

I'm not saying "drop Doris", I'm saying Baird at 6 should be an option, just like Doris, or Ruddock.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729984#Comment_117729984

You said pick Baird ahead of Doris against big packs. So I’m sorry for reading that as picking Baird ahead of Doris. My mistake.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117730362#Comment_117730362

Yeah, for certain games where size and an extra lineout option is needed.

That's not dropping Doris.

Remember a couple of years ago when they went with Leavy at 8 away to Bath, then Conan started the following week at home. Conan wasn't dropped, it was just a horses for courses selection based on what was needed for that game.

Baird should absolutely be considered an option at 6.

Must love hardship

Has Ringrose ever had much game time on the wing? Would love to see him have a spin there Similar to how Australia might have played Adam Ashley Cooper on the wing or France play Fickou 11 for at least a game each nations. Would be a better defender than some current options out there..

Would love to see 12 frawley, 13 henshaw, 14 Ringrose, 15 Keenan.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117730494#Comment_117730494

I never mentioned dropping anyone. I’m simply pointing out Baird has shown nothing at all at 6 that would suggest picking him ahead of Doris for any game. If you want a physical 6 you go for Murphy or Ruddock, possibly Leavy if he gets fit. Baird isn’t particularly physical, so the only real benefit over Doris at 6 would be the lineout.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117730599#Comment_117730599

I'd love to see it

Won't happen though.

Although Leo and Stuart are the most open of all he coaches in Ireland to experimenting with different backline combinations.

Carbery at 15 was working like a dream.

Swapping Larmour and Keenan was a stroke of genius not just for Leinster but for Ireland.

Hell, they played Ross Byrne at 13 for f*ck sake.